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I noticed in the other thread a common challenge was running line. I am sure many people could benefit from some tips. I am looking for some tips and tricks some of you more experienced divers have learned over time, but probably would not be specifically taught in class.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Practice,practice,practice....
'bout sums it up.... :) Also depends what type of diving you're doing, line laying in SM's very different from laying line in BM....Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Safe diving,
Rich
P.S. Also with more practice you'll start seeing nubs and tie off points that you never did before...
Two things I know for sure are: 1) If I don't unwind and rewind my reels - for at least the lenght of line used on a previous run - and check the tightening nut before each dive (at the dive site) I am going to have problems, and 2) If I hang a spool on a double "D" clip anywhere outside of a pocket it won't be there when I need it.
keep the line tight
Try to look as far ahead of you as you can. Running line tends to focus you on the cave right in front of you, and that results in poor strategy in line running. I've had a lot of experiences where I ran the line well, I thought, but on the return trip, I could see how stupidly I had routed it.
Constantly evaluate where you are putting the line, for how easy it will be to follow it in zero viz. Putting the line where it's easy for you to run it may not be putting it where it will be most useful on exit.
If you are in front of the person with the reel on exit, don't take off ties that stabilize major changes in direction. If you can, convert them to placements -- that makes it easy for the reel man to pass the point, but doesn't leave anybody with a bunch of slack to manage.
If you're diving dry, move as much gas as you can to your suit prior to your exit. It's much easier to vent the suit while handling the reel on ascent, than it is to vent the wing.
That's the key. Most problems I see begin with a line not being taut. People hold the reel by the handle, and the line unspools at its own rate. You need to keep a finger on the reel to keep it from paying out more line than you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam0321
Any tips for those people diving in 45 degree quarries looking to start practicing running line? Blue drygloves with liners in them make it a tad difficult.
http://classic.mapquest.com/maps?1c=...169403&2v=CITYQuote:
Originally Posted by Garth
get your buoyancy first before you start futzing with the reel
Oh, that is a good one! I started out using my breath to adjust my buoyancy to put in a tie, and found my SAC rate was MUCH higher when running line than when I wasn't. A friend told me to adjust my wing or suit instead, and my gas usage came down considerably.
No tips for cold water practice, except that if you can manage a reel and make nice ties with your gloves on, doing it in warmer water will be a snap! Oh, and try to make sure your gloves aren't too long in the fingers. Extra glove material makes it darned near impossible to handle line well (says a surgeon, who knows . . .)
Look behind you.
And now for a serious answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garth
Find a shallow quarry. No need to suffer laying line in 45 degrees, when shallow quarries warm up in the summer. There was one that I used in VA, that was mostly deep/cold, but it had a shallow section about 15' deep. It gave better practice, since bouyancy s more critical in shallow water. It got stirred up easily, which added to the realism.
Unless you are in tight tunnel and need the line to be able to move to prevent line traps, or avoid snags.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam0321
Look for the smallest tie off points possible. One thing I see a lot with new or inexperienced divers is tie offs that required them to swim around in circles to lay the line. A tie off point the size of a fist or smaller is all you need.
That was good, I am still laughing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Best advice... make your buddy run the line!
Practice with the old Dive-rite reels.
One of the unexpected challenges of Florida was FINDING small tie-off points! I remember running line into the Ginnie Ballroom, and looking around at these big, flat rocks, and wondering how ANYBODY in Florida runs line. Mexico is full of perfect tie-off points -- little stalagmites, or other excrescences. Florida is full of big, blunt rocks. It takes creativity to run line there!
Creativity comes from experience.
Most of those big, blunt rocks have small nubs on them. You just have to look. I'm with Carl; experience helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
Cold water you really need a tight tolerence reel. I really like the Halcyon primary for this reason, thick gloves you can still hit the side for tension and get a nice smooth feed opposed to the DR that has the ridges for stiffness that catch on thicker gloves when you can't feel them. Another thing is to practice with a spool first then go to a reel after your comfortable.
Well to chime in on this one I find that while diving the same quarry as Garth it is much easier to use my OMS reel than the spool. With the reel I can hold the handle and use my fingures to apply tension to the drum. With the spools I am required to hold and pay out line with tension on the spool only. Using neo gloves it is rather hard to hold and decrease tension at the same time. The other factor is that after a while in the quarry, you can't even feel your finger tips. We run lines in the quarry in order to maintain our skills. the only thing that we don't have is flow. I think that if you can run lines in the quarry then you can run them almost anywhere.
