http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-proves-deadly
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is he saying that Sheck died because he panicked???? Certainly seems to imply it, the way I read it...
and I don't buy that one...
Is the writer a cave diver or even a scuba diver?
Interesting. I won't bother to pick out all the cracks in this article, just the most obvious: the use of the term "spelunker", the idea that Hole in the Wall is part of Jackson Blue, and the insinuation that panic was the cause of Sheck Exley's death without a mention that he was pushing the limits of deep diving down around 900 feet at the time.
About what I'd expect from Psychology Today, which is a mass market magazine with more in common with People magazine than with an actual peer-reviewed professional journal.
Which leads me to my next rant: the low standard of accuracy and lack of familiarity with the facts that characterizes most journalism. Whenever I read an article about a topic with which I'm familiar, it is almost always inaccurate. I can't help but believe that articles about the vast areas of knowledge of which I'm ignorant are similarly inaccurate; I just don't know enough about them to pick it up. I can only try to be amused rather than disgusted, and to cultivate a healthy skepticism rather than bitter cynicism.
You can see that I got up on the cranky side of the bed this morning - my only excuse is that I'm in the midst of trading pickup trucks - a process that always makes me grumpy!
Mike
How about, "...Jackson Blue Spring, a long, deep lake in the Florida panhandle..." ?
Well, it is a long lake in the panhandle, so 3 out of four facts in one sentence are correct. 75% accuracy is probably better than average!
Mike
What garbage... and obviously written by someone who NEVER dove in his life.
Scott
I can envision non-diving spouses waving this in the faces of cave divers: "I told you that cave diving was insane!"
Fortunately I have a cave diving wife, so either we are both crazy or neither of us is.
Mike
Why would you want to allow the facts to confuse the issues? You must be some sort of libertarian, or rastafarian, or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
Let's not overlook the one fact in the article, if you panic, you probably will die.
Heartily agree. And if you ever worked in (any) scientific field and saw the push (financial, personal or institutional ambition or whatever you call it etc) to spew out "results", you will fairly soon realize that there is even more reason for skepticism and cynicism. There are different levels of People magazines and articles in scientific publications too, just harder to spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
The only true FACT in the article...Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I have to wonder, the author references "William Morgan who has done 10 years of research".....and references experienced divers having panic for no apparent reason. Do you think some of these "surveys" we've been asked to respond to from a "college student working on this or that thesis" has been a ruse, (or one of Morgan's TA's/graduate students)? Or what about that thread we had a while back about feeling uneasy on a dive, etc., are we fueling these authors with minor data they are inflating for their own personal gain or notoriety?
Just my two cents.....the hoops academia has to jump through to get their phd, tenure, full prof status, or what have you, is very competitive.
Mike - As a fellow EMT (retired), I, as well as you know the answer to that (journalist issue)... Never let the truth get in the way of a "good story..." ie. one that will generate readership/viewers and thus, advertising revenue... :mad: Controversy sells man... I got real good at avoiding the media on serious EMS calls.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
The only thing we can do is counter it with our own message - Get the training, follow the rules, stay within your limits, and it will work... might even enjoy it.
As a graduate student who has gotten survey responses from members of this and other diving forums once before, and who is preparing to do so once again for yet another research class, I have to honestly say that I have never given my data to anyone in any form aside from the finished paper. The original data has never been seen by anyone other than me. I belief in being honest with people and would never do something slimy like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
I wonder if in a true panic I would rip a regulator out of my mouth. I have a friend who doesn't like breathing from a regulator that breathes hard. I on the other hand prefer regulators that actually take a little work to breathe on. I trust regulators to provide me with air, and when I get stressed I have never felt like a regulator was inhibiting my breathing. With a regulator in my mouth I feel nice and relaxed. Perhaps it's an oral fixation like why some people smoke, or perhaps I'm crazy, and perhaps in a blind panic I would rip a regulator from my mouth. However, in the two "come to Jesus" moments I've had, I never once gave any thought to my regulator and removing it from my mouth or felt that it wasn't functioning right.
Libertarian,kind of... Rastafarian, nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
I really like Italian food, though - maybe I'm a Pastafarian!
Mike
Dr. Morgan is a respected sports psychologist. I'm sure he has had his share of grad students, etc. I think he's retired now. He has many publications in the field of sports, but this is the first I heard he ever studied cave divers and/or panic. I did a quick review of his publication list and didn't see anything at all on panic or cave diving. Mostly it's about the positive benefits of exercise on mental health. There must have been a grad student in there somewhere doing cave diving...?
edit: Found it:
1.
