Peacock,Madison,and Troy CLOSED?!!!

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Audubon of Florida News
Department of Environmental Protection Proposes to Close 53 State Parks
posted on January 27, 2011 in Florida's Special Places,Land Conservation

In what has become an annual exercise, the Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) along with other agencies, yesterday presented to the Legislature reductions they would make if ordered to reduce their budgets by 15%. In a year when the state faces a nearly $4B shortfall, this is likely to be more than just an exercise; and with the high proportion of freshman members, there is less familiarity than past years with the importance of Florida’s environmental programs.

Part of DEP’s proposal last year, which was not adopted, was to close some parks to public access to result in expense savings. This year, this proposal includes an unprecedented 53 state parks which garner the least attendance and do not have camping, despite being economic engines in some of Florida’s smallest and most rural communities.

Additionally, three parks—Egmont Key, Three Rivers and Forest Capital—are proposed to be returned to their primary owners, whether or not those owners have the capacity to manage them for conservation and public access.

Wednesday in the House Agriculture and Natural Resources Appropriations Committee, members seemed concerned but not willing to simply remove these cuts from the table. One suggested these lands should be sold to put them back on county tax rolls. Another suggested enlisting cash-strapped local governments to manage them. A third suggested closing them “except on weekends.”

The list of proposed park closures is below. Are these some of the places you would consider among Florida’s Special Places? Tell us why these sites are important to you, and share that with your legislators too. The House Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee and Senate General Government Appropriations Committee will be the first to consider which cuts they will accept.

Of course, more reductions were proposed in DEP as well as the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Committee and other important conservation programs. Be sure you are subscribed to Audubon’s Advocate e-newsletter to receive our thorough summary at the end of this and each committee week, through the State Legislative Session.

The 53 Florida State Parks
•Allen David Broussard Catfish Creek Preserve State Park, Haines City
•Atlantic Ridge Preserve State Park, Stuart
•Big Shoals State Park, White Springs
•Bulow Plantation Ruins Historic State Park, Flagler Beach
•Camp Helen State Park, Panama City Beach
•Cedar Key State Museum State Park, Cedar Key
•Colt Creek State Park, Lakeland
•Constitution Convention Museum State Park, Port St. Joe
•Crystal River Archaeological State Park, Crystal River
•Dade Battlefield Historic State Park, Bushnell
•Dagny Johsnon Key Largo Hammock Botanical State Park, Key Largo
•Deer Lake State Park, Santa Rosa Beach
•Devil’s Millhopper Geological State Park, Gainesville
•Don Pedro Island State Park, Boca Granda
•Dudley Farm Historic State Park, Newberry
•Dunn’s Creek State Park, Pomona
•Estero Bay Preserve State Park, Estero
•Fort Cooper State Park, Inverness
•Fort George Island Cultural State Park, Jacksonville
•Fort Mose Historic State Park, St. Augustine
•John Gorrie Museum State Park, Apalachicola
•Judah P. Benjamin Confederate Memorial at Gamble Plantation Historic State Park, Ellenton
•Lake Jackson Mounds Archaeological State Park, Tallahassee
•Lake June-in-Winter Scrub State Park, Sebring
•Lake Talquin State Park, Tallahassee
•Letchworth-Love Mounds Archaeological State Park, Tallahassee
•Lignumvitae Key Botanical State Park, Islamorada
•Madison Blue Spring State Park, Lee
•Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings Historic State Park, Cross Creek
•Natural Bridge Battlefield Historic State Park, Woodville
•Olustee Battlefield Historic State Park, Olustee
•Orman House Historic State Park, Apalachicola
•Paynes Creek Historic State Park, Bowling Green
•Peacock Springs State Park, Luraville
•Perdido Key State Park, Pensacola
•Ponce de Leon Springs State Park, Ponce de Leon
•Pumpkin Hill Creek Preserve State Park, Jacksonville
•Rock Springs Run State Reserve, Sorrento
•San Felasco Hammock Preserve State Park, Alachua
•San Marcos de Apalache Historic State Park, St. Marks
•Savannas Preserve State Park, Jensen Beach
•St. Lucie Inlet Preserve State Park, Stuart
•St. Sebastian River Preserve State Park, Fellsmere
•Suwannee River Wilderness Trail/Nature and Heritage Tourism Center, White Springs
•Terra Ceia Preserve State Park, Palmetto
•The Barnacle Historic State Park, Coconut Grove
•Troy Spring State Park, Branford
•Wacasassa Bay Preserve State Park, Cedar Key
•Washington Oaks Gardens State Park, Palm Coast
•Werner-Boyce Salt Springs State Park, Port Richey
•Windley Key Fossil Reef Geological State Park, Islamorada
•Ybor City Museum State Park, Tampa
•Yellow River Marsh Preserve State Park, Holt

And this just after they refused to keep charging us a rate we were perfectly happy paying, of $15 per diver per day. Is it any surprise? Should they perhaps hire a businessman to run things? There is no excuse for closing parks, just run them right!

We need the numbers on how much the cave diving community contributes to the economy of these areas and start getting that information to the Legislature. There are also a few businesses that would take quite a hit:
Cave Excursions
Any hotels and restaurants in:
Mayo
Branford
Lee
Madison
etc

Also would overall dive tourism fall off if divers were limited to a few locations?

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Originally Posted by scottj

We need the numbers on how much the cave diving community contributes to the economy of these areas and start getting that information to the Legislature. There are also a few businesses that would take quite a hit:
Cave Excursions
Any hotels and restaurants in:
Mayo
Branford
Lee
Madison
etc

Also would overall dive tourism fall off if divers were limited to a few locations?

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Absolutely!!! Need a real squeeky wheel.

I have written an email to the legislature letting them know my thoughts on this. Basically, the state has failed to manage costs and revenues. Allowing them to rely on park closing to meet a budget will not teach them proper fund management, and will fail to meet the basic mission of the state park system which is to share the parks, not close them down.

On the other hand, perhaps this is a good chance for the NACD to buy some caves?

additional article

park closings

If there is anything we can do to be the squeaky wheel just let us know. I will make calls and send letters and emails. Whatever we have to do to keep them open.

