Do you lay line differently in wrecks vs. caves?

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05-11-2011 01:52 PM
gsk3

Do you lay line differently in wrecks vs. caves?

This topic came up on another forum and I thought I'd see what the line-laying experts here thought. For those of you who dive both, do you lay line differently in wrecks vs. caves, and if so how and why?

Specifically:
-Do you always do primary and secondary ties to start?
-Do you tie more frequently in a wreck vs. a cave?
-Do you change where you lay the line?
-Do you add things like strobes in key places?
-Do you still use cookies and arrows in a wreck?

I'm speaking mostly of wreck penetration here. Comments on laying line Jersey-style to get you back to the anchor line in low vis situations are welcome also.
05-11-2011 02:10 PM
Jaydubya

Line in a wreck? Gasp. Progressive penetration, man :D
05-11-2011 02:34 PM
JamieZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaydubya

Line in a wreck? Gasp. Progressive penetration, man :D

Ditto except I drop glow sticks every 20ft or so and write my name in the rust at every corner.

Always primary outside the wreck, tie off every 15ft after that or twice at corners, one before, one after. Same goes for going down stairs, top and bottom. Never put arrows in, I dont leave line in the wreck. The only time strobes are used is for visual reference outside the wreck, such as where an anchor line is or where to get back on the wall, never used in an area that can be silted out.

I tie off more because of the amount of random things that can fall from the ceiling or off the walls, that and everything is rusted and sharp
05-11-2011 02:40 PM
gsk3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaydubya

Line in a wreck? Gasp. Progressive penetration, man :D

Gah! I almost included a comment that no one should dare mention progressive penetration, but I figured doing so would derail the conversation immediately. Guess I was wrong regardless! :-)
05-11-2011 03:38 PM
Jaydubya

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsk3

Gah! I almost included a comment that no one should dare mention progressive penetration, but I figured doing so would derail the conversation immediately. Guess I was wrong regardless! :-)

I like the answer JamieZ gave. It might also be wise to use thicker wreck line instead of cave line.
05-11-2011 07:20 PM
Bobby

When laying line inside a wreck I lay it in the easiest fashion to help me back out of the wreck. Also my tie offs are more sure to keep them from being cut and secure. In caves I am more careful to keep it so others can also lay their line and I am not as worried about possibly loosing a tie off. I don't change line size from one or the other but do pay close attention in wrecks for barnacles and things that can cut my line.

Bobby
05-12-2011 03:19 PM
OutlawCaver

I would lay line in a cave until the reel is empty....LOL. Wrecks?.....what are they. If there is no limestone, there is no interest in something manmade.
05-12-2011 03:26 PM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutlawCaver

I would lay line in a cave until the reel is empty....LOL. Wrecks?.....what are they. If there is no limestone, there is no interest in something manmade.

I have been wanting to say that since the thread started :-D
05-12-2011 05:47 PM
gsk3

Quote:

Originally Posted by FW

I have been wanting to say that since the thread started :-D

Surely some of y'all take advantage of all that rusted steel to the east :-D
05-12-2011 06:22 PM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsk3

Surely some of y'all take advantage of all that rusted steel to the east :-D

Not me, I have way too many caves yet to look at, than spend time soaking in saltwater :roll:
05-12-2011 07:04 PM
Greenwood_60

I hate saltwater! Of course my GF and dive buddy was born on an island in the Caribbean... so I'm screwed.
05-12-2011 07:42 PM
RGU

I rairly use a line in a wreck but then most of the gear I use for wreck diving is different than cave gear. You don't always go in and out the same way.
05-12-2011 08:52 PM
kwinter

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieZ

Always primary outside the wreck, tie off every 15ft after that or twice at corners, one before, one after. Same goes for going down stairs, top and bottom. Never put arrows in, I dont leave line in the wreck. The only time strobes are used is for visual reference outside the wreck, such as where an anchor line is or where to get back on the wall, never used in an area that can be silted out.

I tie off more because of the amount of random things that can fall from the ceiling or off the walls, that and everything is rusted and sharp

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGU

I rairly use a line in a wreck but then most of the gear I use for wreck diving is different than cave gear. You don't always go in and out the same way.

