Wisconsin cave diving!

This is a heads up for everyone!
FYI: Cave diving as we know it in Wisconsin is currently outlawed by the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources. Under emergency legislation passed Dec. 8, 2010 by the Natural Resources Board to protect bats- cave diving would only be allowed by special permit, and with decontaminated gear (certified by the DNR) that is ONLY used in Wisconsin. The permission for use of gear that has been in other states is unlikely and the measure is cost prohibative to most cave divers.
Jeff Berry

Good idea. I don't know how many bats I've run down with my scooter over the years.

I havent seen any either! wonder if they dive on thirds?
Local government is out of control! You wouldnt belive the meetings that took place on this an the amount of people against it!

Don't laugh, that could happen in the southeast too. Legislators don't understand the difference between caves filled with air, and caves filled with water.

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Originally Posted by FW

Don't laugh, that could happen in the southeast too. Legislators don't understand the difference between caves filled with air, and caves filled with water.

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Yes, one is cold, damp and dark, the other is cold wet and dark.

Forrest is absolutely correct- it can happen to you in your communities. And I don't mean that as a scare tactic- it happened here.

At the meeting the DNR suggested buying affected businesses a couple of sets of dedicated equipment for cavers to use - this works for the commercial cave outfits but when I told them that an outfitted tech diver in a rebreather can be wearing over $10,000 on them when they enter a cave, the Natural Resource Board was unable to assist.

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

Forest is absolutely correct- it can happen to you in your communities. And I don't mean that as a scare tactic- it happened here.

At the meeting the DNR suggested buying affected businesses a couple of sets of dedicated equipment for cavers to use - this works for the commercial cave outfits but when I told them that an outfitted tech diver in a rebreather can be wearing over $10,000 on them when they enter a cave, the Natural Resource Board was unable to assist.

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Welcome to the forum Tammy, I am sorry it is under such sad circumstances!

Looking for suggestions and support.

will a letter writing campaign help

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

will a letter writing campaign help

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May be too late for that! But it cant hurt!

I just spoke with the DNR and what they are looking for is a decontamination plan for diving equipment. They are still unwilling to bend on the use of gear in Wisconsin which has been used out of state- UGH! I'm familiar with the US Fish and Wildlife decontamination protocals, but I don't know how continued and repeated cleaning with bleach and 409 are going to affect drysuit seals, rebreathers, camera equipment, etc. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? Are there any sump divers out there, and how are you dealing with decontamination?

Letter writing at this point is not needed- it's still early in this ruling. I'll let you know if we need to start writing to legislators- which may need to happen if all else fails sometime around March. This just seems so ridiculous.

We should come up with something. This would set a bad precident, it could effect cave diving anywhere in the US, including FL, MO, etc.

What we really need to do is convince DNR that there are no bats underwater.

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Originally Posted by FW

What we really need to do is convince DNR that there are no bats underwater.

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The problem is that several of our sites here in Wisconsin sump and they do have bats. This law does not deal with the site specific regulations or applications. Although many of the sites are completely inundated, and we don't come up in dry passage- with the sweep of a pen all cave diving is controlled under the law- so we need to treat all sites as far as decontamination protocals as if we will come in contact with the soil.

Hmmm, yea sumps would be an issue.

Try recomending this stuff. It is used to clean out rebreather hoses, and is safe to bathe in. Chlorhexidine Gluconate 2.0%.

What are we protecting flying rats, do they support the local economy. I think we should protect ourselves how many bats does Wisconsin need?

Thanks for the suggestion- is this a funguside?

And Forrest, thank you for recognizing that this is a very scary issue and should be of concern for the entire community of cave divers. Everyone should be concerned, because precident is how governments work.

Here we had a Bat Specialist and Endangered Species Specialist that altered the US Fish & Wildlife regulations to be more aggressive in regulating site access - throwing science to the wind and assuming the theory of humans as a vector in WNS spread as fact (theory is what it is at this point)...I still am reeling in the affect it will have on my business and the affect on exploration and discovery in our state and region.

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

Thanks for the suggestion- is this a funguside?

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Hmmm, good question. I was trying to think of something safe for gear. The ad only mentions bacteria.

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Originally Posted by darkdiver211

What are we protecting flying rats, do they support the local economy. I think we should protect ourselves how many bats does Wisconsin need?