Is this something the Spring Aliance or NACD or NSS/CDS can get involved with to lobby against. I have no problems donating to the cause as well.

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Originally Posted by K Mejean

If there is anything we can do to be the squeaky wheel just let us know. I will make calls and send letters and emails. Whatever we have to do to keep them open.

Is this something the Spring Aliance or NACD or NSS/CDS can get involved with to lobby against. I have no problems donating to the cause as well.

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I will be making phone calls in the morning to get a better picture. The NFSA is resolved to address this.

How did Lafayette Blue manage to stay of that list?

They have camping.

Keep us posted on what we can do Kelly. I am willing to write, email, call and donate.

Time for action Brothers and Sisters

I know we have a lot of volunteers working hard on keeping places open (and I REALLY appreciate it all). I'm strapped for time, but can send off form letters and donate cash. Would it be worthwhile for the cave diving community to have someone dedicated to lobbying for them -- like a real job? I'd pony up some cash if it were someone's job to be out in front of these law makers everyday. If we had individuals, clubs (NSS-CDS, NACD, etc), and local businesses chip in I would guess we could pay someone a decent salary.

Cheers,
Jeff

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Originally Posted by icestac

I know we have a lot of volunteers working hard on keeping places open (and I REALLY appreciate it all). I'm strapped for time, but can send off form letters and donate cash. Would it be worthwhile for the cave diving community to have someone dedicated to lobbying for them -- like a real job? I'd pony up some cash if it were someone's job to be out in front of these law makers everyday. If we had individuals, clubs (NSS-CDS, NACD, etc), and local businesses chip in I would guess we could pay someone a decent salary.

Cheers,
Jeff

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Will be interesting to see if the NACD or CDS step up or if this will be a "grass root" effort.
N Fl Springs Alliance is a good option and may be real helpful especially if they can get some $ support.

Any requests?

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

They have camping.

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So does Three Rivers State Park and that park gets a lot of activity, but it's also on the list.

I'm will also be making phone calls and sending out e-mails. Hopefully, this will just die out like it has in previous years.

Let me know what is needed, time, money, calls, emails, letters.....whatever. A well developed plan is almost a must, it should involve ALL the cave diving agencies, NACD, NFSA, NSS/CDS & even the training agencies who certify cave divers.... ALL OF THEM.

A well organized movement from all the above agencies and individuals can make an impact.

Med that is an excellent idea. Let me know what I can do.

Ironically the NFSA is having a rountine meeting this Saturday 3pm at Troy,and often we have a park manager present. The park managers aren't to blame,they have helped us a lot and dimayed at what is happening. This will be an item of discussion for us,and hopefully some ideas on what we can do will be shared. We hope you can attend,whether a member or not,because closure of any of these parks will hurt us as recreational divers.

Direct lobbying of State officials is a great idea- but it's going to take an organized approach- there is definitely an art to it.

For those who are interested- you can make an appointment and speak directly with your State Legislators- but be prepared to talk dollars and to be concise.

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

And this just after they refused to keep charging us a rate we were perfectly happy paying, of $15 per diver per day. Is it any surprise? Should they perhaps hire a businessman to run things? There is no excuse for closing parks, just run them right!

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You have to be joking. There was pages of pure bile puked all over the place about the diving fee. That is why they gave up on it. It had nothing to do with anything except a bunch of disgruntled people complaining.

If all of you are willing to pay the fee, then the time to offer it up is now!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harmstrong

Direct lobbying of State officials is a great idea- but it's going to take an organized approach- there is definitely an art to it.

For those who are interested- you can make an appointment and speak directly with your State Legislators- but be prepared to talk dollars and to be concise.

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Absolutely Heather and good point.

Also,for people who don't live in Florida,you can play a huge role too. In a state that derives a lot of money from tourism,they can stand to lose a lot by you not coming to visit,and this hurts a lot.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

You have to be joking. There was pages of pure bile puked all over the place about the diving fee. That is why they gave up on it. It had nothing to do with anything except a bunch of disgruntled people complaining.

If all of you are willing to pay the fee, then the time to offer it up is now!

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well they certainly have us all by the balls now.
I'm willing to pay it.

Okay...I have gotten some information back. This list is what could possibly happen,but not a done deal. If the legislature pulls the $$$,then these parks will be targeted. YES,there is something we can do to keep these parks off the radar screen. I will have a clearer picture after the NFSA meeting Saturday because we will have some more information,and people in attendence that can answer questions. Your support is appreciated,and look at www.northfloridaspringsalliance.org

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

well they certainly have us all by the balls now.
I'm willing to pay it.

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They don't have you by anything. They can just close the parks.

What the hell do you guys think was happening? The state has been living off federal stimulus money for two budget years. The same money that everyone has pissed and moaned about ad nausium. Now, the stimulus funding is gone, what do you think is happening?

And this is just a part of the hatchet job that is going on in the state budget. Sit back and watch, you are going to have cabinet level departments dismantled, hundreds of jobs go away, University and school funding cut, employee pensions cut, Medicare cut, prison budgets cut, law enforcement cuts... basically, all of it. It would shock me greatly if they give money to parks and then take it from law enforcement or medicare.

Someone needs to co-ordinate a rational, well reasoned response that the entire cave diving community can support. Good luck.

If they allowed solo diving and stayed open later than 4:30 I would visit them more.

How does Branford and Mayo feel about this?

Do they even know what's proposed? Shouldn't we be helping them?
We just loose our recreation at these sites. They loose $, jobs and visitors.

Why wouldn't the state turn over management to them?

I am willing to send letters in support. Please post address to mail them to.

Jim

One problem with these sites is that we just put our annual passes in the window and there’s no way to gauge how many pass holders have visited the park.

I think that everyone (annual pass holders) should be required to fill out the paper slip at the Iron Ranger. When I enter parks that have a Ranger at the gate they charge me a $0 entry fee and I get a receipt.

I believe that is why PSP, Madison & Troy are on this list, they don’t have an accurate record of how many people are visiting these sites.

