Exploration lines and arrows

Hi guys, this is my first post on the forum, my name is Mauro and i teach Cave Diving in Mexico.
What do you think about original exploration lines and markers :arrowred? I mean granted that everything is done properly and safety is respected, should they be considered part of the cave or can anybody change them with no consideration of the explorer efforts?
I know what people think down here in Mexico but i am curious to know the opinion of cave divers in Florida and in other communities in general.
Thanks for reading, Mauro.

While it's nice to see original lines, they do get old and start to break down. This presents a danger to divers in those passages. I have replaced lines in systems when they needed to be replaced and when I needed knotted line to conduct a proper survey. I do keep the original markers in place. Safety has to come first, though.

No doubt that breaking arrows, soft arrows that double up with line tension, green covered arrows (algae) and stuff like that need to be replaced. I think that no good arrow should be replaced just for the sake of it.
Regarding not knotted lines nobody has the survey of, i think they do not make much sense, is it exploration when you have no idea where you have been?
Thanks Mauro.

I think original exploration arrows should not be touched and always be left in place, the original explorers are part of the history of the cave, they are the ones who put all the effort in exploring and mapping the caves for everyone else to then dive and enjoy.
I think unless an arrow is broken. damaged etc.. they should remain in place, if the line needs to be replaced or rerouted it should be done by said explorers when possible and if not the original arrows should be placed on the rerouted new line no matter what.

I find it really cool to see the names of the original explorers, when I look at an original exploration arrow and read the name or what it might say I am looking at a piece of history placed there on the first dive and it makes the whole thing more "genuine" so to speak, than a generic arrow placed there after the fact.

A few people have been on exploration dives with me and were the first to dive a few areas of some caves here, I would not even think to remove those arrows.

In addition to the historical aspect of the cave (which I always find fascinating) It is also a form of respect due to the original explorers whoever they might be, I find it very disrespectful and IMHO totally out of line to jump in a cave you are not exploring, remove arrows and replace them.

I am pretty sure that people who do this sort of thing are jealous and were not part of the original team and use "safety" and "line routing" as a lame excuse for such actions, if a line is laid so unsafe or arrows placed so dangerously that it needs to be replaced then find out who is working the cave and ask them to either do it or permission to do so.

My logic to this? imagine diving a cave and seeing original Sheck Exley or Hassemayer arrows, no matter who the original explorers are famous or not they are part of the history of the cave and should be left in place.

I pretty much agree with Rob.

On the one hand, I understand why some folks like to see historic line/arrows, to me it's not that big of a deal. The original explorers should be surveying the cave they find, and with that, they should publish it, and therefore they get "credit."

To me, folks shouldn't go changing line willy nilly in caves that can cause confusion with other frequent visitors. But to me, the line and arrows are "junk" that we introduce in a sort of temporary (in a geologic sense) and so I just don't get that worked up about it.

As Rob stated, safety comes first.

I agree but no matter what if a line needs to be replaced do it and then reposition the original arrows (if not broken of course), I find it out of line to replace original arrows with blank ones or worse one's with your name on it when you had nothing to do with the original exploration.

Replacing or rerouting lines IMHO gives a person zero rights to place a permanent arrow with they're name on it, maybe a blank one if absolutely necessary but with your name on it no way.

I think safety should not be an excuse to remove arrows and place your own.

I do not get worked up about it but there is 99% of the time always a choice as to removing or leaving original exploration arrows in place and I just think that the correct choice should be to leave the original one's in place.

I would be super pissed off if someone just went into a cave I found, explored and mapped and replaced arrows or added theirs when they had nothing to do with the exploration, in fact I find that sort of behavior downright disrespectful no matter how you look at it.

Obviously safety first but I think that every effort should be made to keep the original arrows in place and not use maintenance etc.. as an excuse to remove arrows, arrows will break here and there but few really need to be replaced.

Maybe in Florida with super strong flow and such they need to be replaced not sure but I seriously doubt it, I heard (might be wrong) that almost none of Sheck's Exley's arrows are still in place at all when he dove explored and mapped a huge amount of caves in Florida, is this theft as souvenirs or people just replacing arrows that could have been left in place on newly replaced line?

All things being equal safety wise would that not be way cooler to see original arrows rather than generic replacement done way after the fact?

