What makes a good guide?

I was asked today If I could fill in for someone guiding. I was quite flattered that I was even considered. My immediate reaction was that I would suck as a guide and I declined, which lead me to think about what makes a good guide.

I dive a lot so I have lots of diving experience, though maybe not so many different systems. I am a bit of a grumpy git, so probably would lack patience with those less experienced or opinionated.

I think diving experience is about 30% of the package. The rest is divided up in being personable, doing great briefings, delivering decent sandwiches and making sure all the logistics are as transparent as possible and that diving passion comes over and that the client never feels processed in any way.

Any thoughts on what makes a good guide?

Well, I don't know if I am considered a good guide or not but I have done it a couple times. A good guide to me is a dive buddy who can get you access into caves that are restricted or closed. They know the area, know the cave, provide information about the cave and suggestions for a dive plan. I expect the divers to be aware of their own air supply and treat them like adults, I tell them that also. I usually try to get someone else to lead as I feel it gives the divers better views and I can watch them more closely.
I have only had to turn two dives, one on the occasion a diver silted out the lower area of a cave, it was a large group and it would have been too dangerous to continue. It was kind of a unanimous decision anyway as the two closest divers actually grabbed onto me. I put their hands on the line and we all went out without problems. The second was someone who really just wasn't diving well, he kept dragging gear, he was like a yo-yo in the cave. I finally called it, it was a deep cave and he was either narced or just not ready to be there.
So, I try to keep the dive like I am just taking a friend to a new cave, I just obey the rules and try to let everyone have a good time.

I dunno... insurance.

Cindy, you certainly ARE a good guide. I can tell from a number of places you took me to.

Cindy- you are an excellent guide.

"Guests" should buy the guide lunch.

I do a day or two of guided diving on every trip, if I can. What I want from a guide is access -- knowledge of where a good site is and how to get into it. A good briefing and stick map, and suggestions for the most interesting or beautiful lines. A description of any specific technical challenges (and since my guides have been my instructors as well, some tips for how best to negotiate them). And I always ask for feedback on the dive, to see if they saw anything I need to improve.

None of my guides have provided lunch :)

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Originally Posted by Cindy

. I usually try to get someone else to lead as I feel it gives the divers better views .

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I like to do this too. Also,it is their dive,not mine,so I like to explain the options and allow them to construct the dive plan. I feel like I have done a good job if I am a dive buddy of the group,and not a baby sitter.

I believe that a good guide has a lot to do with what the guided are looking to get from the dive. More on that in a minute. Local area knowledge and experience are no brainers. The ability to determine peoples comfort levels and skill without making them feel challenged or that you are questioning their abilities is also important. Staying within in ones own comfort level and abilities is also important. I feel, when guiding, that it is not hand holding yet there is an added level or responsibility to the people being guided.

There are many reasons people look for a guide. Some simply want a solid buddy that knows the systems. Others are looking to push their personal limits and want someone experienced with that type of diving (note it is personal limits not their training). Limited time to dive is common and wanting to use the guide for their knowledge to see "the good stuff". Photography and video is yet another reason. All of the reasons mentioned, along with plenty more, have a different reason for using a guide and will require their own particular approach.

I don't know if I am a good guide or not because most of the people I guide I also call my friends. For a while now I rarely guide people that I don't know. I do feel that it is important to focus on their interests above your own when guiding. If they want to spend their time poking around or hauling a ton of gear in to set up a photo that is what the guide is there for, so they can have the dive they invision. Personal limits and comfort are always number one and yes I have thumbed dives while guiding.

Bobby

I prefer sidemount seeing eye dogs.

http://lmaclean.ca/LisaMacLean/nfblo.../scuba_dog.jpg

I agree whit all of your comment and I will add that the guide should also keep a place in is head for the conservation of the cave. that mean to not bring the wrong diver in the wrong tunnel. I always ask honnestly the level of experience and confort of the people I guide. The first dive whit them, I will always bring them to a place that they will not have a negative impact if something go wrong. That doesn't mean that I bring them to a bad location, it is still amazing dive.