Invaluable advice IMO :)Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
Sometimes the buddy behind the reel-runner has a better view of what is going on. If you will be running a long jump it helps to discuss it before hand and to let the reel-runner know you may be 'tugging' on their line to move or improve placements. Sort of a reverse of the buddy in front of the diver removing a line.
Thanks for the advice. I practice buoyancy on every dive and plan to til I stop diving. And i hope that day is long, long away. I've tried the spools but i don't have a great primary reel for running line. I have a Manta reel for shooting bags, a spool which I like and a dive rite reel which is not the greatest of all things for sure. I suppose I will wait until my cave class to buy a reel at the instructors recommendation although I like what the salvo/halycon version of things.
This is good. Thanks.
"The web page blocked by BitDefender included objects that were either infected or likely to be infected with a virus. Your system has NOT been infected". !Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Not your fault Russell ....the original post !
je
Try this one.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sour...e=UTF8&t=h&z=7
my wise and awesome cavern instructor gave me that bit of adviceQuote:
Originally Posted by limeyx
It doesn't relate specifically with running a reel, but a Jasper loop and hairball are invaluable IMO.
I just remembered something from years ago. Sheck Exley made his students practice laying line in the Ichetucknee river. It is great practice for places like Devil's Eye, Little River, and Manatee.
Here's another real simple tip based on my limited experience. Don't ever let anyone shame you into not running a reel. If you feel the need for one, whatever the reason, make that desire clear.
This should be covered in any cave class, but I'm not sure that is the case and it is worth repeating anyway.
1) Use primary reel/jump/gap line practices that make it easier for you and other teams to keep lines separate and easy to identify. One example is to l approach the mainline (when running a primary) or the line you are jumping to, from as a near right angle as possible to take up minimal space at the start of that line and to prevent two lines running more or less parallel where it could create confusion in a low viz exit.
This is important as the marking for the jump is usually directly across from the jump and if you go straight at the line you end up having two lines tied in a nearly straight line. Doing this hogs space on the line you are jumping to and if two teams make the same mistake it gets less clear and can potentially get tangled in a lights out/silt out exit. It's much better to run the line instead around a rock or cave feature near the line you are jumping to in order to hit the line at right angles whenever possible. A good example of this when running a primary is Orange Grove where divers often make the last turn by the sign and then come straigh up to the start of the gold line - in the same direction the mainline is running. A better option is to loop around a rock and then come into the mainline form either side. It makes it easier for multiple teams to tie in. Litte River is an even better example on busy days.
2) Stay out of the middle of the passage and don't cross from one side to the other if it can be avoided. This is important with a primary to reduce the spagetti/spider web effect, and it is important at jumps in heavy traffic areas or in places where scooters are used to stay out of the way and avoid entanglement issues if the viz deteriorates.
3) Be considerate of the divers who may have placed line ahead of you and be considerate and try to leave a workable route for divers who may be coming behind you.
4) Don't let your buddy always run the reel. Line running skills are perishable and they require practice to develop and maintain. 90% of it is just developing an "eye" for laying line and identifying good placements and tie offs and developing that eye takes practice in different caves and environments.
5) Be strategic and think ahead, even in the little details. For example, in P3 I'd prefer to do deco while doing something, so I will do a secondary tie off at 20' as it allows me to pull the line on the way out and ascend straight to the balcony to go play in the passage to P2 - and the line then runs straight from the blacony to my secondary tie off, so there is no need to sawtooth deeper to remove a secondary once the deco is done.
yes, dear...Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
Good advice, and to add to the 20' part.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
We were encouraged to look for tieoffs at (or as close to) 10',20',30' of depth (if possible) to make it easier to find your depths on a low vis or stressed exit, and also to provide good staging points for O2 bottles etc.
Actually in diving don't ever let anyone shame you into doing anything you're not comfortable with.Quote:
Originally Posted by diveconjeff
Let your buddy run the lines.
Yay! I take this to mean that you, as my esteemed team mate, will be running lines and making the jumps on about half our dives this next trip. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyDuck
as long as you get out of my way! ;)
I suspected that was the problem :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by BabyDuck
i love you, forrest. ;)
I am available for marriage and or buddy counseling... Remember DIR are from Mars and UTD are from Venus... (or is it the other way around?)