The North Florida Springs Alliance(NFSA)is the citizen's support organization that partners with the state to support operations at Troy, Peacock and Madison Blue state parks. Many of you may recall that the NFSA just completed the interpretive trail at Peacock.

This Saturday the manager of Troy, Peacock and Madison Blue state parks will be attending our BoD meeting at Troy Springs at 3 PM. He will be in a position to answer questions about these proposed closures and will also be able to discuss with us how to effectively lobby for getting these 3 parks off of the list. Members and non members are encouraged to attend.

The NFSA has about 150 active members. There is strength in numbers and the more members we have the more lobbying influence we may have upon the decision makers in this park closure process. I'd like to encourage you to join if you have not already done so. Click on the link above and join using your PayPal account as shown on the webpage.

If we have specific actions to take such as letter writing, and e-mail campaign or whatever we can do to help influence this decision making process you can be confident that the BoD of the NFSA will actively pursue taking these steps and will make sure our membership is heard on this issue.



Jim Wyatt
Treasurer, NFSA

I thought that Troy, PSP, LB & MB had a small cache of rangers that went from park to park.
So if they close 3 of the 4 parks are they not going to still have the same cost of operation?
We should also look at how many pass holders that will no longer purchase an annual pass once these parks are closed.
I for one will no longer need my annual pass, how about you?

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

Why wouldn't the state turn over management to them?

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Richard, go and look how well that has worked at Falmouth before you wish for anything. The county made it simple, no diving allowed without a permit.

And, I have not seen anyone working to get Falmouth open.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

They don't have you by anything. They can just close the parks.

What the hell do you guys think was happening? The state has been living off federal stimulus money for two budget years. The same money that everyone has pissed and moaned about ad nausium. Now, the stimulus funding is gone, what do you think is happening?

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Absolutely. 46 states nation wide are facing significant budget cuts, and Florida's 4 billion deficit is far better than many other states from both per capita and total dollars perspectives.

Stimulus funding never stimulated anything - because most states used it to supplant state appropriated funding and in doing so abosrbed much of the impact the poor economy had on their tax revenues. In the long view, that was a really bad idea as it did nothing over the last two years to turn the economy around. (But to be fair when we continue to poor two billion plus dollars per week that we don;t really have into the sandbox, I'm not sure creating more jobs etc, would have made any difference.) As it is, stimulus funding delayed the hit on state services by two years, but states are going to feel it full force over the next fiscal year.

I am pretty non partisan as working in Washington has demonstrated to me that Democrat or Republican, it's more about following party dogma and supporting various special interest groups that get politicians elected than it is making wise decisions in the interest of the country or living up to a promise of government for the people by the people.

At the heart of the issue is the very naive and very entitled attitude among most of the public that we can hold the line on taxes or even cut taxes and still demand to maintain the same previous level of services. That is simply not the case, and while we all conmplain about how badly politicans run the country, we keep electing them, we keep tolerating a system that leaves politicians tootally beholden to special interest groups and bug business interests, and we keep insisting on high levels of service but refuse to pay more in taxes. The fact is when you consider medicaid/medicare, social security, interest on the federal debt and our expenditures for the war on terror, we could eliminate all the discretionary spending (i.e. everything else) in the budget, not just freeze it, and we still could not balance the federal budget. So even at best, we are going to have endure tax increases or significant decreases in services to stop the current budgetary slide.

OFG, I am probably the only person I know who consistently leaves bruises on Lincoln's head, and I didn't complain about the $15/day fee, and told the person who called from the DEP to keep it in place and we'd be happy. Perhaps there are other tightwads who felt that paying $15 to dive or $60 for an annual pass was too much, but I thought the general concensus was, we were ok with it.

We need to get rid of these politicians and put businessmen into power. You can't run a business this poorly and survive, it shouldn't be legal to run a state like this, either.

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

How does Branford and Mayo feel about this?

Why wouldn't the state turn over management to them?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Richard, go and look how well that has worked at Falmouth before you wish for anything. The county made it simple, no diving allowed without a permit.

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Could we get them turned over (or purchased for a favorable price) to one of the organizations (NSS-CDS, NACD, or NFSA)?

Cheers,
Jeff

I suspect the budget folks are not going to be real concenred about joe public not getting to visit their favorite park when the perception will be that they can just go to another one with no major inconvenience. And the underlying idea may well be that if they don't got to park A, they'll still go to Park B, so the state will save money and not loise any significant revenue.

Obviously, as cave divers we see it differently and the key here will be to make that viewpoint known and understood to the legislature.

Personally, Marci and I travel to N FL 4 times per year, staying about a week each time and if when you add it all up we spend between $1500 to $2000 per trip with at least 90% of that money being spent in Florida. ($7200 per year in money earned somewhere else pumped directly into the Florida economy where it turns over 5 to 7 times in taxable sales, representing at least $35,000 in taxable dollars before it's all said and done.

If FL closes Peacock and Madison, it would change where we dive and it will also temp us to spend at least one of our annual trips in MX, eliminating not only one FL trip but also a second in order to pay for the higher travel costs to MX. That's potentially a $17,000 loss in taxable revenue to FL just from effects of the money spent by the two of us. Scale that up over the segment of the non local zip code cave diving community that has similar spending patterns and that adds up to a significant impact on the affected N FL counties and the businesses in them as well as to the state of FL as a whole.

You balance a budget not only by cutting services but also by preserving or increasing revenue. From that perspective no one in the legislature is going to appeal to pity, sentiment, or a love of cave diving (and if they did, they'd deserve to be licked out of office under any management model) but they should and will respond to a solid financial argument showing that the "savings" in closing parks that support /allow access to cave diving will have a greater impact on revenue and result in a net loss to the state at a time when it cannot afford to lose revenue.

JahJah:
>We need to get rid of these politicians and put businessmen into power. You can't run a business this poorly and
>survive, it shouldn't be legal to run a state like this, either.

I share your sentiment, but business managers don't have to be elected and re-elected by their employees. It's a very different dynamic.


DA:
>So even at best, we are going to have endure tax increases or significant decreases
>in services to stop the current budgetary slide.