I have many of my lines and arrows replaced over the years, it has never been an issue for me. To be honest I have never paid much attention to what arrow I put in when laying line. I was putting an arrow in a few years ago and after the dive my teammate asked me what the letters meant. I had picked another persons arrow up from another cave and placed it on the line without paying any attention.

The dorf markers in EN were cool to see but with the traffic that system gets now it is better with gold line and plastic arrows. I guess having the experience of diving systems before gold line and good markers is enough for me.

Bobby

hi Mauro and welcome to hell..!! :D
For your first post you did choose the right topic I must say, good for you.

I have an idea why it's being done...simply because he/she/they, can do it without putting safety on the line so to speak and without burning their fingers. Remember when you were a kid playing with matches..?? You had to experience an intense burning sensation instead of listening to your parents...and get burned! IN a way you enjoyed 'not' doing what they told you, just to piss them off. Here, in Mexico, what is happening with the lines and arrows it's the same thing. There is no protocol or law or nobody telling you not to take original arrows, so you feel even better and you know you are going to piss people off. That's your driving force every morning!! Whoever does that is just an adult refusing to get old!! :D

Sad but true.
It is even more sad when we start not to care anymore. Turning a blind eye does not make it better.

I don't think any permanent arrow in a cave should have anything written on it except the distance to the exit. I've never pulled an arrow and probably never will, but that's my opinion.

What really piss me off is when the new arrow doesn't help us to navigate the cave. I explain:

Take systema chan hol. first time I jumps in chan hol, every arrow was name and mark. By simply swiming on the main line, you can understand where the jump go and where loop can be close. Now if you dive in chan hol all arrow are blank and you have no clue where your going.

Few week ago, I went to dive/film in muchachos (video will come soon:roll:)
I don't know who explore that system but all line and all arrow are mark. at the beginning of each new line, there a cookies saying the name of the line and the year of exploration. That's the kind of marking that is usefull in my opinion.

If a arrow is broken, replace is for safety reason, but don't remove the information that was on.

my two cent

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Originally Posted by Attchoum

Few week ago, I went to dive/film in muchachos (video will come soon:roll:)
I don't know who explore that system but all line and all arrow are mark. at the beginning of each new line, there a cookies saying the name of the line and the year of exploration. That's the kind of marking that is usefull in my opinion.

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Etienne,

It was a group of divers with the Cambrian Foundation. I'm glad you found it helpful. We didn't think of it, we were just copying what Mike Madden and his group did in Nohoch Na Chich.

Looking forward to seeing the video.

Andy

What happens with arrows and line markers should be a matter of local ethics. Some systems require a lot of work to get permission to even dive the systems, so I only hope that those who come afterward respect the work of those that came before. If anyone has a desire to change lines or markers, I hope that they make a good faith effort to contact the person/group to find out if there is any specific reason why the markers or line in question should be changed.

I've personally used line, arrows and markers for survey and would be very pissed if they got removed before I got a chance to finish using them for why I placed them. That being said, I think there is a reasonable time limit to have a say in what happens to the line and survey stations that you place. If the original exploration team hasn't visited the cave in a certain amount of time (5-10 years) then I think that anyone willing to take it on as a project should be able to take it over.

Hopefully someone involved in the exploration/survey community in Florida can speak to the local ethics there since I'm not there very often.

As for the history of specific markers and line, if the original explorers require recognition they can do so through published articles and by placing original arrows, line and markers in the cave diving museum. Outside of needing arrows and markers for a survey, safety comes first, but for popular systems this is probably best done through some sort of organization (like the line committees I've seen in Florida) so that you don't have everybody re-doing each others work.

-Jon

Safety First. No matter who laid the line.

Thanks for sharing your opinions, in the end I think everybody agrees that safety is first and respect for the explorer's efforts is also really important, thanks Phillip I hope you enjoyed some of my lines while here!
For my Mexican friends, eheheh no doubt i can always find support among you! I didn't mean to start a fire though, I was mostly curious, I wanted to know what they think about it around the Cave World...
Regarding the right to continue an abandoned exploration of course i agree with that and i don't think you should wait 5 years, the caves are not ours so not pushing a cave that might be going for even only two years is just a pity.
The more we explore the more we increase our knowledge of these caves and everybody that loves them should agree with that. This is what we love, we have access to a secret world where we find freedom, there's enough politics in the real world why should we take it with us when we go have fun?
Jason sometimes it is not giving up, it is just knowing that it is not worth it...
Of course these are my personal opinions, good night! Mauro

Sometimes when you survey what you write on lines helps a lot.