I have some freebee money on DRIS.com and thought I might get a primary reel as I don't have one yet.
I might be 6mo to a year away from cave training but would like to get one that I can use when I do.
Ive been looking at the light monkey explorer reel. Do instructors require more than 400' say the 800' version? Sorry to hijack the thread.
Thanks
I have never seen a training requirement for more than 400' of line on a primary.
Generally, you'll want a primary reel with about 400' of line and you'll want at least one safety spool with 150' of line.
. . . and sidemounters are from Uranus? ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by AB8CD
WJH (becoming one of the SMs next week, part-time anyway)
250' is generally enough for most caves. The explorer reel definitely has way too much line to use as a primary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garth
I forgot. What do we need to run a reel for again?
Reel?
So everyone else can critique you.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceman
:rollguyQuote:
Originally Posted by CGriffing
400' is a great size. It's actually a bit on the long side for most cave but useful for OW wreck dives and stuff like that. It's also enough to do the catacombs the long way. I recommend you skip the safety reel and get 150' and 50' spools. The 150' spools are great for safety and the smaller 50' perfect for most jumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garth
Try to get a good primary reel. It all comes down to what you like better but I'm a big fan of the Light Monkey/Halcyon type. Easy to control friction.
Has anyone tried the new Manta reel? The one that looks like the Light Monkey/Halcyon, but is made to work with a Goodman light handle. http://www.mantaind.com/images/dive_...1_divereel.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by chimie007
I am not trying to push their products but, I love and have never had any line complications with the OMS primary.
Exactly - expecially at the Intro level, a 400' reel gives you some more options within the limits of the cert, and it isn't too large for every dive use.Quote:
Originally Posted by chimie007
I am a fan of side handle reels and in particular a big fan of the Larry Green / Ralph Hood style reels.
http://www.tecdivers.com/images/reels20002.jpg
The Halcyon/Salvo/Light Monkey approach is based on the idea of minimum toleraces to prevent a birds nest. It's effective 99% of the time but that remaining 1% will be really tough to clear.
The Larry Green / Ralph Hood approach uses a very open design that is very easy to clear in the event you do end up with some backlash.
Both designs are well done in terms of being abel to control line tension, but personally, I prefer the Larry Green / Ralph Hood design for both control and the ability to resolve any issue in the water with no tools.
----
I also agree spools work well for gaps and jumps, but I prefer to use a small jump reel for longer jumps, especially in flow, and I am finding finger spools work great on the short ones.
The good points about 150' spools for a safety reel is that they are almost impossible to jam, are compact and are very easy to put into use in the dark, by feel alone.
I love my Larry Green reels for warm water when I don't have to wear gloves. If I use them while wearing dry gloves I find the lack of a barrier between the handle and the drum results in my fingers accidentally rubbing against the drum. In cold water I use my Light Monkey reel.
Awesome advice from all. I do a lot of cold water diving in a quarry with blue gloves so it seems like the halcyon 400' explorer will be the reel I get. Thanks again.
I appreciate everyone's advice. I am putting some of these tips to pratical use and it is helping.
if you really want to be good at reels, get an DR or even better an OMS reel, if you can manage to get out with the whole line inside the reel and not outside from 1 every 3 dives you are VERY good at reels :)
this thread reminded me my killer oms reel lol, that was 1 every 2 dives jam, I guess I never got good enough :(
Hey Garth, if you would like, you can try my OMS the next time we dive.
I have jammed up my reel so many times, I'm starting to think thats how it's supposed to be done.
hehe, is the brand between the 2 I mentioned? I bet so
I saw a Salvo explorer size reel being used for a jump at Madison this weekend...Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
There are a few very long jumps I make from time to time where I have used a 400' primary rather than a jump reel when it looks like the jump reel might come up a bit short. I can't think if one at Madison though...Quote:
Originally Posted by BUNIT
will do. by the way we need to do that soon. Ill PM you. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY CHANEY
Na this was an 800 or 1200 ft reel on a 5 ft jump, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
Interesting, but I've never had an issue running my sidewinder reels while holding my light with a goodman.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I dislike the double enders on these reels. I've replaced all of mine with regular bolt snaps.
i always remove the double ender. I think if I had a fixed clip on there it would get in the way
I use a DR Sidewinder and have pretty good luck with it. I haven't managed to jam it up yet. I guess I'm better than I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptuno