what are the rules for divers in caves in FL and mexico?

ok, we got some very good governmental contacts, and we need to make some proposals now.

we need to find some information, and I think mexico and Florida would be really cool...

some info that we might need or if I could get information in how to obtain it, would be for example,
what are the rules for cavern guided dives?, the guide has to be what? full cave in full gear plus divemaster +? other rules?
cave guide....?? ratio?
for a cavern guided dive, can it be just a cavern instructor not being a full cave diver in full cave gear?
any other?

some statistics: where can we find statistics of how many divers go to peacock and/or ginnie a year?, same in mexico if possible, is there any way to estimate???

is possible to know how many cave divers are already certified lets say in NACD and NSS? and how many certified per year??

is there any limit as divers per day at ginnie or peacock?.

ok, for the moment I think that would be all we need, not sure if phil has something more in mind, if somebody already has that info would be cool if can share it, or if somebody could give us some place to find it is cool as well.

thanx a lot

I don't know about Mexico but there are no laws in Florida concerning this. Whatever rules the landowner wants, that's what the rules are.

well I think NACD and NSS must have some, or some "ideals" at least, but lets say peacock and ginnie that are the main overpopulated caves, what are they taking as "normal"

I know that they are more sensitive caves like alachua, well would be cool to know, how many divers a day are allowed at alachua and how many divers per guide? that would be a cool example because there are some caves that they do not want to open to the public down here and we want to propose guided dives in them to see if they agree to allow diving like that, that would be very cool because right now is "forbidden" except for special cases but a diver that comes cannot go, and they are the coolest caves in fact.

well I think NACD and NSS must have some, or some "ideals" at least, but lets say peacock and ginnie that are the main overpopulated caves, what are they taking as "normal"

I know that they are more sensitive caves like alachua, well would be cool to know, how many divers a day are allowed at alachua and how many divers per guide? that would be a cool example because there are some caves that they do not want to open to the public down here and we want to propose guided dives in them to see if they agree to allow diving like that, that would be very cool because right now is "forbidden" except for special cases but a diver that comes cannot go, and they are the coolest caves in fact.

I would contact Frank Ohidy, he on the NSS-CDS Board of Directors and is responsible for CDS managed properties. You can get his contact info off the CDS site. I helped update the most recent version of the site management plan which includes Alachua, and it is very specific. Frank can give you the details you are looking for.

HI guys,
for what I know it goes as follow:
cavern guide: has to be full cave trained and in full cave gear with doubles and in Active teaching status with one agency (PADI prefered) - no sidemount (so far :) ! ) don't think has to be cavern instructor
max divers/guide: 4:1
cavern limits: same as Florida and all cavern diving in general - minimum of 2000psi to start a cavern dive and 1200 minimum to exit with.

Of course a thorough briefing is mandatory.
As for divers/year, I am not aware of any stats here. Maybe if a LDS owner or longtime staff can answer this.

I remember reading an article from Mr Gerrard stating that since its opening to public, cenote Tajma Ha has received 20 to 30.000 cavern divers. It xould be around 2000/year. It sounds a lot but fairly possible.

Hope this helps and also that I am not off the charts with all this intel! :)

Saludos,

HI guys,
for what I know it goes as follow, here in Mexico:
-cavern guide: has to be full cave trained and in full cave gear with doubles and in Active teaching status with one agency (PADI prefered) - no sidemount (so far :) ! ) --don't think has to be cavern instructor
-max divers/guide: 4:1
-cavern limits: same as Florida and all cavern diving in general - minimum of 2000psi to start a cavern dive and 1200 minimum to exit with.

Of course a thorough briefing is mandatory.
As for divers/year, I am not aware of any stats here. Maybe if a LDS owner or longtime staff can answer this.

I remember reading an article from Mr Gerrard stating that since its opening to public, cenote Tajma Ha has received 20 to 30.000 cavern divers. It would be around 2000/year. It sounds a lot but fairly possible.

Hope this helps and also that I am not off the charts with all this intel! :)

Saludos,

as jason said: in mexico it's full cave diver whit minimum of divemaster.
guide need double tank isolated, long hose, safety reel, 1 primary 2 backup.
client are forbidden to wear glove, snorkel, and knife.
officially guide need to stay whit the approuved permanent guide line (not always respected)
officially guide need to follow a cave guiding orientation course (apsa) but this rule is not apply anymore.

statistic I hear is about 10 000 cavern diver per year...

hope it help, if I can help more just contact me (philip even have my phone number)

cool thanks, I think here it should be like it is in Mexico, hopefully we should be able to establish a cavern safety standard, it is badly needed.

Phil, keep in mind this is not written black on white standards. These are accepted rules. There is no local 'authority' ruling cavern or cave diving for that mater.
As Etienne is saying, the APSA (local association) used to request guides to be cavern divemaster or something like that but has been inactive for a while now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neptuno

ok, we got some very good governmental contacts, and we need to make some proposals now

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Cris, you are concerned with safety, but there are many others who will advocate sensible sounding rules to enrich themselves. First. KEEP YOUR GOVERNMENT OUT OF DIVING. Figure out which shops/guides are ethical and responsible and teach them how to guide these dives safely. They will spend the money to advertise and differentiate themselves from the idiots. Be patient, this doesn't happen overnight. There are still some full 100% idiots guiding people in the Mexican caves.

al

basically we were asked to help come up with a set of safety rules so we are trying to figure out what solution would be best for the caves here.
Geologically the DR is very similar to Mexico but much more of a rough country with way more lawlessness and a general "out of control" kind of feel in law and order , this kind of leads to a free for all in all aspects of life here especially diving with many dive shops really not caring about anything and getting away with it.

I think the govt has taken notice and are starting to understand our concerns with the extremely dangerous untrained "guided" tours going on and does not want an accident to happen, especially since it involves only 3-4 dive shops.

On the other hand the govt really do not want to close the caves either and want to come up with a solution suitable for all, which is really cool and I think might work out really well.
The advantage/disadvantage here compared to Mexico is that in the DR there are way less caves and way less dive shops taking "tours" into caves so it will be easier I think to actually implement safety rules when/if they are in place, the disadvantage is...there are less caves.

Don't you dive on the left side of caves in Mexico instead of the right side like we do in the states?

...Mexico..left side of cave?? noooo, we are travelling bang in the middle..above the line :smt047

Apparently the rules in Mexico have changed. Six years ago, Mexican cavern guides only had to have Intro Cave certification. The guide I went with then seemed safe and knowledgeable. He stayed on the premanent guideline and was very careful not to stray out of the cavern zone.

the mx official standars by mx gov with help of local cave divers, check secctions 5.1.2.1 to 5.1.2.4.7, there are some mistakes about the max penetration in cave 2 and cave 3 zones
http://transparencia.yucatan.gob.mx/...UR-09-1997.pdf
ohhh, is spanish
david

When will those Mexican officials start to use some common sense and write their laws in good ol' English! Like good Americans... Oh, Hmnn... Just forget what I said... my bad...