If you want a really biased opinion, I developed line arrows solely for safety, not as personal, or "glory" markers. It is very rare that you will ever see my initials on an arrow. The only time I use one is to temporarily mark a jump, then I remove it on the way out. I tend to use cookies for that, even though they were designed by Danny Riordan :-)

I have to agree with Rob, lines, and arrows should be replaced for safety. If there is an on-going survey, then the surveyors should be consulted/advised.

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Safety First. No matter who laid the line.

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Agreed. Safety first no matter what prima donna laid that old line...

Lines degrade and become more likely to break. I remember lots of hoopla a couple of years ago and folks squalling over lines being replaced at Eagles' Nest. Some cried about the loss of history:smt102.

If the old arrows can be used, use 'em, if they can't give 'em to Cindy for the museum or chuk 'em in the garbage can along with the old line.

I agree safety first of course but all things being equal, leave the original arrows in place. I just find it more interesting to dive a cave with the original arrows still in place, I see original arrows (aside from the obvious use) as historical cave diving artifacts.

I find cave diving history fascinating and have read all books and stories on the subject, to me original line arrows are my chance to actually see for myself some of that history, so when I dive a cave with original arrows still in place it adds a touch "historic feeling" to the dive and I find that much cooler than generic line arrows.

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Originally Posted by FW

If you want a really biased opinion, I developed line arrows solely for safety, not as personal, or "glory" markers. It is very rare that you will ever see my initials on an arrow. The only time I use one is to temporarily mark a jump, then I remove it on the way out. I tend to use cookies for that, even thought they were designed by Danny Riordan :-)

I have to agree with Rob, lines, and arrows should be replaced for safety. If there is an on-going survey, then the surveyors should be consulted/advised.

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Remember the uproar that came after LR reopened and I went in about 6 months later one morning and cleaned out all the glory markers on the T's? For about a month I was worried that I would be shot by someone in NFL.....LOL ;)

Bobby

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Originally Posted by Bobby

Remember the uproar that came after LR reopened and I went in about 6 months later one morning and cleaned out all the glory markers on the T's? For about a month I was worried that I would be shot by someone in NFL.....LOL ;)

Bobby

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When I first posted, complaining about al the glory markers in JB, I said I was going in to pull them. When I got there, they were already gone. Someone beat me to it :-) There was one T that had 14 markers on it :roll:

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Originally Posted by apitkin

Etienne,

It was a group of divers with the Cambrian Foundation. I'm glad you found it helpful. We didn't think of it, we were just copying what Mike Madden and his group did in Nohoch Na Chich.

Looking forward to seeing the video.

Andy

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I love seeing info like this as well, and I think it's sad that things get yanked on the whim of a single individual.

I am all for leaving the history of the exploration in the cave as long as much as possible, and Camilo, Chan Hol and Nohoch are/were excellent examples of this.

There's something special (to me) about seeing an arrow marked "Madden 95" or "Nohoch/The Bear" with a year marking etc.

Nick

There's a lot of "glory marker" arrows in caves in Mexico. I get the "I was here" aspect and it is nice to see original explorer arrows.

But... I prefer to see an arrow being useful. Pointing to the closest exit, with the distance marked (metric, por favor).

Glory markers are NOT the same thing as original arrows and have no place in any cave, unless you explored it or had something to do with the exploration, survey or were part of that particular cave project in some way IMHO you don't have any right to leave an arrow with your name on it in any cave.

I think the thread is about original arrows, not glory markers, I do think the first is to try to find out the exploration team, if the line or marker is broken replace it! if not ask first.
in la jeringa in about a year and 1/2 since surveyed I had removed at least 15 stupid arrows and even lines.

we did find out some cool info down here thanks to original explorer arrows, in a cave with about a zillion divers a day is a different story, but find a cave in the middle of the jungle and find a line inside, after you get really pissed because someone else found it first, is cool to see who was it :)

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Originally Posted by Neptuno

after you get really pissed because someone else found it first

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:rollguy good one!!!!!!!