Then do a cleanup dive to get your reel back. If you can't see light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, then its just as foolish to not run a line in a wreck as it is in a cave. Sometimes there's another exit and sometimes there isn't.
05-12-2011 09:05 PM
gsk3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

I hate saltwater! Of course my GF and dive buddy was born on an island in the Caribbean... so I'm screwed.

But at least she'll be dry doing it. :-)
05-12-2011 09:05 PM
gsk3

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGU

I rairly use a line in a wreck but then most of the gear I use for wreck diving is different than cave gear. You don't always go in and out the same way.

And...PP comment number 2 ;-)
05-12-2011 09:27 PM
RGU

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwinter

+1

Then do a cleanup dive to get your reel back. If you can't see light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, then its just as foolish to not run a line in a wreck as it is in a cave. Sometimes there's another exit and sometimes there isn't.

Clean up dive? You have me rolling on the floor!
There is a difference between a wreck diver, and a cave diver diving wrecks.
05-16-2011 12:24 PM
dive1dennis

Quote:

Originally Posted by FW

Not me, I have way too many caves yet to look at, than spend time soaking in saltwater :roll:

I have to chime in. All you salt haters don't forget that you can have wreck diving without salt! Some of the best wreck diving around is in freshwater!
I may not live within an easy drive of the caves, but I really love both cave diving and Great Lakes wreck diving ----- all without the salt!
05-16-2011 01:16 PM
Skorpiov

Quote:

Originally Posted by dive1dennis

I really love both cave diving and Great Lakes wreck diving ----- all without the salt!

I feel sorta dumb admitting this, but I thought the Great Lakes were salt water.
05-16-2011 01:23 PM
Sharky1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieZ

Always primary outside the wreck, tie off every 15ft after that or twice at corners, one before, one after. Same goes for going down stairs, top and bottom. Never put arrows in, I dont leave line in the wreck. The only time strobes are used is for visual reference outside the wreck, such as where an anchor line is or where to get back on the wall, never used in an area that can be silted out.

I tie off more because of the amount of random things that can fall from the ceiling or off the walls, that and everything is rusted and sharp

+2

The only modification is that when I dive solo (which is typically the case on wrecks), I'll often leave a second strobe on the primary tie-off to make it obvious that there is someone in there. I figure if I'm not back on boat at the appointed time, someone might care enough to come look.

For those that saw my U-853 video you'll notice that I didn't run a line. The (slightly flawed) (lack of) logic was that it is a very easily navigated, straight passage. The flaw of course was there was a dead end on the return to the exit. Not a big deal that day, but on another wreck, another time, another complication....
05-16-2011 01:44 PM
OFG-1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skorpiov

I feel sorta dumb admitting this, but I thought the Great Lakes were salt water.

No but the damn things are too damn cold!
05-16-2011 02:19 PM
gsk3

Quote:

Originally Posted by dive1dennis

I have to chime in. All you salt haters don't forget that you can have wreck diving without salt! Some of the best wreck diving around is in freshwater!
I may not live within an easy drive of the caves, but I really love both cave diving and Great Lakes wreck diving ----- all without the salt!

Yeah, but...how do you run line in Great Lakes wrecks? :-)
05-16-2011 03:00 PM
Sharky1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsk3

Yeah, but...how do you run line in Great Lakes wrecks? :-)

It needs to be tied to an external object not associated with protected wrecks, then run through without actually touching anything. They make neutrally (fresh water) buoyant, flexible line that holds its shape for just that purpose. :roll:
05-16-2011 09:23 PM
dive1dennis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skorpiov

I feel sorta dumb admitting this, but I thought the Great Lakes were salt water.

The only saltwater we find is the sweat on the inside of the DS :) That does happen on the surface on those (rare) hot days out on the lakes! It goes away when you drop in!
05-16-2011 09:25 PM
dive1dennis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharky1948

....They make neutrally (fresh water) buoyant, flexible line that holds its shape for just that purpose. :roll:

That I did not know....... But I'm not sure I would want line that did not behave like I am used to.
05-17-2011 08:07 AM
Sharky1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by dive1dennis

That I did not know....... But I'm not sure I would want line that did not behave like I am used to.