I'm not sure that'll do it. Since back in the '40s, the revenue collected by the Gov't has run close to 18% of Gross Domestic Product, occasionally moving a percentage point or two up or down, even as tax rates varied over a wide range. (See http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=205 ) Raising taxes significantly may drive down GDP, driving down the dollars collected. If we need more Gov't revenue (and we do), we should be emphasizing ways to increase the GDP.

Didn't we go a similar thing with the State Parks back when Chiles was governor of FL? I seem to recall a similar letter-writing campaign back then.

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

We need to get rid of these politicians and put businessmen into power. You can't run a business this poorly and survive, it shouldn't be legal to run a state like this, either.

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That idea sounds great, but historically it has not worked well. Consider the recent housing and banking disasters. Both resulted due to government creating a regulatory environment made to order for business interests to make money. In those cases it was intended to allow business interests to make derivative income off money rather than actually producing or adding value to something tangible. That kind of "business" oriented thinking is what has gotten us into our current hole. (I'd get into why business and making money drives the wars in Iraq and Afganistan, but that's too painful for many of the people involved.)

I agree government needs to be run on sound financial mangment principles, but turning government totally over to business people (people who are biased toward and loive for making a profit that is laways by definition going to be at the expense of someone else) is just not the answer. Instead we need politicians and bureacrats who actually understand and believe in sound fiscal management.

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

We need to get rid of these politicians and put businessmen into power. You can't run a business this poorly and survive, it shouldn't be legal to run a state like this, either.

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Sure, that way Peacock, Madison, Troy, and any county or water mgmt owned property can become another Ginnie. For those who cannot afford the high, profit-motivated entrance fee, too bad. Go enjoy nature somewhere else.

Since Florida citizens just elected (and have been electing for 20 plus years), a pro-business legislature and executive this is what happens. Write your state legislator and senator today. Tell him how you feel. Chances are (s)he agrees with you, BUT (s)he can not continue to promise lower taxes and keep the same level of service. Something has to give and normally that means the natural environment.

Find out who your rep is here.:
http://www.flsenate.gov/Legislators/...TOKEN=74749329

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

We need to get rid of these politicians and put businessmen into power. You can't run a business this poorly and survive, it shouldn't be legal to run a state like this, either.

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Think about this. Businessmen ran Enron. Businessmen ran Worldcom. Bernie Madoff was a businessman. So are the guys that ran GM, Chrysler, Fannie Mae, Leyman Brothers, AIG insurance.

It doesn't matter who or what we elect. If the people elected do not have any personal integrity, then it is of no matter.

ps - Florida just elected a businessman as Governor who was CEO of a company that was involved in the biggest Medicare fraud in the state's history, but don't worry, he didn't know.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

It doesn't matter who or what we elect. If the people elected do not have any personal integrity, then it is of no matter.

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Your second sentence is why the first one is absolutely wrong. Who we elect has everything to do with how well government works.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

You have to be joking. There was pages of pure bile puked all over the place about the diving fee. That is why they gave up on it. It had nothing to do with anything except a bunch of disgruntled people complaining.

If all of you are willing to pay the fee, then the time to offer it up is now!

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The problem with the fee change last summer was that many of us had just purchased annual passes under the old rules that the annual pass covered entry for diving. Then the state changed the rules without grandfathering in current pass holders. I would gladly pay an increased fee for diving. But I wouldn't also purchase an annual because I don't visit the parks for any other reason.


I think the issue here with many of these parks on the list is that they are frequented by annual pass holders more than daily purchasers. What the state needs to do is find out how much revenue they would lose in annual pass sales by closing these parks. They might be surprised.

Also, don't forget, this isn't the first time the state has proposed mass state park closures. This is an issue that comes up every year or so. When/if we can save Peacock, Madison, and Troy, we then need to focus on showing the state how much we use those parks throughout the year so they do not get placed on this list next time. This is an ongoing issue that needs to be continually addressed, not just an issue we become outraged at once a year.

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Originally Posted by billyf

One problem with these sites is that we just put our annual passes in the window and there’s no way to gauge how many pass holders have visited the park.

I think that everyone (annual pass holders) should be required to fill out the paper slip at the Iron Ranger. When I enter parks that have a Ranger at the gate they charge me a $0 entry fee and I get a receipt.

I believe that is why PSP, Madison & Troy are on this list, they don’t have an accurate record of how many people are visiting these sites.

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I think Billy has something here. It is the apparent low attendance that may be the reason for these sites being considered for closure.

Well, guess i'll hold off on a renewal until this gets resolved. My annual pass is due next month. I'm not goin to pay $125ish for a family pass if the two sites I do every single weekend are closed.

Let's face it, for us locals if the cost of the annual pass were doubled, would you still buy it to cave dive? Yup, me too.

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Originally Posted by FW

I think Billy has something here. It is the apparent low attendance that may be the reason for these sites being considered for closure.

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What if we take it upon ourselves over the next few weeks/months to just drop a slip into the iron ranger with our name, date of attendance and annual pass info, so they can start to track it.

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Originally Posted by FW

I think Billy has something here. It is the apparent low attendance that may be the reason for these sites being considered for closure.

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Could we setup a poll to keep count here and gather some data?

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

What if we take it upon ourselves over the next few weeks/months to just drop a slip into the iron ranger with our name, date of attendance and annual pass info, so they can start to track it.

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Someone would need to get the ranger's cooperation, or the slips would just get trashed.

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Originally Posted by icestac

Could we setup a poll to keep count here and gather some data?

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I think Peter's idea would mean more to the State.

I'll be at Madison and Peacock sunday. I can gingerly and diplomatically ask, if you want me to. Let me know. I'm sure the rangers are interested in things staying the way they are.

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Originally Posted by Superlyte27

I'll be at Madison and Peacock sunday. I can gingerly and diplomatically ask, if you want me to. Let me know. I'm sure the rangers are interested in things staying the way they are.

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Talk to the NFSA people too. Kelly, Jim, and Shirley.

I figured Kelly and Jim would chime in here. I won't do anything until You/Them say so, and admittedly, there are probably better known people who can communicate it.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

You have to be joking. There was pages of pure bile puked all over the place about the diving fee. That is why they gave up on it. It had nothing to do with anything except a bunch of disgruntled people complaining.

