Apparently, many believe that this technique has merit. I'm curious to hear how Instructors teach this. Would also like to hear from students, that practiced this during training, what they were actually taught?
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Apparently, many believe that this technique has merit. I'm curious to hear how Instructors teach this. Would also like to hear from students, that practiced this during training, what they were actually taught?
You breath off the cascade of bubbles, don't suck on the valve. Its very inefficient, and I dunno if it'll ever help you get out of a cave. I'd guess... hell no. If it were my last choice, I'd try it.
it is a last resort technique, have you ever actually tried it? it is pretty much only doable realistically in SM, BM would be extremely hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by diveongas
I am a student and have been practicing this at least once a month or more for either an entire OW ocean dive or in my pool. It really can't hurt to know how to do this, as I have stated before if you know your valves it is really easy and safe to do, why do you seem so outraged at this? any survival skill is worth it no matter how unlikely the emergency might be and this one is very easy so why not?
Well, I'm kinda curious. For example, if you are doing this SM, are you:Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
1. Relasing both tank clips completely, and holding it out in front of you "No-mount" style
2. Releasing only the back clip, then shoving it out "No-mount" style
3. If 1 or 2, do you rig your first stage up, rather than down to facilitate this manuever
4. Relase both tank clips and straddle the cylinder mid body (bottom back/ valve facing forward and up)
5. If slung like a stage, is the cylinder's stage rigging been adjusted such that you rock the tank forward, turning your head to the side to breathe
I wouldn't say that I'm outraged, but I try to avoid techniques with increased risk and use those with less risk. I'd rather swim an extra stage rather than even contemplate doing this. Long ago (decades) I remember a friend taking OW describing breathing from a free flowing regulaor, (PADI) thinking why not just sling a small tank (pony with reg) and not even worry about it.
Was a second thread on this topic really necessary?
I'm lost as to why this topic needs two threads? Does anyone really teach valve breathing as a viable exit strategy? I would like some examples of cave instructors that teach this on a regular basis.
In your other thread you elude to this starting in Mexico. Pretty sure this technique was being used a few decades before cave diving in Mexico. Back in the days of having to do push-ups on the beach wearing doubles to pass a NAUI OW class.
I first learned about it during my NAUI instructor program. Teaching some form of valve breathing is useful for instilling confidence under water. Being able to "slurp" air from water can be a great confidence booster. I am not taking ripping a reg off a tank way back in a cave. More like the student leaning over to get their face underwater in a few feet of OW.
These threads strike me more of you trying to make a point. Not so much of sitting a home with a burning question that can be answered by the general cave diving public. Would you mind getting down to the bee's knees of why you really started two threads about this? What is bothering you??
Cheers!!
Kevin
You don't need to know how to breathe off a valve.
You might need to breathe off a free-flowing regulator (just like you should have been taught in OW1) if you have an issue like a stuck exhaust valve, mouthpiece comes off, or otherwise have a water-intrusion problem into the reg. In that case, manually free-flow it, and suck off the bubbles and it'll deliver less water.
Sorry, my bad. First thread was about potential danger, this one about how this is done, if you're going to do it. I geuss it could have stayed one thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by caverkevin
I'm most curious how practitioners manage the cylinder, to be a viable means to exit a cave. Maybe it would be interesting to others.
cylinders stay exactly as they are, I dive a Razor and I can pull my tanks if needed forward and pull the valves upward, very easy and I can actually swim ok like this.
When I dove the dillo or Nomad same thing, a bit less comfortable than with the Razor but no real problem other than having to twist my neck a bit more to get to the valves, right or left is the same.
Oh and another thing I use thin necklace size bungee, it is more flexible and better IMHO than the thick bungee that comes with the Nomad or Dillo and hooks around valves way better too, and is not about to break anytime soon, unless you plan on walking around out of the water with tanks on, in which case BM is better.
Again, this is just a skill, and an absolute last resort, you would in escalating order: breath of the free flowing reg and feather the valve, next option if previous one is not possible: cut the hose and feather the valve and if for some reason the cut hose solution is not possible then as a last resort then breath of the valve or ...die.