Uhhhhhhhh.....you did see the smiley didn't you? :smt043
05-17-2011 12:21 PM
dive1dennis

Oops, :oops: must have been that beer I was drinking last night.....:drinkers:
05-18-2011 08:00 AM
sskasser

I'll let ya know ;) I'm heading up to do my first Great Lakes dives this summer! You can take the girl out of the cave, but can ya take the cave out of the girl? Not likely ;)
05-18-2011 08:41 AM
JamieZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

I'll let ya know ;) I'm heading up to do my first Great Lakes dives this summer! You can take the girl out of the cave, but can ya take the cave out of the girl? Not likely ;)

Where abouts are you going?
05-18-2011 08:47 AM
Sludge

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieZ

Where abouts are you going?

There can't be THAT many dive sites. I mean, come on, they're LAKES! :smt102
05-18-2011 08:49 AM
OFG-1

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

You can take the girl out of the cave........

Reminds me of date night in high school.
05-18-2011 09:06 AM
JamieZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

There can't be THAT many dive sites. I mean, come on, they're LAKES! :smt102

Yeah, its a small area :). Its only 21% of the worlds fresh water supply.

or is it salt water?
05-18-2011 09:11 AM
sskasser

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieZ

Where abouts are you going?

I'm hoping to get on the Brunswick and Carlingford, but I'll be thrilled with where ever the Southwind drops me this first time out! I'm heading to Dutch in a few weeks for a practice run with my cold water kit. Brrrrrrr!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFG-1

Reminds me of date night in high school.

We dated in high school? Wow! That explains a lot! :D
05-18-2011 09:39 AM
JamieZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

I'm hoping to get on the Brunswick and Carlingford, but I'll be thrilled with where ever the Southwind drops me this first time out! I'm heading to Dutch in a few weeks for a practice run with my cold water kit. Brrrrrrr!

We dated in high school? Wow! That explains a lot! :D

Jimmy and his father are good folk, great operation, and a great boat. Erie not so great for a first time experience but you'll still have a blast. If you can finagle it, head to the 1000 islands, which is about 4 hours from where you will be. Better wrecks, no thermoclines, warmer water (73f in August, top to bottom). If you consider it and our schedules mesh I'll take you on the Jodrey, its worth the drive. There is a few people on here that will confirm this that you probably know. Jimmy Clark and KennyP, think Jimmy has done 6 or so dives on her. Its a very impressive wreck. http://www.northerntechdiver.com/wre...rey/jodrey.php
05-18-2011 09:39 AM
Skorpiov

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

I'll let ya know ;) I'm heading up to do my first Great Lakes dives this summer! You can take the girl out of the cave, but can ya take the cave out of the girl? Not likely ;)

I can tell you it doesn't work with trailer parks...
05-18-2011 09:55 AM
sskasser

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieZ

Jimmy and his father are good folk, great operation, and a great boat. Erie not so great for a first time experience but you'll still have a blast. If you can finagle it, head to the 1000 islands, which is about 4 hours from where you will be. Better wrecks, no thermoclines, warmer water (73f in August, top to bottom). If you consider it and our schedules mesh I'll take you on the Jodrey, its worth the drive. There is a few people on here that will confirm this that you probably know. Jimmy Clark and KennyP, think Jimmy has done 6 or so dives on her. Its a very impressive wreck. http://www.northerntechdiver.com/wre...rey/jodrey.php

Very cool! Once I get my feet wet on the cold stuff (well, hopefully not actually wet!), I may take you up on that! The Jodrey does indeed look impressive! Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skorpiov

I can tell you it doesn't work with trailer parks...

Mess with me, mess with my whole trailer park! :D
05-18-2011 10:04 AM
Sharky1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

I'm heading to Dutch in a few weeks for a practice run with my cold water kit. Brrrrrrr!

When are you going to be at Dutch? Maybe I'll bump into you there.
05-18-2011 10:06 AM
kwinter

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

I'm heading to Dutch in a few weeks for a practice run with my cold water kit. Brrrrrrr!