For exemple Alan, Taj is a very good place to start a guiding trip. Very often I let them be the leader on the circuit to city of agraa. You are probably the best guy in the area to guide Taj in term of cave knowleage:smt081

My buddy and I had been diving caves for many years and decided to hire a well-known (actually, world renown) guide for an 11,400 foot penetration in a foreign country. There was nothing extreme about this dive, other than it was long. It's the first and last time I will use a guide, unless local law prevents diving without one and, if it does, I will dive as if he or she is not in the water with me. And before I go on, yes we did our own dive planning before we got in the water, it was just that when you're following the "expert's" lead (the first time) you might be a bite stupidier than you should! Which is the point of this post to you "experts."

We made the mistake of assuming that the long-bodied DPVs the guide was providing - showed us in the shop and brought to the dive site the day of the dive - had actually been recently charged and that the batteries would last for the DVP legs of the trip in and OUT. We assumed that the guide was going slow on the guide's own DPV on purpose, and not needlessly burning our limited gas supplies because it wasn't running like it should. We assumed that the guide - who had done this dive so many times - wouldn't stop to re-run a line (not fix broken line, mind you) on our long pentration, further compromising our gas supplies. We assumed that we wouldn't be swimming out with marginal gas in our tanks and pushing dead DPVs in front of us. We assumed that this guide knew...well you see the picture - the guide ended up being sloppy in every aspect of the dive. Our own instincts kicked in about the time we turned or the dive might have ended differently.

Sorry, but when you hire a guide, especially one you've admired for years, you expect to follow his or her lead (at least the first time). That guide owes it to you to act like a professional and take the extra steps needed to make sure that everything he or she is providing is well planned, well prepared, and that he or she doesn't push the extreme edge on your dive - unless that is what the dive was about in the first place and then everything Im saying here doesn't apply. And if something is not going as it should that guide owes it to you to communicate that with you, rather than remain silent because of a huge image ego.

If you put yourself in the "professional's" role then you owe it to those trusting you to act professionally. Period!

We tend to trust divers we hold in esteem and follow their lead until we find out whether they really know what they are doing, having a bad day, etc. Until you find out that they are not what they say, you run the risk of doing stupid things. As a guide you need to remember that, and not cut corners that will have impacts on those behind you. There is no difference between a guide and an advanced instructor in my mind. You need to remember that those looking to you are in a different role on that particular dive.

I know now that I can not trust anyone, but myself, under water. As a guide you need to remember that not everyone has come to that conclusion when they ask for your help.

Bill, I would be remiss if I didn't ask if you were scootering where you hadn't swum before. (I know, it's not a hard and fast rule, but my instructor would kick my head if he found out I had done it.)

John, I think I have a new project. Except I don't think Ginnie really needs an exposure suit - just the scuba.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

I prefer sidemount seeing eye dogs.

http://lmaclean.ca/LisaMacLean/nfblo.../scuba_dog.jpg

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That's so cool.

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Originally Posted by w ripley

My buddy and I...

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I remember you and Jeff telling me this story in great detail (especially Jeff lol) around the campfire one evening. I also remember thinking it was pretty scary that a top notch guide would be so cavalier about a dive like that. Or maybe it was just piss poor planning on their part, not sure which, maybe a combination of both.

What I expect from a guide:

Access
Logistics
(maybe lunch & :drinkers: )

All other is my responsibility whether or not I am "buddying" with the guide. If the guide takes me to a site and I dive it on my own with my buddy, the guide is not responsible for me. If the guide does dive with me, same story. It's my butt and I'm the only one responsible for it. Period.

When I guided you at JB I didn't provide beer, but there was cake!

Just out of curiosity, was that in Europe, Mexico, or "other"? My diving is in north FL, I've taken folks to see stuff before but I don't "guide". That takes too much time and focus, and I don't feel that I'm "that good".

Mark

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Originally Posted by w ripley

My buddy and I had been diving caves for many years and decided to hire a well-known (actually, world renown) guide for an 11,400 foot penetration in a foreign country. There was nothing extreme about this dive, other than it was long. It's the first and last time I will use a guide, unless local law prevents diving without one and, if it does, I will dive as if he or she is not in the water with me. And before I go on, yes we did our own dive planning before we got in the water, it was just that when you're following the "expert's" lead (the first time) you might be a bite stupidier than you should! Which is the point of this post to you "experts."