We were looking for caves here a while ago and found a extremely cool one in the middle of the jungle hidden under a big tree, Thomas and I were sure we were the first to dive it.
We tied off and went down and a ways in the cave there was a line! we both looked at each other in disbelief as no one on the island had even ever heard f this cave.

Further into the cave we came upon an arrow with the name Games on it with no date, after trying to find out who that was turns out it is Gabriel Games a Brazilian cave explorer who was here in the early to mid 90's, he might have been the first to dive El Dudu and make the connection to the Cueva de Lily sinkhole.

Games published an article in a Brazilian dive magazine with a map of El Dudu showing a third entrance between Cueva de Lily and the main sink (which may have collapsed as it is not accessible anymore) and on his map it shows a line called the Rob Palmer line so maybe they were here together.

Although we were a bit disappointed to not be the first it was nevertheless really cool to see the original arrow and to try and find out who the diver was and try and figure out when he dove this and what other out of the way (and this one was way out of the way) caves Games might have also discovered, now if it were just a generic arrow it would have made that whole thing way less interesting, so unless absolutely necessary leave original arrows in place!

I heard a great story this weekend. The guy I was diving with went on an expedition several hundred miles from civilization, went into a cave and found a line. He, and his whole team were disappointed. Then he remembered that he had put the line in himself a couple decades earlier :rollguy

hehe that was funny forrest...

and about phillip story, just happen that I knew the guy that put the arrow because it was my padi course director when I did my instructor in brazil which was very active cavediver at that time

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Originally Posted by Neptuno

I think the thread is about original arrows, not glory markers,

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Indeed, I have no use for Glory, "Oh look how far I got into the cave, mom" type markers.
The ones I am talking about are from the original explorers and are really awesome (for me) to see when diving in the cave.

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Originally Posted by FW

I heard a great story this weekend. The guy I was diving with went on an expedition several hundred miles from civilization, went into a cave and found a line. He, and his whole team were disappointed. Then he remembered that he had put the line in himself a couple decades earlier :rollguy

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Too funny! :rollguy

This topic has been beaten to death already but a couple of things are to be made clear:

1. What one considers safe might be deemed poor line laying by others - that is why there are line committees - as far as I know, what is happening in Mexico is unauthorized line changes and rerouting based on a single individual's opinion masqueraded as "safety comes first".

It is appalling that the agencies that licensed this individual refused to intervene and turned a blind eye on the whole situation even though their representatives had been contacted a number of times and well aware of the situation.

2. Gold line and over-sized arrows do have a place - it is not the most sensitive and decorated areas of a cave though!

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Originally Posted by NEON

This topic has been beaten to death already but a couple of things are to be made clear:

1. What one considers safe might be deemed poor line laying by others - that is why there are line committees - as far as I know, what is happening in Mexico is unauthorized line changes and rerouting based on a single individual's opinion masqueraded as "safety comes first".

It is appalling that the agencies that licensed this individual refused to intervene and turned a blind eye on the whole situation even though their representatives had been contacted a number of times and well aware of the situation.

2. Gold line and over-sized arrows do have a place - it is not the most sensitive and decorated areas of a cave though!

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You must be new...I personally went down to MX in 2005 on the behalf of the NACD to discuss 1) removal of arrows and 2) other "parties" stealing goldline that had been donated by the NACD. IMO, this whole thing is a childish school yard squabble that you guys can't solve yourself; so you go to the forums and "look" for supporting opinions. Both "parties" in this pissing contest are to blame. Just effing deal with it and stop moaning, printing t-shirts, stickers, etc year after year. Do you really know the catalyst for this crap? Do you really know who slept with whose wife and started it all? If not, just go dive!

Personally, I think all of you are out of line. The guides are pissed because they use a marker to do there guided dives (uh...learn the effing cave) when it is gone, they look like idiots to their customers (uh...learn the effing cave). This whole thing goes back to the almighty dollar. Some "parties" don't want things moved because it messes with business. Some "parties" feel that the trash left in caves (arrows riveted to lines) are stupid. DEAL WITH IT down there! Don't you guys have a whole Facebook club designed just to ***** and moan about this?