If all of you are willing to pay the fee, then the time to offer it up is now!

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John, the people were upset because the annual pass they had paid for was not being honored for the activity in which they intended to use it at the time of purchase. I paid for an annual pass primarily to dive, so if that privilege becomes revoked, I'm going to be pissed.

That being said, I'd gladly pay extra $$$ for a diving pass, even though I don't dive state parks all that often.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

John, the people were upset because the annual pass they had paid for was not being honored for the activity in which they intended to use it at the time of purchase. I paid for an annual pass primarily to dive, so if that privilege becomes revoked, I'm going to be pissed.

That being said, I'd gladly pay extra $$$ for a diving pass, even though I don't dive state parks all that often.

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Perhaps, but the state offered to refund the cost of the annual pass to anyone that asked.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...warranted+cost

See post 18 and read the letter from Brian Fugate.

Half-Fast- I agree, very different dynamic in some ways. However, CEO's do generally answer to a board of directors and if public, their shareholders. In that sense, they are not elected every day by a vote, but by lack of one, voting them out. In reality, it's very complicated, and I agree the analogy was not perfect, but the idea behind it was the need to have sound financial principles in place. Your point on raising tax revenue is spot on, and is shown beautifully by a Laffer Curve. It's such a simple concept, that I guess it makes sense almost no politicians understand it. The state needs to focus on raising GDP, not increasing percentage of taxes, I think you are spot on there.

DA- thank you for not writing a lecture. I think if you look at the spirit of my point, and focus more on the 2nd sentence than a literal translation of the first, you'll find you don't push any idea significantly different from mine. The recent financial disasters were actually the result of unsound financial practices. Yes, they were perpetrated by businessmen, so if you take my suggestion to put businesspeople in power literally, instead of focus on the idea of putting people who have a sound understanding of business and financial principles in power, then your arguments become moot. I don't want corrupt businessmen in power any more than I want corrupt politicians, and I'm sure you were aware of that when you posted. ;)

SDHussey- Let me play devil's advocate for a second here. I was recently at a local gun range that is run by the government. They charge X per day to use the range. I waited over an hour in the waiting room, as the range was full. They were understaffed. I finally gave up and went to another range nearby that charges 1.5X per HOUR per PERSON. At the second range I had no waiting time to get in a lane. The range was indoors and air conditioned, not outdoors, so no bugs. They had runners in the top of the ceiling so no cold range time wasted. In other words, there is a concept called Supply and Demand that suggests the higher the price is, the less people will consume a unit of that good: Peacock is cheaper than Ginnie so more people go to Peacock. The other side of this suggests that the lower the price, the less sellers will offer for consumption a unit of that good. Peacock is cheaper so they are willing to close it and lose that revenue. Ginnie is more expensive, and we never get threatened with budget-related closures, do we? Another related aspect is overall destruction of the aquifer. A higher price would lead to less cave diving, which would lead to less damage to the caves ;)

Could it be that $5/car is too little to charge? They obviously feel so. If they ran the park like a businessman, they would find the optimal price to charge to ensure steady demand while meeting costs to atleast break even.

The one difference between the literal and eh...spirital...translation of my idea is the difference between profit and break even. I want people with an understanding of business concepts to run the state, so that they BREAK EVEN. The government should not make a profit. If you literally took businesspeople in to run the state, they would try to make a profit. So, I don't literally want business people running the state, merely people who understand how to not lose money. (and granted, not evey person with business understandings will always break even, there might be years they lose a little, that's to be expected, but should not lead to closures)

Additionally, the entrance fee to Ginnie isn't half bad compared to the fee required to go on boat dives or the such. It's very high compared to state park entry fees, but when you look at places that have to make a profit to survive, Ginnie is the same or lower usually. ;)

OFG- You can always find anecdotal evidence to support ideas. Would you like me to produce a list of all the businessmen who made a profit fairly while providing the world with a useful service? I don't really want to get into a stupid argument over that. Yes, there are lots of selfish business men, and lots of failed businessmen. However, there are lots of selfless businessmen, and lots of successful businessmen. All of that is beside the point, as once again someone took me literally instead of understanding that I merely meant people with an understanding of business principles.

I agree that it is important to elect people with integrity. This governor could preside over both the biggest medicare fraud and the biggest park travesty, I just hope he does better than that.

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

You can always find anecdotal evidence to support ideas.

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Let me play devil's advocate for a second here. I was recently at a local gun range that is run by the government ...

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

A higher price would lead to less cave diving, which would lead to less damage to the caves.

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Fortunately, your instructor did not feel the same elitist way. Or the manufacturers and retailers who provided the goods & services that you required to become a cave diver. But you probably knew this already because of your pedagologically understanding of

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

a concept called Supply and Demand that suggests

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Perhaps, but the state offered to refund the cost of the annual pass to anyone that asked.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...warranted+cost

See post 18 and read the letter from Brian Fugate.

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And then within a couple of days, they changed the rules again and actually lowered the cost of daily diving.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Peacock is cheaper than Ginnie so more people go to Peacock. The other side of this suggests that the lower the price, the less sellers will offer for consumption a unit of that good. Peacock is cheaper so they are willing to close it and lose that revenue. Ginnie is more expensive, and we never get threatened with budget-related closures, do we? Another related aspect is overall destruction of the aquifer. A higher price would lead to less cave diving, which would lead to less damage to the caves ;)

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Years of program direction and program evaluation experience, including the fiscal aspects of both discretionary and formula grant programs has shown me one thing over and over - the law of unintended consequences.

I have found that it often results from an over application of theory, unbalanced by real world experience. It all sounds good, but the devil is usually in the details you don't know, and lacking adequate experience, you often don't even know that you don't know those details.

In that regard I am always very cautious about throwing around assumptions. For example assuming that increasing the price of a day of cave diving will reduce the number of cave divers and therefore reduce the damage to caves is potentially flawed. If certification costs are within a few percent of being the same (which would be the case with higher daily dive/park fees), the the number of cave divers who become certified will not be significantly reduced. However, when you increase the daily park fee (or require dievers to pay $22-30 at a commercial operation like Ginnie), you potentially add a significant cost to the cost of diving on a particular day. That could result in a significant number of divers diving less often, with a decreased ability to improve and maintain their skill levels, increasing the damage to caves.