Academic Journal
Trait Anxiety Predicts Panic Behavior in Beginning Scuba Students.Detail Only Available By: W. P. Morgan. International Journal of Sports Medicine, May2004, Vol. 25 Issue 4, p314-322, 9p
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I have posted this before, but in over 50 years of diving, I have only had to share gas a handful of times, and in none was the person really out of air, or even had a real problem with the regulator. I have recovered divers that did have air available to them, but panicked, and tried to swim out of the cave. One ripped his mask off on exit (well attempted exit, he was going the wrong way).
In the early years of dive training, it was a requirement for students to do a "broken regulator" drill in the pool. It consisted of several tanks with a variety of malfunctioning regulators. Things like leaking exhaust valve, leaking inhalation diaphragm, freeflow, broken hose, etc. You had to swim from one tank to the next, holding your breath. You weren't allowed to go to the surface. If you couldn't solve the problem, you could go to your buddy for air. Divers that passed that drill are much less likely to panic over regulator problems then those that don't do the drill.
Forrest, you have just given me an idea for a shallow water drill for my next OW class. I think PADI would have a cow if I did it in the deep end, but I think this could be done within current standards in the shallow end. I could make a game out of it.....musical tanks or such. If we can do a simulated CESA, I can't see why we can't do this drill you outlined.
I too have collected data from members of the forum. Nothing sneaky about it. And it has in no way fueled my noteriety or resulted in personal gain (my university likes us to publish, but does not require it, so my job is secure without publications). I have presented findings at various psychology conferences, but nothing published yet - maybe next year if I can get off my lazy butt and write it up (so much easier talking about it). No one has called or interviewed me for any articles in magazines or newspapers or anything else for that matter.
in sum, from the data I've gathered comparisons of scuba divers and nondivers show that scuba divers are lower in trait anxiety, higher in self-esteem, less socially inclined, more open to new ideas, and more inventive (as compared to nondivers). They also are higher in thrill seeking, more easily bored, and more likely to try exotic food. Cave divers are the worst of the lot with all the traits of the scuba diver compared to nondivers, but more of it, so they ratchet everything up a notch (less anxious, even higher in self-esteem, etc.). Except for two things. They exhibit the highest level of impulse control of the three groups (whereas nondivers and scuba divers are similar). And thrill seeking and boredom are on par with nondivers. It is odd to me that scuba divers show high thrill seeking, but cave divers do not. I can only speculate that it is thrill-seeking that may at first attract one to scuba, but those that move on to cave diving have perhaps sated the thrill-seeking aspects of their personality! However, thrill-seeking wanes with age and experience, so it may be that cave divers as a group are simply a bit older and wiser than scuba divers (who do tend to be younger). And of course good impulse control is a nice characteristic for cave divers - maybe even required for successful completion of training!
We have often thought of giving an anxiety survey to beginning scuba students in our academic dive program to identify those likely to experience difficulties in the pool, but so far it's just so obvious that a formal survey is not needed. They are nervous, a bit frightened, hesitant at doing skills, and tend to do them poorly. Even the swim test (survival float especially) shows us the nervous nellies. The ones that scare me are the ones that do everything with ease....we give them a bit of "extra" attention.
Until a fews ago we did the "musical tanks" skills FW mentioned, and we had a "final exam" we called Shark Night. With foil in the mask they swam around the pool with one hand on the side of the pool - all single file. Then we'd toss stuff into the pool ahead of them. chairs, desks, tables, ladders, poles, basketball hoops, fish nets, ropes, etc. Assistants on scuba then "sneak" up on the unsuspecting student and undo weight belt buckles, turn off air, pull regs out, flood masks, unbuckle or remove fin straps, etc. Of course the most difficulty usually came from the fellow students who would bump into them when they stopped to figure out something. The agencies (YMCA and NAUI) told us we couldn't do Shark Night anymore. I don't know how they found out we were doing that, but they actually sent us a letter saying we were not permitted to do it anymore.
But I can tell you that Shark Night was the most feared final exam on campus. And when over, the students had a confidence that you could easily see in their eyes. It really brought home the idea that you can solve all problems underwater. We have also been doing studies on how scuba training affects self-efficacy (Bev? you here?), self-esteem, body image, confidence, etc.
skip
This is a great and fun drill, we did this at NC State pool for NAUI OW cert.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
About the hoops of academia, talking from a point of view of a researcher: IT is true, we need to publish or perish but the cost is higher if you publish something that one cannot reproduce, is based on false data, or it is plagiarism. All of these are academic death, so I think no researcher that respects him/herself provokes these in their knowledge...