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Originally Posted by FW

I heard a great story this weekend. The guy I was diving with went on an expedition several hundred miles from civilization, went into a cave and found a line. He, and his whole team were disappointed. Then he remembered that he had put the line in himself a couple decades earlier :rollguy

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I would have loved to have seen the look on his face when that realization hit him. Getting old-er sux...I suffer from CRS on occassion myself. :-D

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Originally Posted by NEON

...It is appalling that the agencies that licensed this individual refused to intervene and turned a blind eye on the whole situation even though their representatives had been contacted a number of times and well aware of the situation...

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Just what would you have them do? He doesn't listen to them anymore.

Except for the expletives, I agree with Deepsea.

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Originally Posted by FW

Except for the expletives, I agree with Deepsea.

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I really only used one though...I am trying!

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

I really only used one though...I am trying!

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Yea one, three times :roll:

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Originally Posted by FW

Just what would you have them do? He doesn't listen to them anymore.

Except for the expletives, I agree with Deepsea.

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I like the expletives it shows Deepsea's passion. effing right

I'm still trying to figure out who owns the inside of the caves so I can know who to ask if I am allowed to make changes to the lines...

I figure someone will figure it out one day...

Until then, if I see an issue with a line in the cave that I am diving, I will fix it.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

...

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Thanks, Walter. That explains a lot.

(I've heard both sides of the story, and each side is convinced they are right...)

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Originally Posted by Tegg

if I see an issue with a line in the cave that I am diving, I will fix it.

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Dang right!

AFAIK everyone stands behind and fully supports this reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

Dang right!

AFAIK everyone stands behind and fully supports this reasoning.

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Like pulling out goldline donated by the NACD and replacing it with #18 twisted? That's some sound logic right there!

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

Like pulling out goldline donated by the NACD and replacing it with #18 twisted? That's some sound logic right there!

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Does it matter who donated it? It sounds like a dumb move no matter who donated it....We could also say that teeing all jumps is sound logic too, but I think everyone (else) got my (and Tegg's) point.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

Does it matter who donated it? It sounds like a dumb move no matter who donated it....We could also say that teeing all jumps is sound logic too, but I think everyone (else) got my (and Tegg's) point.

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You are absolutely right..I doesn't matter who donated it.

It is just annoying to see the bandwagon start up every year or so. Seems like every time someone new goes to MX and gets indoctrinated they come online with this crap. IMO, they need to 1) know what the whole story and not just what their indoctrination classes taught and 2) DEAL WITH THIS IN MEXICO and get on with it.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

You are absolutely right..I doesn't matter who donated it.

It is just annoying to see the bandwagon start up every year or so. Seems like every time someone new goes to MX and gets indoctrinated they come online with this crap. IMO, they need to 1) know what the whole story and not just what their indoctrination classes taught and 2) DEAL WITH THIS IN MEXICO and get on with it.

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Right on! The gig for WSPSSP, Madison Blue and Lafayette, which are under the auspices of the NFSA line committee is: No configuration changes without prior approval from park management via the line committee chairman. Removing a gold line and replacing it with a white line is a configuration change and is not supposed to be done. If a line is in need of repair, repair it, but make no line configuration changes. Thats pretty simple and easy to understand, I think.

As NSS-CDS safety chairman I have asked all NSS-CDS safety officers to adhere to the same general guidelines.

As far as i am concerned this is a Landowner Relations issue and also a common sense as well as a general respect issue. I realize that common sense and respect are a rare commodity these days.

Whatever they do in Mexico should be dealt with in Mexico, not here or TDS.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

Whatever they do in Mexico should be dealt with in Mexico, not here or TDS.

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A great example of the "not our effing problem" attitude...

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

DEAL WITH THIS IN MEXICO and get on with it.

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Why not even rename the forum - Exclusively North Florida Oriented Cave Diving Forum?

I guess you missed the date range..in 2005 we went down there to help solve your problems...nothing was accomplished because no one would admit any wrongdoing or cede any ground. Given that and the years or your "party's" constant childlike behavior (tshirts, stickers, etc) and you still can't solve your problem, I would have to say you want the issues.

Once again, we "up here" have tried. Please tell me what it is that you have done but go on a forum and stir the pot. Show me results not excuses.

Grow up and realize that you have to put your big-boy panties on and know that someone is not going to be there to wipe your butt every time you go to the bathroom.

How about lead by example? Since we "up here" failed, why don't you show us what can be done vs. Simply making crap residual income from tshirt sales to newbies?

Be part of the solution..not part of the problem. Grow up, face opposition and deal with it. Otherwise we will be constantly reminded that you "down there" can't take care of yourselves.