Similarly, if you close or increase the cost of diving at popular touristy caves with the infrastructure to support large numbers of divers, you create a significant probability that those divers will just dive elsewhere, creating more diving pressure and more damage to other caves in the area, and quite possibily creating more erosion, litter and other side effects from the surface related activities surrounding diving. So in effect you are again increasing damage by both spreading it around and by increasing diver pressure in areas where the roads, parking, facilities, etc, cannot support it. What is even worse, those are all factors that could result in more private sector and public sector cave access issues, tightening the downward spiral of more pressure on fewer caves leading to more damage, leading to more closures, etc.

All of the above are potential unintended consequences of something that sounds good on the surface. In my oinion, and in my experience, program and business plans both run off the road, often with the best of intent, because the plan targets a specific desired outcome but fails to take into account, or even consider all the potential unintended consequences that will accompany that outcome. What is important is the ability and the willingness to look at the larger picture from a more systemic viewpoint, and unfortunately that trait is often lacking in both politicians and business people.

Gentlemen and ladies, I love the idea of fighting this proposed closing of State Parks containing dive able caves. There are lots of ideas and talk about throwing money at the problem via increased fees, etc. I suggest we find out what the NFSA found out at their Saturday meeting with Park Management before doing a knee jerk reaction and plan a coordinated effective response.
You do know that the State Parks are owned and paid for by the citizens of Florida don't you? Since you already paid for the Parks with your tax dollars you do have an expectation, nay a right to question government policy on this issue. Who made the improvements at the parks in question? Cave divers and cave diver organizations. Who opened roads to the springs when hurricanes littered them with down trees? Cave divers. Who got the road opened to Peacock as the State dragged its feet fixing the road in 2008, Cave Excursions (a diving company) and others. As such, cave divers should not have to pay more for the use of the Parks then any other persons be they hikers, picnickers, horse riders, swimmers, tubers, etc. we citizens already paid. The reason last years fee hike for divers was reversed was because we are not a special class of Park users, we are just Park users who happen to enjoy the sport of cave diving. All of you have time, and money invested in your training, and equipment. Can you use this training and equipment at a non-cave diving park?
Have you ever met a foreign diver at one of these Springs. Think of the cost involved in making a trip from another country to take training, equipment rentals, housing, food, and other service that is spent by these visitors in the State of Florida. The Springs in question are destinations! The loss of visitors and money to these low attended Parks and region will impact the whole of Florida. Movies are made, video shot, magazine articles written, book published about Florida’s cave country. This area is known world wide in diving circles. Tourism is a keystone of Florida’s economy, close the Parks and it’s gone.
Finally, we are in tough economic times, and budget cuts will be necessary. There probably are too many State Parks! Most of them offer the same activities: hiking, canoeing, camping, fishing, beaches, etc. But there are only handfuls that offer scuba diving and cave diving. A reasonable person can not say that if a cave diving Park is closed a cave diver can just use another State Park. But that argument can be said of most other Park activities. Picnickers have local, county, regional, and State Parks to picnic in. Canoeing can be done on many of the States lakes, rivers, and oceans, as can most other sports and recreational activies. Its cave diving that can be done only in these few State Parks. As such, we need to endorse closing of many of the Parks on the list that don’t impact cave divers and loudly complain about the three Parks threatened; Wes Skiles Peacock Springs, Madison Blue, and Troy Springs.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Think about this. Businessmen ran Enron. Businessmen ran Worldcom. Bernie Madoff was a businessman. So are the guys that ran GM, Chrysler, Fannie Mae, Leyman Brothers, AIG insurance.

It doesn't matter who or what we elect. If the people elected do not have any personal integrity, then it is of no matter.

ps - Florida just elected a businessman as Governor who was CEO of a company that was involved in the biggest Medicare fraud in the state's history, but don't worry, he didn't know.

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To be fair, the government runs Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, HHS, Dept of Ed, etc etc. Fannie Mae was also propped up by insane government guarantees. They go through more "losses" with our money EACH year than all of the above, total.

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Could it be that $5/car is too little to charge? They obviously feel so. If they ran the park like a businessman, they would find the optimal price to charge to ensure steady demand while meeting costs to atleast break even.

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I agree. Parks aren't police or fire departments. They aren't necessary state services. Why does everyone in the state have to support park use by a much smaller subset of people in the state ? Fees should be whatever they need to be to cover the cost of maintaining the particular park. It's time for the government at every level to stop expanding, and start shrinking. This is just a small part of that.

Just joined family NFSA, will push others here in SE FL to join.
John

Everybody

Thanks for your support. Your voices have been heard,and we are here to respond to this issue.

We convened on Saturday and this was an opportunity to educate ourselves. The State of Florida has a several billion dollar short fall,and each agency has been required to perform an exercise for a 15% reduction in their budget. This same thing was done last year,with the same parks targeted,but nothing happened. This year is different in that even though the same budget cutting exercise was completed,there is a new administration that has the intent to address the fiscal crisis in Florida. So the alarm is ringing,is this a fire drill or the real thing? Nobody really knows,but it is prudent to assume the worst,and have a concerted effort to to make our preferences known.

The NFSA is dedicated 100% to addressing this issue and informing you of what is going on. We feel correspondence directed to certain levels of government will have the best effect from the cave diving community. In the days to come we will provide you with addresses,and some bullet points relevent to these parks,but right now we are awaiting some public information on park statisitics,so we ask you put your printers on a temporary stand by.

The NFSA will also educate the noncave diving community that would have a significant economic impact with these park closures aka "ripple effect",and solicit their support.

As stated earlier we thank you for your support,and the new members,because the larger our membership base, the bigger our voice is.