I am not sure about psychology it is a quite different science. In computer science we start from hypothesis, model in theory, simulation and experiment in practice and only at this time you can publish something that has impact. Your peers will judge this and say if you can be published.
Maybe this magazine is not peer reviewed and I am not sure how respectable it is.
Edit: A closer look: this magazine is not scientific and the writer is not a psychologist. I do not know about Dr. Morgan, but I guess the ref. to his name is the only scientific part to this writeup.
Psychology Today is not respectable at all. Students are not permitted to cite it in term papers and we do our best to explain to them that it's contents are hogwash. It's main mission it to make money for its publishers and perhaps entertain the uneducated. We do have serious peer-reviewed scientific journals, which are as you characterize your field - hypothesis, modeling, etc.
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Well, for someone who doesn't dive, 100' is deep...Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I really get tired of people trying to represent cave diving as the most dangerous sport. They obviously haven't done their research.
What part of the mill pond is 100' deep? He didn't say "long deep cave".Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
That makes sense... Indeed this did not seem like a formal journal. Thank you for clarifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
It seems like this isn't even a serious article but merely a "blog."
For you psych types - Are there any diagnostics to determine predisposition to a total shutdown in reaction to panic?
I've only 'lost it' once - after falling in an ice cave and becoming wedged in a near-vertical crack. I was alone and under-geared. The tunnel vision passed after a few moments, but that would be all it takes in a water-filled cave to set yourself up for the end. I was only 13 or 14 at the time, so perhaps biological and psychological immaturity may make this not-so-telling for me.
Also - while I don't recall it being called Shark Night, 'that night' of YMCA scuba class was the most valuable scuba training exercise I've ever experienced! Builds significant confidence, while reducing ego!
That experience has probably made you much less susceptible to panic attacks. I have had a few like that over the years, and each one has made it easier for me to deal with stressful situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by refinished
Forrest, I totally agree with you. Any experience in stifling panic is useful in the next stressful situation. I had years of dealing with situations spiraling out of control (patients have a way of doing that) and we said about our second year of residency, that your panic button got pushed so often it didn't work any more. Certainly, the high-stress situations I've been in underwater have each worked to give me greater self-control for the next.
However, I will say that, if you are air-hungry enough, you may remove your regulator. I had a cold water immersion experience that left me severely short of breath, and damned if I didn't take my regulator out to see if I could breathe better without it. (I couldn't.) I was on the surface, though . . .
I like that "panic button" analogy :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
I have done hard surface swims, and was overbreathing the reg so bad, that is did work better to remove it. A wave breaking over you might negate that, however.
Agree with everyone, especially if this article had shown up in Advanced Diver Magazine, NACD Journal, etc. But it didn't.
On the bright side (of the article, and not the death), this is an article that avers the dangers of cave diving + is aimed at the general public. Chances are that many OW divers (and yet-to-be-OW divers) may read it or have read it. Nothing wrong, IMO, with letting people know that it's dangerous in a cave, even if the message does smack of sensationalism.
I don't know of any diagnostics to determine predisposition to panic. However, the article was correct in stating that higher trait anxiety is an indicator of individuals likely to panic. The problem is that low anxiety individuals also panic. There are two forms of anxiety - State and Trait. Trait is the stable personality characteristic. those high in trait anxiety rarely take scuba lessons. State anxiety is induced by the situation. Although there is no scientific evidence, I suspect that experiences contribute to panic immunity (or near-immunity), which is one reason our training is so oriented towards solving all the what-can-go-wrongs.
skip
It's over by the deep section of Jackson Blue... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Arguably it's one continuous body of water sothe deepest point in the caves is the deepest point in the lake... :)
what is the symptoms Panic psychology and how you can prevent it??...:)
One symptom I have is realizing I forgot to hook up my pee valve after I am already in the cave. :)
Seriously though, breathing rate is a big symptom...or could be a cause also. Pay attention to your breathing rate, it is always telling you something. You may be working too hard or your anxiety level is up for some reason.
Being strapped into gear that you can't remove easily without assistance from others can begin to play games with your head. Like firefighters in a smoke maze for instance... Amazingly, the same advice works in a diving "event." Stop, breath, analyze, then act... Has always worked for me.
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