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You won't think this is so funny, if US Fish and Wildlife gets all caves in the US closed!

http://www.fws.gov/whitenosesyndrome/

Chlorhexidine is a chemical antiseptic.[1] It is effective on both Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria, although it is less effective with some Gram-negative bacteria.[2] It has both bactericidal as well as bacteriostatic mechanisms of action, the mechanism of action being membrane disruption, not ATPase inactivation as previously thought.[3] It is also useful against fungi and enveloped viruses, though this has not been extensively investigated. Products containing chlorhexidine in high concentrations must be kept away from eyes and the ears, due to the risk of damage to those organs. However, chlorhexidine is safely used in very low concentrations in some contact lens solutions.

I know this will not help with any sump caves, but there appears to be a provision in the Wisconsin DNR rule to allow recreational activities in caves where bats have know to be excluded. This should allow continued diving in completly submerged caves where you can reasonably demonstrate that bats have been excluded.

Mark

Mark- That regulation is specifically for the 2 caves (Ledgeview and Maribel Caves) where the DNR has physically removed the bats and put in one-way bat gates on the cave openings- so the caves can remain open to tourists. They were making commercial caves choose between bats or humans up until this last meeting where they made additional provisions for the other commercial properties by purchasing several sets of caving gear for them to use specifially in their cave.

Cave diving falls under the same legislations as recreational caving, and the law applies to all cave and mine openings in the state whether submerged, semi-submerged, or not.

Tammy,

Thanks for the clarification. It is very unfortunate that the rule seems to have a resonable provision to allow recreational caving in caves where there are no bats, but the officials are interpreting it to only allow visitors in Ledgeview and Maribel Caves. This is serious and even though it is only in WI now; Forrest is correct the rest of us who enjoy recreation in caves could soon find ourselves in a similar situation.

Good luck

Mark

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Originally Posted by darkdiver211

What are we protecting flying rats, do they support the local economy. I think we should protect ourselves how many bats does Wisconsin need?

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In a sense, they do. They pollinate too, many foodstuffs would be hindered.

As a long time Wisconsin cave diver, this sucks big time. I hope we can get this fixed here before it spreads to other states.

Posted from my phone.

I know this is not strictly related to Cave Diving, but the Missouri government is already closing many caves. http://www.dnr.mo.gov/newsrel/nr10-280.htm

Many diveable springs in Missouri are closed to diving, or diveable by permit only, these dry cave closures just takes us further down the path of Legislators barring people from using natural resources.

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Originally Posted by FW

We should come up with something. This would set a bad precident, it could effect cave diving anywhere in the US, including FL, MO, etc.

What we really need to do is convince DNR that there are no bats underwater.

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Exactly what the concern is around here and why the word is being spread among the community of interested individuals. Not only is there strength in numbers but there are idea's as well.

I don't think it's funny Forrest, I think the government should be worrying about the jobless rate and the homeless and hungry folks that I take care of on a daily basis. Bats are not as important as hungry children.

December issue of National Geographic has an article detailing this bat problem if anyone wants to learn more about the problem.
John

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Originally Posted by darkdiver211

I don't think it's funny Forrest, I think the government should be worrying about the jobless rate and the homeless and hungry folks that I take care of on a daily basis. Bats are not as important as hungry children.

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Actually the governent does worry more about other stuff, or they would have solved the bat problem by now. Closing caves is the cheap, easy way out for the government. Unfortunatley, that makes it OUR problem now! Once government makes a decision, it is next to impossible to get it changed.

FWIW, if all the bats die, your hungry children will be even hungrier. With both bee, and bat populations dying in the US, the food supply will "die" too.

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Originally Posted by JDostal

As a long time Wisconsin cave diver, this sucks big time. I hope we can get this fixed here before it spreads to other states.

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Wow, the White Nose epidemic is continuing to spread across the US and wildlife entities are panicking as it approaches their states. This happened to us three years ago as it approached our prime caving lands. I consider us (in VA) to be fortunate to have responsive and mellow-minded bat folks that controlled what they could without over-reacting.

Here's my advice: Respect the cave closures and use this as an opportunity to open a dialogue with the folks responsible for making the closure happen (The WI DNR). Offer to help them monitor bat sites and keep in constant communication with the biologists that are so worried about the bats. White Nose is a serious threat to bat populations and as it reaches your state, the flying rats will decline and lose their ability to control your mosquito population whether you go caving/diving or not. Despite a lot of theories to the contrary, humans have not been proven to be a significant contributor to the spread of WNS.