We made the mistake of assuming that the long-bodied DPVs the guide was providing - showed us in the shop and brought to the dive site the day of the dive - had actually been recently charged and that the batteries would last for the DVP legs of the trip in and OUT. We assumed that the guide was going slow on the guide's own DPV on purpose, and not needlessly burning our limited gas supplies because it wasn't running like it should. We assumed that the guide - who had done this dive so many times - wouldn't stop to re-run a line (not fix broken line, mind you) on our long pentration, further compromising our gas supplies. We assumed that we wouldn't be swimming out with marginal gas in our tanks and pushing dead DPVs in front of us. We assumed that this guide knew...well you see the picture - the guide ended up being sloppy in every aspect of the dive. Our own instincts kicked in about the time we turned or the dive might have ended differently.

Sorry, but when you hire a guide, especially one you've admired for years, you expect to follow his or her lead (at least the first time). That guide owes it to you to act like a professional and take the extra steps needed to make sure that everything he or she is providing is well planned, well prepared, and that he or she doesn't push the extreme edge on your dive - unless that is what the dive was about in the first place and then everything Im saying here doesn't apply. And if something is not going as it should that guide owes it to you to communicate that with you, rather than remain silent because of a huge image ego.

If you put yourself in the "professional's" role then you owe it to those trusting you to act professionally. Period!

We tend to trust divers we hold in esteem and follow their lead until we find out whether they really know what they are doing, having a bad day, etc. Until you find out that they are not what they say, you run the risk of doing stupid things. As a guide you need to remember that, and not cut corners that will have impacts on those behind you. There is no difference between a guide and an advanced instructor in my mind. You need to remember that those looking to you are in a different role on that particular dive.

I know now that I can not trust anyone, but myself, under water. As a guide you need to remember that not everyone has come to that conclusion when they ask for your help.

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I've guided a guy one time when the regular guide wasn't available. If they are all like that, I'll never do it again. I'm still wondering if the regular guide decided this guy needed to go away and I just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. The free boat ride wasn't worth risking my life.

The few times that I have asked to guide, I have made it clear that I am merely a buddy who has dove that site a few more times then the person asking... as such, I am treated no different and I treat them no different. I may ask that we dive certain sites first, but then again so would any decent dive buddy...

Overall, I haven't had any complaints... then again not many people complain about "cheap" services... (beer and dinner)... ;)

If you look at today’s demand, fewer cave divers are hiring guides to take them diving which is, in some ways, understandable. When you consider the environment we dive in, a guide should be nothing more than a gate-opener or, to put it in another way, a facilitator. I say this, not to (as we say in France) spit in our soup, but we have to be realistic about cave guiding. A guide is really just a glorified buddy.

When my clients ask me what I offer, it is quite simple. Those who are here for, at least one week can have three full days of guiding, where I will introduce them to the Mayan Riviera, show them the rops. This is really a “how” to guiding experience, or cave diving in Mexico 101 guide. Then for the rest of their dive holiday, they can discover the many caves we have to offer, on their own. It’s that simple.

Providing logistics is one of the reasons divers like to hire a guide. This way the headache is someone else’s. However, that is putting a lot of trust into one person, who could be having a bad day and, wham, the trust is broken.

We are lucky to work in Mexico. It is a country where guides are not legally required. So why bother?
Why not take your own diving, into your own hands?

For me, it is important to restore trust into this sport/business. Cave divers are responsible adults and should be treated as such. I think by offering a “part time guiding” service, I can restore that trust. And who knows, gain some great experience in return! Friendship is built on trust, a community must thrive on trust.

I believe guides should posses the same levels of professionalism, responsibility and knowledge as an instructor. Carry liability insurance, have the necessary emergency equipment and training in its use available at all times. I am not saying only an instructor should guide. There are other professional certifications. IANTD Technical Cave Dive Supervisor for example.

conservation conservation conservation

I remember when I went to alachua for the first time it was drilled into my head that if I came anywhere near that first claybank the dive would be over right then and there. features like that are amazing and the guides who go out of their way to keep them that way are awesome.