Also, the fact this is still going on effing 10 years really shows everyone "up here" just how good you guys are at solving problems. It also shows how masterfully you have been handled by Steve.

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk

Huh?

Have you seen North Florida politics? Do you WANT that in MX?

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Originally Posted by NEON

Why not even rename the forum - Exclusively North Florida Oriented Cave Diving Forum?

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He has a point.

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Originally Posted by NEON

Why not even rename the forum - Exclusively North Florida Oriented Cave Diving Forum?

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No worries, everyone can play as you can see there is not much talk about cave diving either.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

You must be new...I personally went down to MX in 2005 on the behalf of the NACD to discuss 1) removal of arrows and 2) other "parties" stealing goldline that had been donated by the NACD.......
[COLOR="rgb(0, 0, 0)"]Don't you guys have a whole Facebook club designed just to ***** and moan about this?[/COLOR]

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:rollguy right on! Almost 200 members to date! Check out my signature and Join

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

No configuration changes without prior approval from park management via the line committee chairman. Removing a gold line and replacing it with a white line is a configuration change and is not supposed to be done. If a line is in need of repair, repair it, but make no line configuration changes. Thats pretty simple and easy to understand, I think.

Whatever they do in Mexico should be dealt with in Mexico, not here or TDS.

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You don't like us..?? :smt022 ...not fair!

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

I guess you missed the date range..in 2005 we went down there to help solve your problems... ...
Also, the fact this is still going on effing 10 years really shows everyone "up here" just how good you guys are at solving problems. It also shows how masterfully you have been handled by Steve.

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It shows how much Steve cares about his role model position.
But to be honest I thought he had stopped doing this, as you call it, childish attitude. It is too much to expect from a guy who loves listening about us bitching around.

We can't put him down either, he is a good lad! He will have to stop by himself. Once we stop talking about it, it all goes quiet again. It's like an old scare, an old scab that you keep picking at!
:smt102

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

I guess you missed the date range..in 2005 we went down there to help solve your problems...nothing was accomplished because no one would admit any wrongdoing or cede any ground. Given that and the years or your "party's" constant childlike behavior (tshirts, stickers, etc) and you still can't solve your problem, I would have to say you want the issues.

Once again, we "up here" have tried. Please tell me what it is that you have done but go on a forum and stir the pot. Show me results not excuses.

Grow up and realize that you have to put your big-boy panties on and know that someone is not going to be there to wipe your butt every time you go to the bathroom.

How about lead by example? Since we "up here" failed, why don't you show us what can be done vs. Simply making crap residual income from tshirt sales to newbies?

Be part of the solution..not part of the problem. Grow up, face opposition and deal with it. Otherwise we will be constantly reminded that you "down there" can't take care of yourselves.

Also, the fact this is still going on effing 10 years really shows everyone "up here" just how good you guys are at solving problems. It also shows how masterfully you have been handled by Steve.

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk

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You must be taking me for someone else...

This is a problem that we have in mexico and if you ask me, the problem come from the fact that there is no comminucation in mexico. Yes of course we greet each other when we meet at the cenote but that's it. Everyone is doing is small stuff in is corner and then go home.

A read a statistic that about 10 000 recreationnal diver come to do cenote tour per year. Dos Ojos is probably the most popular one. I report to two differents safety officer that the bat cave line is broken at 7 differents places. 2 of those place was fix whit normal 24 line. one of the safety officer even told me that he have gold line availaible... it was 6 month ago!!!

no one is moving.

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Originally Posted by Attchoum

This is a problem that we have in mexico and if you ask me, the problem come from the fact that there is no comminucation in mexico. Yes of course we greet each other when we meet at the cenote but that's it. Everyone is doing is small stuff in is corner and then go home.

A read a statistic that about 10 000 recreationnal diver come to do cenote tour per year. Dos Ojos is probably the most popular one. I report to two differents safety officer that the bat cave line is broken at 7 differents places. 2 of those place was fix whit normal 24 line. one of the safety officer even told me that he have gold line availaible... it was 6 month ago!!!

no one is moving.

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+1 ;)

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Huh?

Have you seen North Florida politics? Do you WANT that in MX?

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Mat,

I guess you haven't been to Mexico.