Unfortunately for those that live in the northern states, WNS may not come and pass as fast as it has for us in the Appalachian states along the heaviest bat migration patterns. I'd imagine your "no-caving" period may last longer, but within 5 years most of the bats will be dead and you can go back to diving in caves with bat populations outside of hibernation and maternity seasons.

White Nose is to bats what the black plague was to humans many centuries ago, a simple herd-thinning disease. There's no evidence, at this point, that humans are going to make it better or worse, but the biologists are closing caves because they feel like they have to do something. Just grin and bear it, and use it as an opportunity to work with the biologists. Fighting it will just cause a lot of animosity on both sides.

Check out some of the WNS info at the NSS White Nose information site and search for the VA DGIF response to protecting bats while still allowing caving.

-Jon

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

They were making ........

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I'd like to chime in here and suggest something Tamara. The posts state "THEY" when referring to the DNR. It would be in your interest to find the name of a person or committee behind this policy and the specific motivation behind it. The DNR people in the public meetings are using work product of a subordinate DNR staff member assigned to propose the regulation. You will need to find that person. It may be a biologist, or other scientific or conservation advocate within the DNR (like any bureaucracy) that decides if a policy is needed and then sets out to create policy to address the issue.

The need for new policy may have come about from staffer(s) that are acting on personal motivation (no directives from outside the DNR forcing the issue) or one that addresses requirements placed on the DNR by some probable federal policy or procedure. If internal factors are the sole force behind the new policy you might be surprised to find some dedicated stewards of the cave environment who you need to make alliances with. If they are the product of a Federal guideline or a caving policy set elsewhere and in place solely to address requirements or other mandates imposed on the DNR there is not much you can do until you find out what the outside factor is. Often times outside influences are a square peg in round hole fix or a knee jerk reaction on the part of the DNR. Find the flaw, address it and work with them to make appropriate policy if needed.

I suspect the regs are a mandate from the federal government tied to funding. In some cases policies are there because they are really needed in other places. The government paints with a broad brush and imposes its very general policy on the states. It is a big help to have assistance and the not for profits. The conservation policies of the NSS-CDS and the NACD can be of help and often provide workable solutions in place elsewhere. The conservation and cleanup programs of both groups and cite stewardship already in use on a national and international level and paint with a fine brush to address local needs. It’s uphill but it seems the trend is national regulation, you in Wisconsin may be the canary in the mineshaft.

I'm going to try to reply to both Ken and Jon- and thank you both for your input.

I know EXACTLY who "they" is- specifically there are three individuals with in the WDNR - (not naming any names here) the lands manager, the head of endangered species division, and the bat ecologist. This is not a fight that I am just coming in to- I've been attending meetings, and public comment sessions, not to mention emailing my comments to the department for about 5 months now and I personally spoke before the Natural Resources Board last Wednesday. You are exactly correct in assuming the policy is based on personal motivation- I can spend hours giving you my theories on this- haha.

Interesting enough, WDNR policy is based around the incorrect conclusion that humans are a major vector in the spread of WNS. There have been multiple letters written to the DNR by the NSS, Bat Conservation Intl., and many, many other bat experts. Hazel Barton even came up here to dispute their conclusions, but the DNR's lawyer only let her address the DNR's bat working group for 5 mins. and then she was asked to sit down and be quiet. Working with the DNR has been a bit like talk radio- you are given a certain amt. of time to make your comment and then the staff can rebut or discredit your comment with whatever make-believe facts they can come up with and you can't stand up and say "hey, that's not true". It has been very, very frustrating.

The policy has changed a little bit since it's inception. There are advocates here in the Minnesota Speleological Survey Save the Bats Committee and a coalition of Wisconsin commercial cave owners who hired a high priced lawyer and have steered the policy to where it is now and will at least allow caving. But we still have a real problem- no one within DNR recognizes the difference between caving and cave diving. And the law has implications on all cave and mine entrances without regard to whether they are underwater, semi-submerged or dry. The law will only allow entrance to a cave or mine with permit/exemption, will only allow equipment into a cave that has been decontaminated via the US Fish and Wildlife procedures, and only allow equipment that has ONLY been used in Wisconsin and no other state. This is cost prohibititve to just about every diver I know...I mean who can afford a specific set of cave diving equipment for every state that you want to dive in.