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Originally Posted by billybones519

I believe guides should posses the same levels of professionalism, responsibility and knowledge as an instructor. Carry liability insurance, have the necessary emergency equipment and training in its use available at all times. I am not saying only an instructor should guide. There are other professional certifications. IANTD Technical Cave Dive Supervisor for example.

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I not so sure it is so much about insurance, cards, emergency equipment, etc., but more about "attitude." Regardless of whether or not the guide is taking someone to a relatively easy spot, an off-the-path/hidden cave, or something really challenging, it's (IMO) all about understanding that for the moment the diver is putting his or her "trust" in the guide's hands. The guide, if he or she accepts the challenge, therefore accepts the "responsibilty" that goes with it (which is what defines a professional in the first place). And to me it doesn't matter whether or not the guide is getting paid.

One more point, and that is that as a professional the guide should not start the dive if it's obvious that the divers aren't really ready for the dive + if they don't have the necessary gear for the dive, and should turn the dive if it becomes apparent that the divers or the conditions so warrant. Just comes with the territory.

Wow, I find this stuff about "trust" to be interesting. I don't think that, outside of class, I've ever done a dive where I needed to "trust" the person who was guiding me, whether it was a friend taking me somewhere I'd never been before, or someone I paid. I suppose I trust them as far as the information they provide me on the surface, about where we are going and what the conditions are there, but once we're in the water, I'm diving just the same as I dive with any other buddy or buddies. I'm responsible for gas management, for being aware of the navigation, and for turning the dive if I'm uncomfortable or am having problems. The only thing I "trust" the guide for is that he is a competent diver at the level where we are diving.

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Originally Posted by LCF

Wow, I find this stuff about "trust" to be interesting. I don't think that, outside of class, I've ever done a dive where I needed to "trust" the person who was guiding me, whether it was a friend taking me somewhere I'd never been before, or someone I paid. I suppose I trust them as far as the information they provide me on the surface, about where we are going and what the conditions are there, but once we're in the water, I'm diving just the same as I dive with any other buddy or buddies. I'm responsible for gas management, for being aware of the navigation, and for turning the dive if I'm uncomfortable or am having problems. The only thing I "trust" the guide for is that he is a competent diver at the level where we are diving.

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I'm with you

Ok, maybe I went over the edge a little with my last post (I see red when we start talking about specialty cards), but the thread is about guiding and my point is that if you do it just remember that everyone is not necessarily as good as you.

I almost always use a guide in Mexico, as he is much more able to get me into cenotes which are somewhat "off the beaten path". Also because after a few problems "negotiating" the entance fees at a few different places ( I don't Habla muy bien), I have found it much easier to have a local assist. As far as the dive, I expect a briefing, a short what to expect on this dive etc. In the water I expect to take care of myself and have a buddy. If I feel uncomfortable I thumb the dive. If he feels I am not up to par I hope he will thumb the dive and tell me about it on the surface.

I recently went to Marianna for an SM class, after I spent 4 days doing guided dives, simply because I had never dove there before, and was able to see some very nice passages I probably would not of found on my own.

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Originally Posted by w ripley

Ok, maybe I went over the edge a little with my last post (I see red when we start talking about specialty cards), but the thread is about guiding and my point is that if you do it just remember that everyone is not necessarily as good as you.

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The example I gave you is NOT a specialty card, it is a professional level certification. Quite a bit is involved, an instructor trainer could give you specific details.

I think it's cavern divemaster you are thinking of, there is no cave suppervisor in the IANTD curriculum - as far as I know - and cavern DM only takes divers in caverns.
Cave divers have to assume their role in the team, therefore you will never find a guide that wears the hat of Mr Responsible for all. Not even the best cave instructor hired as a guide, can take responsabilities for the guided diver.

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Originally Posted by alanf

I was asked today If I could fill in for someone guiding. I was quite flattered that I was even considered. My immediate reaction was that I would suck as a guide and I declined, which lead me to think about what makes a good guide.

I dive a lot so I have lots of diving experience, though maybe not so many different systems. I am a bit of a grumpy git, so probably would lack patience with those less experienced or opinionated.