Details Shirley? Some of us northern folks wouldn't mind getting to see you while you're here.

Ken
05-18-2011 10:11 AM
Sharky1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwinter

Details Shirley? Some of us northern folks wouldn't mind getting to see you while you're here.

Ken

You're way too slow on the keyboard Ken!
05-18-2011 10:18 AM
JamieZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharky1948

When are you going to be at Dutch? Maybe I'll bump into you there.

Mike how far are you from Dutch? Dont forget to let me know when you and your wife are back in this area,,,,,if you come in the summer :)
05-18-2011 10:21 AM
Sharky1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieZ

Mike how far are you from Dutch? Dont forget to let me know when you and your wife are back in this area,,,,,if you come in the summer :)

I'm about 2 hours from Dutch. I'm at Dutch periodically...skills and such. Hoping to get my wife to try some colder water diving there when it warms up.
05-18-2011 10:56 AM
kwinter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharky1948

I'm at Dutch periodically...skills and such.

I can vouch for that. He is usually at Dutch desparately seeking some skills and such. Now if only he could find them somewhere........
05-18-2011 11:37 AM
sskasser

Wow! That would be GREAT to get to see some of y'all!!! No fair laughing at the blue southern popsicle girl, though! :D

The plan is to arrive there Friday night, June 17th, and dive all day Saturday and Sunday.

Do they sell skills at Dutch? I could use some, too! Anybody got a Mastercard I can borrow? :smt100
05-18-2011 11:52 AM
Jaydubya

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

Do they sell skills at Dutch? I could use some, too! Anybody got a Mastercard I can borrow? :smt100

Why? Are you diving back mount? ;)
05-18-2011 12:27 PM
kwinter

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

Wow! That would be GREAT to get to see some of y'all!!! No fair laughing at the blue southern popsicle girl, though! :D

The plan is to arrive there Friday night, June 17th, and dive all day Saturday and Sunday.

Do they sell skills at Dutch? I could use some, too! Anybody got a Mastercard I can borrow? :smt100

Oh well. I'll be diving warm water in Mexico that weekend. Sorry I'll miss you.

Ken
05-18-2011 12:45 PM
sskasser

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaydubya

Why? Are you diving back mount? ;)

OUCH! Yes, I don't think I want to try gearing up SM on a rocking Lakes boat. I now have two sets of doubles in the gear room, in addition to the several sets of SM tanks, stages, etc. I wonder if I can claim "diving" as a dependent? It sure costs like one!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwinter

Oh well. I'll be diving warm water in Mexico that weekend. Sorry I'll miss you.

Ken

Dang Ken! Where're your priorities? I can't believe you'd give up diving Dutch to go to Mexico! :D Have fun and come back with pictures! I can't wait to get back down there!
05-18-2011 12:56 PM
kwinter

Our last day will be snorkeling with whale sharks off Holbox. You better believe I'll have photos and video!
05-18-2011 01:06 PM
Sharky1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

Wow! That would be GREAT to get to see some of y'all!!! No fair laughing at the blue southern popsicle girl, though! :D

The plan is to arrive there Friday night, June 17th, and dive all day Saturday and Sunday.

Do they sell skills at Dutch? I could use some, too! Anybody got a Mastercard I can borrow? :smt100

Bummer! I'll be diving the Coimbra those days. If that falls through (e.g., weather), I'll see you at Dutch!
(Yeah, I'm off on my priorities too.)

Mike
05-18-2011 01:25 PM
JamieZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

OUCH! Yes, I don't think I want to try gearing up SM on a rocking Lakes boat. I now have two sets of doubles in the gear room, in addition to the several sets of SM tanks, stages, etc. I wonder if I can claim "diving" as a dependent? It sure costs like one!