What is unique in Wisconsin, is that the Natural Resources Board can vote into law emergency regulations when it involves an endangered or threatened species and it does not have to go past the legislators- it is immediate. Four species of bats were deemed by the NRB as threatened- so this allowed this all to happen at a very fast pace. The aforementioned "they" have been instructed by the office of the Secy. of the DNR to work with us (me) on an exemption to the law for cave diving. We (I) would like a blanket exemption for cave diving where an individual that does not leave the water will not fall under this law- also since the divers will not have contact with the soil where the spores of the fungus that result in WNS reside, I'm hoping that this should be allowed by DNR. Sump diving will be another issue and a bridge we (I) will cross later.

I sure hope this will all come to pass soon...thank you so much for your suggestions and support. I'll keep you filled in on what happens next.

Greetings Tamara I am sorry that is has happened and am concerned with others in the cave diving community.
This legislation is unfortunate but offers a great opportunity to convince responsible cave divers to commit to a information campaign.
It never ceases to amaze just how little the general population and law makers know about topics of which laws are being passed.
It is our responsibility, even when we should not have to become proactive as well as reactive on these issues.
Try to contact different cave diving associations to gain some support even if it is reference materials or information to present to your DNR / legislature.

This issue in WI can change and as many have been won over in the past it takes time to educate people that responsible use of cave environments.
Closing or prohibiting use is not going to help long term and the responsible use generates funds that can be used to further research and management techniques.
This is a reasonable objective that with some effort could be changed but it takes all of us to pitch in and do our part!
Peoples minds change one at a time!

JCG

Tamara,
Sounds to me like you have done a lot and are in good shape to identify the people that need to have their minds changed. I expected to hear that you were in worse shape than you reported. Identifying the specific people you need to deal with is usually the hardest part and you’ve already done that.

So as I understand it there has been no legislation, but regulation based on the authority of the DNR to act within a range of accepted policy and within the scope of their authority. You are challenging the policy within the DNR and not the organization itself.

Earlier a letter writing campaign was suggested and that is a good idea. Challenging some misguided policy decisions within the DNR is acceptable behavior from the citizens of a state and that goes a lot farther than challenging the DNR. Question in the letter as to how DNR staffers determined how a divers in an underwater cave can affect the existence of a bat? Ask how steel cylinders can be contaminated from out of state use? Point out how cave divers perform public services such as critter counts and obtain water quality samples. Point out how broadly applied DNR policy can have an adverse effect on cave environments. These letters need to be addressed to your legislators and specifically to the members of the committee of the legislature that handles the funding of the DNR. Have your supporters mail the inquiries to them. Other tactics include writing to the Chamber of Commerce and County officials in the areas of the caves citing the revenue that is lost because the public land use has been restricted. Attend the legislators budget hearing when the DNR come up for funding. Ask for time to testify. Write to the head of the DNR citing your concerns.

TO SOME IT UP CHALLENGE THE UNWISE DECISIONS OF THOSE WITHIN THE DNR NOT THE DNR.

The people you cited as being in position to pull the strings are subject to pressure within their bureaucracy from above and below. It is your job to apply pressure on those above them and those outside the DNR are in the best position to do that. They will respond to a legislator inquiry as to why they are targeting cave diving. Your statement as to how they would not let you and others speak at a meeting highlights their vulnerability. Ask the legislators for a hearing where nationally recognized experts who support your position can testify to matters that DNR people refused to hear. Offer to invite DNR staffers to present their CV's so that they can rebut your expert's opinions.

They will back off and eventually and make access easier. They will not "lose" in public and they won't return to the "old days" because organizations need regulation in order to have authority and added authority brings about budget increases. Have faith that they will form a reasonable policy allowing access. Sign of the times I'm afraid.

Again- thank you for so many excellent suggestions!

Just to clarify, this is already law. It became law last Wednesday. Because of the emergency order by the Natural Resources Board, it will not go in front of the State Legislature to be voted upon - it bypasses them and goes directly into law. It's law now. There has already been a letter writing time, and a public comment time, and those have passed. Right now we are in the implimentation phase, where DNR works with land owners in education of the new law and conservation wardens in upholding the law. Last Wednesday, I was told by the Secretary of the DNR himself, that I would need to meet personally with members of their staff to write in the adjustments to this law that will be necessary to allow cave diving specifically- an exemption is what they are calling it. I am hoping that they finally call me back this week and we can get this taken care of right away.