I think diving experience is about 30% of the package. The rest is divided up in being personable, doing great briefings, delivering decent sandwiches and making sure all the logistics are as transparent as possible and that diving passion comes over and that the client never feels processed in any way.

Any thoughts on what makes a good guide?

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My idea of a "good guide" may evolve over time, since my focus now is more on "training/learning" than on "exploring new systems." So a guide that:

• Knows the cave systems well and can show me what to look for
• Shows me the best OW primary tie off places and routings to the gold line
• Briefs me on gold line placement (ie. drawn on a map)
• Briefs me on cave features and hazards/restrictions, and where to take extra care to conserve them
• Most importantly, someone willing to do the kind of dives I need to do right now (ie. at my training level).

Not to say that a good buddy/mentor couldn't do the above, but trying to get your buddies (most of whom are far more experienced) to step it down to your level enough for you to get the experience you need is a bit challenging.

In the future, that guide might show me popular jumps and established auxiliary lines. Once I become fully trained and sufficiently experienced, then a guide would (as others suggest) provide access to the "classified" caves that require "Top Secret" SAP clearance etc.:-D

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Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95

I think it's cavern divemaster you are thinking of, there is no cave suppervisor in the IANTD curriculum - as far as I know - and cavern DM only takes divers in caverns.

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There is in fact a Technical Dive supervisor rating for cave diving in the IANTD cirriculum. Billybones went thru the program last year.

I am looking at the IANTD standards now and the only supervisor I can see is for technical diver. "in OW and all IANTD programs ... except overhead"
So I would say my bad, there was such a thing but this cert does not apply to overhead as such, the Tec Diver SUpervisor cannot take divers in the overhead.
I can't imagine this being a cave guide-like certification.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95

I am looking at the IANTD standards now and the only supervisor I can see is for technical diver. "in OW and all IANTD programs ... except overhead"
So I would say my bad, there was such a thing but this cert does not apply to overhead as such, the Tec Diver SUpervisor cannot take divers in the overhead.
I can't imagine this being a cave guide-like certification.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers

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Page 104 of the current IANTD S&P's. See my PM also.

Hi Jim,
sorry to be repetitive but in the standards it says that this tech diver supervisor may supervise divers in OW and student in all IANTD programs - except overhead - And in direct supervision of an IT during cave courses or whatnot. (standards 2009)
Maybe in the US the insurance ask to be at least Tec Diver Supervisor but this does not make you a cave guide. It may be a prerequisite to get liability coverage. But its not a "guide certification" as such.
A Tec Diver supervisor is an assistant instructor. An instructor in the making.

And also on IANTD site

Or at least this is how I interprete the standards. But maybe I'm wrong. Will check with my IT tomorrow.

Cheers

Jason

I really think Jason is right.
I 'm using the new IANTD standards and there is nothing about "cave supervisor".
Anyone could be a "cave guide", as anyone could be an "open water guide". A guide is somebody who knows the place enough to show to other people caracteristic points and avoid known risks.

Not to go too far off the line now but most US cave guides are volunteers. I did go through a mentoring program to be a guide at Alachua. I was 'trained' by the chief guide on how to handle emergencies, how to 'read' the divers and cave conservation. I also had to check off with almost all the guides: Bill Main, Lloyd Baily, Jim Taylor, Bob Messersmith, Tom Morris, Woody Jasper, John Moseley, one or two others, it's been a while. I do not carry insurance other than DAN, CPR, and am a Diver Medic. As a mentor or volunteer for a non-profit organization the guides do not charge and are not liable as a paid professional guide would be. Standards and training for guides at places like Alachua, Hart, etc. are set and enforced by the land owners in conjunction with the chief guide. Most guides do this free service to 1. get and keep a cave open for cave diving, 2. get to dive the cave, 3. get to meet people and enjoy the company of new friends, 4. conserve and protect the cave for future divers by use of good dive planning. (Not in any order of priority) Personally I wish all caves not used for training reasons were on a guide system of some kind. If nothing else to provide mentors and introduce people to the cave for the first dive or two. I had mentors or more experienced divers with me during most of my dives before I got into exploration. I feel that there isn't enough of that happening anymore. I would not trade anything for the great experiences I have had guiding people, many from other countries, many who became good friends, not for all the money in the world.