Dang Ken! Where're your priorities? I can't believe you'd give up diving Dutch to go to Mexico! :D Have fun and come back with pictures! I can't wait to get back down there!

http://www.osprey-dive.com/thesouthwind.cfm

She dont rock to much, good size boat. Unless you try to go out on New Years Day like I did with them one year, we had easy 10ft plus waves, not rollers, never made it all the way to the wreck before turning around, got to the dock and the news team was there waiting to hear all about a bunch of nuts on the lake in the dead of a freezing winter.
Lake Erie is shallow, think like 225 at its deepest, so it tends to get rough quick (makes for good shipwreck territory) and viz isnt always the greatest.
05-18-2011 01:31 PM
WEPIV

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

I'm heading to Dutch in a few weeks for a practice run with my cold water kit. Brrrrrrr!

Shirley, It's been awhile (2006) since I was up at Dutch but I went there to see how I would do in 40 degree water with a rented 7mm farmer john I got from the near by dive shop.
It was mid March and I somehow managed to stay in the water for about 90 minutes with the 7mm wetsuit and my normal tropical gloves, booties and hood.
I remember the last 15 minutes or so though being ready to get out!
Is this your first time at Dutch? I enjoyed seeing the pump house building and underwater trees. It was a nice friendly place as I went back again later while I was up there between ocean wreck dives.
I couldn't find any going cave passage there though....
05-18-2011 01:36 PM
Jaydubya

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

OUCH! Yes, I don't think I want to try gearing up SM on a rocking Lakes boat. I now have two sets of doubles in the gear room, in addition to the several sets of SM tanks, stages, etc. I wonder if I can claim "diving" as a dependent? It sure costs like one!

Just teasing of course. We talked to you at OG Sunday morning and you didn't seem too pleased with the new setup at that time.

If you figure out how to claim diving as a dependent let us all know!
05-18-2011 03:09 PM
sskasser

LOL, well, it looks like I've already scared Mike and Ken out PA :D

Jamie, that don't sound nuts to me! But then...consider the source :smt081

Jaydubya, you are quite right! I was severely missing my SM on Sunday! It got better, well, until I had to get out of the water with them things on my back! :D It was great seeing ya, even in my time of distress ;)

Gene, yes, this will be my first time at Dutch. I'm really looking forward to it! Don't worry, we'll find the going passage and tell ya all about it! ;)

GSK3...sorry for the hijack!
05-18-2011 03:19 PM
WEPIV

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

GSK3...sorry for the hijack!

You're just so darn popular...
05-18-2011 04:56 PM
gsk3

No worries.

You going to be at Dutch this weekend? I can whine about the hijack in person :clapper. I mean...go diving with ya :diver

Ari
05-18-2011 09:07 PM
RGU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

There can't be THAT many dive sites. I mean, come on, they're LAKES! :smt102

More shipwrecks than most people can dive in a life time; and that dosen't count the wrecks yet to be found. I know of two teams dragging side scan sonar every day they can get out right now.
We are currently diving in 39 degree water. The Lakes aren't just cold. they are dark and deep.
05-19-2011 07:35 AM
Sharky1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGU

More shipwrecks than most people can dive in a life time; and that dosen't count the wrecks yet to be found. I know of two teams dragging side scan sonar every day they can get out right now.
We are currently diving in 39 degree water. The Lakes aren't just cold. they are dark and deep.

And for us NE divers, the preservation of the wrecks in that cold, freshwater are incredible to see!!! (Of course, we all have to dive with our hands shackled behind our backs to help us resist the temptations....)
05-19-2011 08:00 AM
DogDiver

When laying line in Great Lakes wrecks the only thing I changed was the thickness of my line. Often in wrecks I would use 48# line because of the abrasion on rusty sharp metal found in wrecks and using dry gloves. Other than that, no other changes. Saved my ass once diving the engine room on The Cederville in the Straits of Mackinac a few years ago. Lost bouyancy in there and created a 100% siltout. Rust, engine oil, greese.....very nasty. Had to cut myself out of my tangled line too. Then exited with my buddy just like any drill we learned in our Cave Courses.
05-19-2011 08:06 AM
RGU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharky1948

And for us NE divers, the preservation of the wrecks in that cold, freshwater are incredible to see!!! (Of course, we all have to dive with our hands shackled behind our backs to help us resist the temptations....)

As one who dove them before they all became protected -I had a good friend who never went out without at least two 30 gallon lift drums strapped to the top of his Great Lakes fish tug- I find it better to always carry a camera of some kind when I'm diving them now.
05-19-2011 08:20 AM
sskasser

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsk3

No worries.

You going to be at Dutch this weekend? I can whine about the hijack in person :clapper. I mean...go diving with ya :diver

Ari

Nope, Florida caves this weekend. I'll be at Dutch June 18-19. Maybe we'll see ya then! Whine away! :D
05-19-2011 12:27 PM
quickean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

There can't be THAT many dive sites. I mean, come on, they're LAKES! :smt102

Yeah once you come up and dive them you'll see... They are more like fresh water oceans with thousands upon thousands of shipwrecks scattered over them.
05-26-2011 01:00 AM
TraceMalin

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsk3

This topic came up on another forum and I thought I'd see what the line-laying experts here thought. For those of you who dive both, do you lay line differently in wrecks vs. caves, and if so how and why?

Specifically:
-Do you always do primary and secondary ties to start?
-Do you tie more frequently in a wreck vs. a cave?
-Do you change where you lay the line?
-Do you add things like strobes in key places?
-Do you still use cookies and arrows in a wreck?

I'm speaking mostly of wreck penetration here. Comments on laying line Jersey-style to get you back to the anchor line in low vis situations are welcome also.

Always primary tie-off outside or to a clearly safe exit if exterior tie-off point isn't present. Secondary just inside wreck. Same principle as cave diving.

You tend to tie more frequently in wrecks since most cave dives are done where permanent lines are present. But, it depends. Novice guidelines in wrecks like the Spiegel Grove are poorly placed. Most wrecks are best explored by combining running line with learning the wreck. There is a greater chance of breaking the line on the sharp metal of a wreck.

If lost in a wreck away from the line, locating your line may be more difficult due to many right angles, bulkheads, dead ends, and insane number of entanglement and entrapment hazards. You may require longer lines on safety reels and even another primary for a safety. Line is often best laid low in wrecks and caves, but may change based upon environment or available tie-off points. The important thing is not to create entanglement hazards or place line in traps.

Exits in wrecks even with good technique might be silty. Strobes are an option to aid in wreck diving safety, but should never replace good directional awareness and guideline skills. For example, if you were lost in a wreck and found another way out, a strobe on the anchor line might allow you to spot it in poor visibility. Returning to a stable environmental tool like the anchor line in a low gas situation quickly could expedite the ascent and allow one to conserve gas during deco by hanging onto the line rather than needlessly waste gas through buoyancy control with the lungs during a free ascent - especially when the diver is stressed or tired from getting out of a bad situation in the first place.

While popping a bag is an option, a boat without a chase boat might break down at the most inopportune time. Ours broke down on a shallow wreck today 2 hours after we left the strong current of the Spiegel Grove.

Some wrecks such as artificial reefs would lend themselves to permanent lines with arrows allowing interesting tours for trained divers. Arrows are an option. Long penetrations could be aided with strategic placement of arrows for comfort during silty exits or in the event of a loss of light. An arrow could also indicate a buddy has left during a lost buddy situation. A back-up light on the guideline could also help communicate an exit. Leave the guideline in place for a lost buddy and mark the position you last saw your buddy for when your buddy locates the line or for rescue/recovery teams. A cookie may work, so would an arrow pointing out, the reel, or a back-up light. Running a line back to a tie-off within reach of the anchor or upline is acceptable for both low and high visibility diving. A quick road home may save a life.

While many techniques may be cross referenced, each environment is unique and the style of diving depending upon location and conditions would dictate acceptable procedures. Every wreck and every cave provides a unique challenge for the casual or dedicated explorer to dive within his or her training and abilities. What do you do in a given situation? As Rich Courtney so sagely put it at Cave East last week when we were discussing a jump procedure, "It depends." Procedures and rules are guidelines and a diver needs to use common sense and sometimes improvisation to survive. In both cave diving and wreck diving, "Be trained and don't exceed the level of one's training," is a good place to start. Just like wreck divers don't know what they don't know inside a cave, a cave diver might not have all the information for surviving a wreck.