The stickler seemed to be over the fact that cave divers equipment is used in other states besides Wisconsin (heaven forbid we dive in Florida or Missouri). It's frustrating and seems so easy to see that this is not an issue for divers who do not have contact with the soil. Hopefully coming back fresh after the weekend I can break through. I teach a lot of cave diving classes here, and we have a pretty active little community- I need to make this work!

If this is unsuccessful I've already plotted my next move. I'm going to need to contact the newly elected governor. He pledged in his campaign to reduce the size and power of the DNR - I need to figure out who within his task force is leading this project and make them help me! I am so apolitical, Ken, it seems backwards that I'm the one leading the charge on the Capital here in Madison.

Tami,
I already let Jim Holperin in on this! He has helped on annother issue!

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

I'm going to need to contact the newly elected governor. He pledged in his campaign to reduce the size and power of the DNR - I need to figure out who within his task force is leading this project and make them help me! I am so apolitical, Ken, it seems backwards that I'm the one leading the charge on the Capital here in Madison.

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Think about first starting a dialogue with your local elected state representatives. You'll find it easier to talk to them and it will give you the opportunity to polish your approach if you need to involve the new Governor. Consider targeting/challenging the key people in the DNR who made the crucial decisions and not the DNR itself. Being apolitical is an asset! Politicians want you on their side and you have a sincere cause and a right to make them earn your trust .... use it to your advantage.

Press the point that they have made decisions about activity in underwater caves and their rules make no distinction. Press the point they refused to listen and merely adopted federal protocols. They took the protocols of the Park Service which is a part of the US Dept of Interior and the Fish and Wildlife Service which is a part of the Department of Agriculture and made rules that make no sense for Wisconsin cave divers. Be adamant that the staffers refused to listen because the were dealing with an issue not covered by the federal protocols they adopted. Suggest they took an easy way out. Make the point that tanks can be scrubbed and debris is routinely removed from breathing apparatus so as to ensure its functionality.

From the net I can see that you are dealing with an administrative rule they recently passed "Conservation officials work to ward off white nose syndrome for state bat population - 12/09/10 The DNR Board hopes it's bought some time for cave bats, with the passage of three rules Wednesday."

Their 10/27/2010 minutes reflect what they did. It seems they followed Federal policy and the recommendations of the NSS. See below: You need to address the decontamination as it applies to how it affects divers under water


"Mr. Ela requested the Department respond to three categories of issues heard during public appearances: 1) decontamination, 2) legal orders, and 3) adequacy of outreach to-date.
Laurie Osterndorf, Land Administrator spoke on decontamination concerns. She distributed the protocol the Department is advocating to the Board. It is posted on the website and is the same as the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (F&WS) and the National Park Service (NPS) protocol. The Department met with the WI Speleological Society. The National Speleological Society sent out a letter supporting decontamination. Ledgeview Cave is already doing this. Teachers are happy as it gives them another tool to educate their students. (HANDOUT)
Discussion followed on when this protocol was made available, whether the Department has reviewed the draft Federal WNS policy which may include decontamination, whether the Department would have the necessary tools in place if today’s emergency rule is not approved, whether the Department has inspection authority without the emergency rule."

If they cite the recommendation of the NSS agree with them, but to me more accurate the Cave Diving Section routinely deals with water filled cave access and they would like to ensure the any action is in the best interst of the water filled caves. FWIW, I think you'll do all right Gotta Go!!!

It looks like much has already been said... but I cannot resist pointing out an analogous situation that may offer some guidance. The ARRL (amateur radio relay league) has been fighting local and regional antenna restrictions regulations for years. They have developed excellent information packets as well as legal council for Hams all over the country. They have built up lobbying resources and networks (some have taken years to establish). They have recognized that what effects one region may quickly become precedent for others... It might behoove our Cave Diving organizations to look at what others have done in these areas. The ARRL is not a perfect organization but they have done well in this area.

I love the article that Ken quoted from - it shows EXACTLY the kind of spin of we are seeing within this process here.