Sincerely
Kelly Jessop
President NFSA

When jeb bush was elected Govenor of Florida, and funded the most costly campaign in history by trading tax cuts for campaign contributions, I predicted that He would bankrupt our state and then use the budget crises as an excuse to close state lands. The next step is to sell the property to developers who probably contributed handsomely to the cause. This state and this country were doing fine until the perfect storm of bush, bush, and murdoch! If you want to blame somebody, blame the voters who put these guys in office!
And Like John Said. You aint seen nothin yet!:smt013

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

OFG, I am probably the only person I know who consistently leaves bruises on Lincoln's head, and I didn't complain about the $15/day fee, and told the person who called from the DEP to keep it in place and we'd be happy. Perhaps there are other tightwads who felt that paying $15 to dive or $60 for an annual pass was too much, but I thought the general concensus was, we were ok with it.

We need to get rid of these politicians and put businessmen into power. You can't run a business this poorly and survive, it shouldn't be legal to run a state like this, either.

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If You voted for rick scott, you have no right to lecture anyone about running a business! And once again, our problems started when we started falling for the old run the state like a business crap! Do the math!

No argument is complete without, "It's Bush's fault." :roll:

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

No argument is complete without, "It's Bush's fault." :roll:

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Well, to be honest, my first marriage was Busch's fault.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Well, to be honest, my first marriage was Busch's fault.

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You definitely need to drink a better quality beer.

I believe I was clear about who I blame!

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

You definitely need to drink a better quality beer.

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He would only have ended up with a better quality ex-wife.

I was going to go find NFSA's webpage and join, but I got confused...

• National Fire Sprinkler Association
• National Field Selling Association
• National Fastpitch Softball Association
• National Flying Squirrel Association
• National Film and Sound Archive
• National Finance Students Association
• Nazarene Fellowship of Single Adults
• National Federation of Sea Anglers
• National Fraud Strategic Authority
• National Student Federation of America
• National Forensic Sciences Agency
• National Farm Security Act
• Norwegian Food Safety Authority
• National Filter Service Association
• National Forest Ski Area
• Nightingale Fisher Support Association

I think there was a meeting of the Bush family who got together and intentionally started all these sites so that we couldnt save the parks and they could be sold to Bush cronies. Or maybe it was Michele Obama and her extravagant staff that wanted them closed because "cave diving isnt good for you" and they know best. Maybe it was Buggs Bunny, because we were intruding on his underground Bunny Resort.

Seriously, I am hoping we can keep the conservative/liberal bashing out of this arguement and come together for a focused effort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skorpiov

I was going to go find NFSA's webpage and join, but I got confused...

• National Fire Sprinkler Association
• National Field Selling Association
• National Fastpitch Softball Association
• National Flying Squirrel Association
• National Film and Sound Archive
• National Finance Students Association
• Nazarene Fellowship of Single Adults
• National Federation of Sea Anglers
• National Fraud Strategic Authority
• National Student Federation of America
• National Forensic Sciences Agency
• National Farm Security Act
• Norwegian Food Safety Authority
• National Filter Service Association
• National Forest Ski Area
• Nightingale Fisher Support Association

I think there was a meeting of the Bush family who got together and intentionally started all these sites so that we couldnt save the parks and they could be sold to Bush cronies. Or maybe it was Michele Obama and her extravagant staff that wanted them closed because "cave diving isnt good for you" and they know best. Maybe it was Buggs Bunny, because we were intruding on his underground Bunny Resort.

Seriously, I am hoping we can keep the conservative/liberal bashing out of this arguement and come together for a focused effort.

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www.northfloridaspringsalliance.org

Thanks Kelly,

I was being sorta fecetious about the link. I already joined this morning. I found it amusing there were this many orgs with the NFSA initials.

My favorite was National Flying Squirrel Association. Bound to be a fun bunch a people, ya think?

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Originally Posted by Skorpiov

Thanks Kelly,

I was being sorta fecetious about the link. I already joined this morning. I found it amusing there were this many orgs with the NFSA initials.

My favorite was National Flying Squirrel Association. Bound to be a fun bunch a people, ya think?

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Oh, oooohhh, Do you have a link?
:-)

I think the budget cuts are a damn good thing, and It's WAY overdue. Don't get mad, just get loud.

They politicians don't care where the cuts come from, they only care to piss the least number of people off. Most people are not going to care enough to make a big deal about a park being closed... but we are not most people.

I don't think there is enough of us to for mailed letters to make much of an impression, definitely not emails. We need to call, and follow-up, and follow-up. There are so few people willing to stand up these days, we will be noticed.

We need lists of people to call. If anyone has a shortage of good reasons to keep the parks open, we should start a thread with talking points. I have a good friend who was an oil lobbyist in a previous life. I will talk to him to see where we can best focus our attention.

Welcome to the National Flying Squirrel Association!
The gathering place for everything pertaining to flying furballs and the people that are owned by them.

http://www.nfsa.us/images/2009%20april%20winner.jpg

SG, These are for you... they sound as seriously obsessed as we are.


You Know You Are Obsessed About Your Flyer When...

• When asked how your babies are doing, you start talking about your flyers

• You get up at 2:30 in the morning to get more pictures of the wild flyers outside your window

• You're on a strict diet but the only menu you're obsessing over is your flyer's

• You know you're obsessed about your flyer when you don't notice that she peed in your bra and then when you do you just walk around all evening with squirrel pee in your bra...and many more

Back to the subject... Has anyone considered a petition? We could get shops and message boards to help gather supporters. 10K names on a list to save three parks might raise an eyebrow especially if someone put together a compelling arguement using the financials.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

No argument is complete without, "It's Bush's fault." :roll:

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But we havn't mentioned Nazi's yet...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skorpiov

Seriously, I am hoping we can keep the conservative/liberal bashing out of this arguement and come together for a focused effort.

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I agree 100%! This is a big reason so little ever gets done. Everyone is so busy arguing about it that we tend to forget we all want the same end result. It always reminds me of a magic trick, the hand is faster than the eye so to speak. While we're aguing over whose fault it is, the people that want the parks closed are accomplishing more because we are distracted. We need to stay much more focused.

I've often argued to keep politics (and religion for that matter) off the CDF. But I seem to be in the minority.

Eliminating discussions about poltics and religion would leave a whole lot more bandwidth for the things that are truly important - sex and cave diving, not neccesarily listed in order of importance.