Guys relax, i started the thread because i wanted to know the general opinion of people who cave dive.
Deep see, don't worry no need for help, it was a simple question, Steve Gerrard got into two places where i explored between 2009 and 2010 and changed my white arrows with his classic orange ones. I love exploring and i love to hear people telling me "pretty good line you laid there", i would like Steve to respect the efforts of an explorer as well as anybody else but he doesn't... No big deal, i crossed him twice last week and didn't bother talking to him because i have better things to do with my time than discussing with Don Quijote.
Once again exploring cave is what i do for fun, politics is awful and i refuse to take it with me into a cave, please stop writing if you don't answer the initial question, start another topic like " i don't like mexican cave divers" instead, thanks and please respect who never disrespected you, general rule for any civilized human being. Good night Mauro.

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Originally Posted by Attchoum

Take systema chan hol. first time I jumps in chan hol, every arrow was name and mark. By simply swiming on the main line, you can understand where the jump go and where loop can be close. Now if you dive in chan hol all arrow are blank...

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'Agree! Chan Hol still is cleanly laid out, but Kim did a great job on those arrows. They were fun to watch and unforgettable. I couldn't believe it a couple of years ago when they all were gone!

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Originally Posted by NEON

A great example of the "not our effing problem" attitude...

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I did not swear while addressing you & would appreciate the same consideration.

This has been treated as a cave diving problem by several people, and groups several times. When I served on the NACD Board of Directors we took time to try and help resolve this situation. We had a private meeting with some of the players. While serving as safety officer for the NSS-CDS we tried some intervention seeking a solution and had no luck.

Several of us came to the conclusion that you guys like the drama, and like it to be played out in public much more than you'd like a solution, or heaven forbid co-operation between conflicted parties. It seems you get some new cave divers down there every year or so, show them your dirty laundry & influence them to show it on here, yet again.

As was stated; "If you are not part of the soulution, you are part of the problem". Do you have constructive means that the safety chairmen, and/or Board of directors for the organizations for NSS-CDS, or the NACD can 'fix" this problem for you?

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Originally Posted by CGriffing

Mat,

I guess you haven't been to Mexico.

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Very true, I've not been to Mexico

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Very true, I've not been to Mexico

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wanna go?

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

that you guys like the drama,

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You do know that the real problem is bettewn few diver that been here for so long that they belived they own the cave (kind of)

There is a lot of new cave diver that live here permanently that don't do politic, that don't try to convince people of the only truth and that don't relly on arrow to navigate in a cave.

Just to say that you should not take everyone in mexico into the same bag.

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Originally Posted by Attchoum

Just to say that you should not take everyone in mexico into the same bag.

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You are correct & I am sorry if it seems as if I implied such.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

I did not swear while addressing you & would appreciate the same consideration.

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My apologies. I was reflecting on the general tone of the replies received.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

Several of us came to the conclusion that you guys like the drama, and like it to be played out in public much more than you'd like a solution, or heaven forbid co-operation between conflicted parties. It seems you get some new cave divers down there every year or so, show them your dirty laundry & influence them to show it on here, yet again.

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Let me make it clear - I do not live in Mexico and have no commercial interest there. Consider me a "tourist". The "lines and arrows" situation has not improved over the years and it is no wonder that people unaware of it until now would express some concern. When these people get brushed off on the forums I feel that its only just to put things into perspective (my observations are based on a number of visits over the last few years and numerous conversations with various instructors and fellow divers).

It is not about "fix"-ing this problem for me (there is no need to address me in a paternalistic manner).
It is about the licensing bodies taking a stand. Swiping it all under the rug is not a solution.

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Originally Posted by NEON

Why not even rename the forum - Exclusively North Florida Oriented Cave Diving Forum?

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I am beginning to think it already has been honestly.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

wanna go?

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Yeah

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Originally Posted by Attchoum

This is a problem that we have in mexico and if you ask me, the problem come from the fact that there is no comminucation in mexico. Yes of course we greet each other when we meet at the cenote but that's it. Everyone is doing is small stuff in is corner and then go home.

A read a statistic that about 10 000 recreationnal diver come to do cenote tour per year. Dos Ojos is probably the most popular one. I report to two differents safety officer that the bat cave line is broken at 7 differents places. 2 of those place was fix whit normal 24 line. one of the safety officer even told me that he have gold line availaible... it was 6 month ago!!!

no one is moving.

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That is unacceptable. It is almost as if some people dont really want to fix problems down there!

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Originally Posted by NEON

...It is not about "fix"-ing this problem for me (there is no need to address me in a paternalistic manner).
It is about the licensing bodies taking a stand. Swiping it all under the rug is not a solution.

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There isn't a lot "licensing bodies" can do, especially in another country. The best they can do in their own country is revoke an instructor's card. That can only be done if the instructor breaks some rule regarding training. As far as I can see, this has nothing to do with instruction.

Here is my best advice to all parties involved (or watching from afar):
There were many "line wars" in the US in the early years. Different groups had different ideas of how lines should be laid, and where permanent lines should start. You could go in a cave, and find the line starting 100 feet into the cave one day, and come back a week later and find it starting 400 feet in. That is why the DiveRite red reel holds 400' of line.

The solution was the owner(s) of the entrance. Tegg is right, it is hard to know who actually owns the cave, but access to the entrance can be controlled. The owners (Ginnie Springs, the state parks dept, etc) finally stopped the "line wars" by saying that anyone found moving a line would loose access to the property. The line committees were formed around that same time period.

Unfortunately, most of the owner here in Mexico don't give a dam. As long as someone pay them to use some part of they land that other wise will be useless, they are happy.

Most of them have no clue what going on under. the other day I was talking to one of the owner and he get really surprise when I told him that is cave is link to the one of is neighbor. I told him that is cave have something like 10 kilometer of passage and he did not believe me. How can I them explain him what's our concern about the size of the line...

Etienne,
Did you show him a map?

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Very true, I've not been to Mexico

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You're missing out on some great cave diving!

I've been to Mexico a couple of times. While there's great cave diving there, I prefer the caves in Florida. But that could just be me...and the caves I dive...

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Originally Posted by JCDdiver

You're missing out on some great cave diving!

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I'm living in the middle of great cave diving though...

Man i can't wait to go to Florida or any other cave i never visited and you definetely have to see Mexico!

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Huh?

Have you seen North Florida politics? Do you WANT that in MX?

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Just had dinner with a guild and someone who has lived in Mx for the past six years. They have politics just like North Fl from what I heard in the conversation. Nice conversations. From the small amount of cave dives I did down here ( 11 ) I saw well run line in during our dives. Now what they are doing with some of the open water cavern dives by some of the guilds would raise the hair on the back of your neck. Not that the one I talked to was doing the bad stuff. FWIW Mexico is lovely right now and has wonderful caves.

We are very lucky to have the kind of cave we have in Mexico, It's amazingly beautiful. I went to Florida once and it's nicely different, but I would not trade...

Bad cavern guide are a minority. most of them do a good job.

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Originally Posted by Mauro Bordignon

Man i can't wait to go to Florida or any other cave i never visited and you definetely have to see Mexico!

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Same here Mauro! I'm looking forward to visiting Florida caves, Abaco caves, the Lot, I heard Italian caves are not too bad either! ;)

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Originally Posted by Attchoum

We are very lucky to have the kind of cave we have in Mexico, It's amazingly beautiful. I went to Florida once and it's nicely different, but I would not trade...

Bad cavern guide are a minority. most of them do a good job.

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Agree with you Etienne, we are blessed! They are 'our' caves! And we protect them, care for them, tell them cave divers stories at night... am I going off track?? :D

Local guides are not all rubbish, that is also true! ;)

Looking forward to diving with you guys!

Italian caves are really cool, only pretty cold and deep!
About Mexico: as far as they told me, yes call me a newby, the idea of giving recreational divers a cavern tour was intended to attract them to cave diving, like a dsd padi program for caves, the idea converted fast into big business...
The good thing is that in Mexico we have the perfect conditions to do it safely, there are so many windows that it is easy to swim for 45 minutes and still be in open water in just 3 in case anything happens.
Some new cavern lines are a bit darker let's say... There's open water all the time but it is a bit too dark for the average rec diver, that's why the guides should be responsible when choosing who they are going to take in these places.
What i do not like is the common habit of swimming off the line, that's the only thing that really bothers me, much more than seeing old style guides with yoke regs and equipment as old as cave diving, i consider this Mexican folklore, it took me a bit but finally i got it... you can't change Mexico...
Mauro