The Lands Administrator "says" it's the same protocol as Fish & Wildlife- and everyone believes it, because it is printed in the paper! But Hazel Barton, who helped to write the Fish & Wildlife policy came here to speak against the logic they were using and additional restrictions Wisconsin added to their protocol. It's the difference between the wording "it's based on USF&W" and "it's the same as USF&W"- big difference when it comes down to it -ugh! The other spin I've seen is "we are working with NSS and Bat Conservation Intl." - the DNR received letters from these groups against the policy- I guess you can say that you're receiving input aka working with them if they send you "hate" mail! Then in the NRB meeting in October- the Land Administrator said that the department was working with cave owners- yet all the major cave owners were there at the meeting and testified that no one had been to their properties or even called them- but they had received a form letter telling them of the pending policy changes! It's unreal- it makes you almost paranoid that you need to be critical of everything you see put out.

Your suggestions are priceless, Ken- and everyone else for that matter that has contributed to this thread. I promise to keep you in the loop to how things turn out!

Tammy, you did see this post, didn't you?

Chlorhexidine is a chemical antiseptic.[1] It is effective on both Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria, although it is less effective with some Gram-negative bacteria.[2] It has both bactericidal as well as bacteriostatic mechanisms of action, the mechanism of action being membrane disruption, not ATPase inactivation as previously thought.[3] It is also useful against fungi and enveloped viruses, though this has not been extensively investigated. Products containing chlorhexidine in high concentrations must be kept away from eyes and the ears, due to the risk of damage to those organs. However, chlorhexidine is safely used in very low concentrations in some contact lens solutions.

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

- it makes you almost paranoid that you need to be critical of everything you see put out.

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Yup!

Forrest- I did see the chlorhexidine post! I sent some follow up questions about it to a chemist friend, and a microbiologist friend downtown at the University of Wisconsin to get opinions on whether it may be effective on geomyces. They were going to spend a little time looking at it and come up with possible other options and conclusions before I offer that up to my DNR friends. I'll let you know what they come back to me with!

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

Forrest- I did see the chlorhexidine post! I sent some follow up questions about it to a chemist friend, and a microbiologist friend downtown at the University of Wisconsin to get opinions on whether it may be effective on geomyces. They were going to spend a little time looking at it and come up with possible other options and conclusions before I offer that up to my DNR friends. I'll let you know what they come back to me with!

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I hope you have good luck!! It would solve one problem, but it would be better for all of us, if they would reverse their decision.

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Originally Posted by FW

I hope you have good luck!! It would solve one problem, but it would be better for all of us, if they would reverse their decision.

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Forrest,

My suggestion is to have the DNR REVISE their decision! When speaking "BU-Speak" a reversal is a lose/lose for the bureaucrat as it indicates a bad decision. The change is something recognized as something forced on them and may be something not allowed by federal guidelines. It is far easier to ask them to REVISE their protocols ... giving them the out saying they made a "good" choice even better as it addresses local issues.

What I see is a potential problem for everything bureaucratic and outside the "cookie cutter." With mandates from DC based on the executive powers of the new "Czars" bypassing legislators in Washington there is no longer the customary check and balance. Federal Department and Bureau power is spreading to the states via the in-house protocols and to enforce it they tie it to funding. Cash strapped states either fall in line or lose $$$$$.

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

Forrest- I did see the chlorhexidine post! I sent some follow up questions about it to a chemist friend, and a microbiologist friend downtown at the University of Wisconsin to get opinions on whether it may be effective on geomyces. They were going to spend a little time looking at it and come up with possible other options and conclusions before I offer that up to my DNR friends. I'll let you know what they come back to me with!

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Tami- Chlorhexadine Gluconate is the active ingredient in Hibiclens so at least we're already familiar with it. Hope it turns out to be an effective agent. We appreciate all you are doing!

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/2010/December/12-10-NRB-Brief-of-Action.pdf


From page 3-
"...Ms. Wiley requested the Department craft a release form for use by landowners and cavers to certify that cave gear and/or cave diving gear used outside the state of Wisconsin had been properly decontaminated prior to use in Wisconsin caves. ...

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/2010/December/12-10-NRB-Brief-of-Action.pdf

From page 3-
"...Ms. Wiley requested the Department craft a release form for use by landowners and cavers to certify that cave gear and/or cave diving gear used outside the state of Wisconsin had been properly decontaminated prior to use in Wisconsin caves. ...

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Like the landowner would have a clue :roll:

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Originally Posted by Garyd

Tami- Chlorhexadine Gluconate is the active ingredient in Hibiclens so at least we're already familiar with it. Hope it turns out to be an effective agent. We appreciate all you are doing!

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Another possibility would be Virkon:
http://www.duboisdistributors.com/ca...showprevnext=1
Which is active against bacteria viruses and fungi.

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Originally Posted by Garyd

Another possibility would be Virkon:
http://www.duboisdistributors.com/ca...showprevnext=1
Which is active against bacteria viruses and fungi.

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There are a lot of things that kill fungi, but are thy safe for dive gear?

Vircon, is one of the recommended product to clean the rebreather. I hope is safe for dive gear :tick . However, you need to rinse well. I really don't know on dry suit, maybe not so bad for once, not for repeat ???

Paul

There was some discussion of the WDNR rules on TAGnet. I thought this might be interesting.

While the materials below are not as cheap as bleach, they are not as
destructive either. Bleach & nylon are not compatible. so this is a
concern for vertical cavers as well as cave divers.

Lysol® IC Quaternary Disinfectant Cleaner with a minimum of 0.3% quaternary
ammonium compound –
1:128 dilution or 1 oz:1 gal water Lysol® All-purpose Professional
Cleaner -with a minimum of 0.3% quaternary ammonium compound Formula
409® Antibacterial All-Purpose Cleaner -with a minimum of 0.3%
quaternary ammonium compound
For more information, refer to WNS on the NSS home page.

Had my first meeting with our WDNR liaison...just wanted to thank everyone for their input and suggestions. Writing up our suggested policy for cave diving this evening for him- I'll let you know what the feed back is!

Great news. Thank you so much for putting in all of this effort for the benefit of a pretty niche community in the midwest. It is very appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

Lysol® IC Quaternary Disinfectant Cleaner with a minimum of 0.3% quaternary
ammonium compound –
1:128 dilution or 1 oz:1 gal water Lysol® All-purpose Professional
Cleaner -with a minimum of 0.3% quaternary ammonium compound Formula
409® Antibacterial All-Purpose Cleaner -with a minimum of 0.3%
quaternary ammonium compound

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I thought I might add to Forrest's post by saying that all this is straight from the VA Cave Board's and later the Fish & Wildlife Service's recommendations for decontamination for WNS spores. Quaternary Ammonium, the active ingredient in most but not all 409 & Lysol brand cleaners has been found to kill all Geomyces (White Nose) spores when used according to the FWS protocols:

http://www.fws.gov/WhiteNoseSyndrome...col_073110.pdf

While bleach is an option under the protocol, the Quat was added as an option for life-safety equipment (ropes, harnesses, etc.) that has been shown to degrade when used with bleach. This came after the hard work of folks such as Hazel Barton who did a lot of the research. The creation of a protocol within the state of VA as well as the Federal FWS came through the hard work of our hardworking bat folks in VA (Rick @ DGIF & Wil @ DCR) as well as the Butler Cave Conservation Society, the Cave Conservancy of the VAs and the VA Cave Board. Without all this hard work, caving would not have been allowed in the state of VA at the levels that it did during the last three years since White NOse was first discovered here.

Tamara, keep up the hard work. The success that we had in VA came because of the hard work that people like yourself did here. Suggest to them to leave decontamination protocols open to new chemicals that can be proven to kill the spores of Geomyces so that they can be added if they can also be shown to be safe for dive gear in case Quat is not an option.

-Jon

PS It should be noted that household Lysol typically does not contain enough Quat for Decon protocols. Be sure to look for professional grade Lysol if you need to find it.

I wanted to give everyone a little update. I wrote up a proposal for an outright exemption for cave divers remaining in the water so that they can use gear from other states with little to no inconvenience. I then compiled suggestions from posts here and from others working hard in the field to formulate a protocal for divers sump diving and dealing with harsh chemicals v. life support equipment. This was submitted to the WDNR before the holidays. I recieved notice that these were evaluated by Wisconsin staffers and sent up the USFWS for review just prior to Jan. 1. Last week however the original rules concerning WNS and entering caves, decontamination, etc. were sent up to the legislative committies- I'm not certain how they are going to deal with the exemptions currently under review for cave diving, etc. One of our divers, Ethan Brodsky, has written to the chair of the State Senate Natural Resources and Environment Committee to make him aware of the situation.

Good luck up there! It could effect cave diving all over the country, even in Florida.

Hey heres a cool thing that came from all the fun DNR crap!
http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_im...%2F6655136.jpg
outlawcavedivers
www.outlawcavedivers.com Sells t-shirts, sweatshirts for outlaw cave divers. Outlaw Cave Divers in Wisconsin Cave diving, florida cave diving, missouri cave diving at roubidoux springs

I just got protocal suggestions back from USFW and WDNR....Does anyone know the ramifications of shoaking a full set of dive gear in "quaternary ammonium detergent"? Will this have detrimental effects on any materials, ect?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

I just got protocal suggestions back from USFW and WDNR....Does anyone know the ramifications of shoaking a full set of dive gear in "quaternary ammonium detergent"? Will this have detrimental effects on any materials, ect?

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Check post #51. I haven't tried it, but it is supposed to be safer than bleach.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FW

Check post #51. I haven't tried it, but it is supposed to be safer than bleach.

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It's ok with nylon, but what will this do to latex or rebreather parts? What about repeated rinsing in this stuff- any worries?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

It's ok with nylon, but what will this do to latex or rebreather parts? What about repeated rinsing in this stuff- any worries?

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I wish I knew!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkdiver211

I don't think it's funny Forrest, I think the government should be worrying about the jobless rate and the homeless and hungry folks that I take care of on a daily basis. Bats are not as important as hungry children.

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:roll: Here's a link for you.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Wildlife...anceofBats.htm

Greetings again from the front lines in Madison, Wisconsin!
Just wanted to give you all an update...WISCONSIN IS OPEN FOR CAVE DIVING!!!

On the first page of the current decontamination protocol produced by WDNR at 2:30 yesterday afternoon (http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/er/bats/pdf/WNS_decon_protocols.pdf) is this:

Clarification regarding diving and cave diving:
- Diving in lakes, rivers or any other surface water body is exempt from these decontamination protocols.
- Cave diving at sites that are fully inundated with water (no air pockets and no air chambers) is exempt from these decontamination protocols.
- The department is currently working with the diving community to develop decontamination protocols for sump diving. While the protocols are in development, decontamination protocols are not required for sump diving.

We started a phone-your-legislator campaign amongst the general diving community, and just about every diver in the State contacted their representative because the original language inadvertently excluded entrance to mine pits and quarries too. With the political unrest going on here, legislators were happy to receive calls about something other than union rights and we were able to get their ears! I, along with several Wisconsin cave divers attended the State Assembly Natural Resources Committee this morning. Ethan Brodsky and I were both able to speak before the committee. My favorite comment was from Rep. Danou who said "I get the cave diving exemption, bats don't live underwater.....". If only we could have come to that conclusion months ago....but better late than never.

At our last meeting with WDNR Endangered Species group we were able to convince them to cleave off sump diving and we'll have to work out issues related to decontamination of gear at a later date and after more research.

Just goes to show that a small group of determined people really can make a difference. Let me know when you all want to come up for a dive.

Well done! Great work!

Sweet!

Congrats!!!!

Fantastic! Great work Tammy, and everyone else that helped. It may prevent UW cave closures it other states!

Score one for cave divers!

Tremendous outcome. Your hard work paid off. Congrats!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamara Thomsen

Greetings again from the front lines in Madison, Wisconsin!
Just wanted to give you all an update...WISCONSIN IS OPEN FOR CAVE DIVING!!!

Just goes to show that a small group of determined people really can make a difference. Let me know when you all want to come up for a dive.

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Absolutely right! Congratulations for the victory and the establishment of a precedent that can be modeled elsewhere if needed. /K

Tami is awesome, she has done so much for cave diving in Wisconsin and for our little community up here. It is great that we can continue to root around underground now. Thanks for everyone's input and support!

congrats and thanks as fw says this helps us all .

"Just goes to show that a small group of determined people really can make a difference. Let me know when you all want to come up for a dive'
Tamara for sure your determination has always been an example to many. Congratulations you for sure opened a way for all cave divers to fight for the right to cave dive and have the cave open.

Thanks for the hard work Tamamra.