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I've often argued to keep politics (and religion for that matter) off the CDF. But I seem to be in the minority.

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I'm with you!

Mike

I agree 100%! This is a big reason so little ever gets done. Everyone is so busy arguing about it that we tend to forget we all want the same end result. It always reminds me of a magic trick, the hand is faster than the eye so to speak. While we're aguing over whose fault it is, the people that want the parks closed are accomplishing more because we are distracted. We need to stay much more focused.


Amen to that!

Come on guys, a little humor never hurt anyone. It was a joke, for crying out loud. Maybe I shoud have used a smiley face?

Are you going to delete prufrock's post because he used the word "Amen"? Or netmage's because he used the word "Nazi"?

Personally, I enjoy the humorous thread drifts on this forum. Yeah, I'm a member of NFSA and support the intent of this thread, but don't get your boxers in a wad because someone makes a harmless joke with political overtones...

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Originally Posted by gasdiver

Come on guys, a little humor never hurt anyone. It was a joke, for crying out loud. Maybe I shoud have used a smiley face?

Are you going to delete prufrock's post because he used the word "Amen"? Or netmage's because he used the word "Nazi"?

Personally, I enjoy the humorous thread drifts on this forum. Yeah, I'm a member of NFSA and support the intent of this thread, but don't get your boxers in a wad because someone makes a harmless joke with political overtones...

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Apparently I didn't see your post so I have no idea about that but,
you're absolutly right, humor is good. I don't have my boxers in a bunch. I think for most people, its obvious when something is meant as a joke and when it isn't. I just really don't want to see this thread derailed into some political bashing. I really want to see everyone stick together on this one and honestly, the only way to be completely effective IMHO is to leave political views to the wayside. I mean, just look at the last several post, we've (including me) already gotten distracted.

I posted a comment on Rick Scott's facebook page, saying they should focus on medicaid fraud and stop paying for welfare and healthcare for illegal alliens to save money, and leave the parks alone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I've often argued to keep politics (and religion for that matter) off the CDF. But I seem to be in the minority.

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Yes, girls with an unusual, and perhaps unhealthy, affinity for fluffy tailed tree rats are in the minority.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gasdiver

Come on guys, a little humor never hurt anyone. It was a joke, for crying out loud. Maybe I shoud have used a smiley face?

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Was that the incredibly insightful and informative post warning us about the evil and cunning Bush conspiracy to derail the whole NSFA movement and sure closure of the springs? Insert smilie face here >>>>> :D

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

Was that the incredibly insightful and informative post warning us about the evil and cunning Bush conspiracy to derail the whole NSFA movement and sure closure of the springs? Insert smilie face here >>>>> :D

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I'm not laughing! This may be a joke to you guys, but I live in this state. A couple of parks closing is nothing compared to things that are happening here. Like I said, I saw this coming 12 years ago. You can call me crazy, but you also have to say that I was correct. Here is another one for you. It will get worse if we don't do something.
The fact is, politics caused this problem! I agree that in the short term a more focused approach may be needed, but unless we fix the economic mess that we have caused(quit digging), we won't accomplish anything meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Gene Powell

I'm not laughing! This may be a joke to you guys, but I live in this state. A couple of parks closing is nothing compared to things that are happening here. Like I said, I saw this coming 12 years ago. You can call me crazy, but you also have to say that I was correct. Here is another one for you. It will get worse if we don't do something.
The fact is, politics caused this problem! I agree that in the short term a more focused approach may be needed, but unless we fix the economic mess that we have caused(quit digging), we won't accomplish anything meaningful.

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Thats not just a singular state problem...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gene Powell

I'm not laughing! This may be a joke to you guys, but I live in this state.

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I'm bound by security restrictions and can't get into the specifics of what our agency found in your particular state or who/what specifically we looked at, but suffice to say no one was impressed at some of the organizational structure and legislative issues imposd by some real morons in the state capital that created some significant legal and fiscal problems. And in your state's defense (sort of) similar findings have been made in numerous other states. On the federal side of the coin, we also have to deal with incredibly bad decisions that get made at the federal level driven by ignorance, bureaucratic inertia or private agendas that probably don't represent the average voter/taxpayer very well.

Personally, I can't wait to get out of DC but that's hard to do when the economy is on it's ass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I'm bound by security restrictions and can't get into the specifics of what our agency found in your particular state or who/what specifically we looked at, but suffice to say no one was impressed at some of the organizational structure and legislative issues imposd by some real morons in the state capital that created some significant legal and fiscal problems. And in your state's defense (sort of) similar findings have been made in numerous other states. On the federal side of the coin, we also have to deal with incredibly bad decisions that get made at the federal level driven by ignorance, bureaucratic inertia or private agendas that probably don't represent the average voter/taxpayer very well.

Personally, I can't wait to get out of DC but that's hard to do when the economy is on it's ass.

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I understand!
On another note, Annette Long, one of our unsung heroes, has an article on the Gainesville Sun editorial page making great suggestions to our legislators about solving this problem.

Well, I fell really special today.

You might be asking yourself, "Why does Jeff feel so special?"

Well, I'll tell you. When I got home from racquetball tonight, there waiting for me on the counter was an official letter from the Office of the Governor.

OK, Rick didn't sign it, heck he probably never even saw it. But it does have a copied signature from Kira Frye from the Office of Citizen Services. It reminds me that Gov. Scott did not actually recommend any park closings (for the next two FY's anyway).

Reminds of that famous line by Steve Martin in the Jerk when he sees his name in the phone book.

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Originally Posted by diveconjeff

Well, I fell really special today.

You might be asking yourself, "Why does Jeff feel so special?"

Well, I'll tell you. When I got home from racquetball tonight, there waiting for me on the counter was an official letter from the Office of the Governor.

OK, Rick didn't sign it, heck he probably never even saw it. But it does have a copied signature from Kira Frye from the Office of Citizen Services. It reminds me that Gov. Scott did not actually recommend any park closings (for the next two FY's anyway).

Reminds of that famous line by Steve Martin in the Jerk when he sees his name in the phone book.

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I was privileged enough to receive the same letter.