A more plausible scenario would be switching regs underwater for whatever reason and you are out of breath take one from the valve real quick if needed.
I suggest you try it (with valves you know) and then come back and post about your experience, if you dive SM, BM this would be really hard to do but a good skill to know nonetheless, and if anything would increase your chances of survival if such a thing is ever needed (super highly unlikely, but so is a tank oring failure).
I had too much espresso tonight, so here we go....
Breathing a tank valve for a protracted length of time would never be a viable solution to anything. As it generally needs both hands to preform the task. Getting out of a cave, one hand is either going to be following a line or lighting the passage. Not much is left to hold the cylinder close to the mouth and open the valve. Where valve breathing may prove to be a benefit is in the control of the valve knob. As this technique generally requires a high degree of skill to just crack open the valve and not waste gas.
As regs generally don't fail closed, but instead open. Being able to control the valve and debit just enough gas would be a benefit. One could conceivably operate (feather) a stage or SM bottle that is clipped to a harness one handed. Breathing in just enough gas for a full breath, while not wasting gas needed to exit.
To some people the teaching of skills that appear useless, like breathing a free flowing reg or valve breathing, may seem like a waste of time. To the instructor they may yield increased comfort and control in the students underwater abilities. Which is the whole point of training in the first place, to improve your diving skills.
OK, I think my coffee is winding down. Good nite y'all!!
K
My OW class in the 1980's was taught to do this (college class, pool time to kill, it was something more to teach) and while it is not practical in any real sense of the word and was recognized as such, it obviously was not viewed as being very difficult or dangerous. It's only real value (and that was negligible) was as an excercise to task load the student and create a context to practice other skills (removing, gear, etc) and as a confidence builder. Over the years that instructor taught no one got hurt doing it either. But then again the student sample consisted of college students so that implies enough intelligence to get into college and that may or may not differentiate that group from other groups.
For the purpose of answering a question above, we were in back mounted single tank rig - mostly poodle jakcets but a couple wings - and remove the BC/Tank, staddled it and basically swam on top of it while breathing off the tank valve. Straddling the tank would be very easy in SM.
As a cave diver I don't see any practical application, except possibly if you needed to swap a sole remaining functional reg from one tank to another and wanted a breath mid swap.
A fail closed scenario is a very rare event as there are very few things that would cause a reg to fail closed - I have seen it happen only twice in 15 years of doing reg repair and in 25 years of diving, and to be reduced to breathing off a tank valve you'd have to have two such failures on the same dive and also lose the rest of your team.
In both those fail closed cases, the failure the divers experienced (ice in one case, defective lever in the other) were in the second stage, so even then you'd have the option of cutting the hose off at the second stage inlet fitting which would give you more flexibility and options in breathing off the "valve".
For all other free flowing failures, feathering the valve and using the reg normally is a far better option. This would be very easy to do in SM with minimal gas loss and while not easy in back mount, would be easier than trying to breathe off one of the posts on the manifold.
So in effect it is possible, but is so far down the list of things you might need to do as to be very implausible. Again the only possible place it may serve a purpose is if for some reason you need to swap one functional reg from one tank to another and need a breath mid swap. But realistically, if the need exists to do that, you've already screwed up elsewhere (lost the team, AND either blown the gas planning or had a gas failure/loss in one tank or one side of the now isolated doubles ON TOP OF a very rare "fail closed" reg failure) so it really falls in the realm of planning for extreme multiple failures.
It sure as hell does not deserve the bandwidth it is getting.
Once again I am chuckling to myself. . . . very funny!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
I know breathing the valves is something you would only use realistically if you needed to take a quick breath between swapping regs (already unlikely as it is). However I have been practising this along with many other skills on a consistent basis in either my pool or OW.
After practising this skill a lot I can easily do this with one hand and hold the line too, I have done this with a line I laid out in OW a few times and it works, you really would have a fighting chance to get out and that's good enough for me to include breathing off the valves in my survival toolkit, even if it's preparing for a one in a million chance I would ever need to.
The other thing is if I ever needed to swap regs underwater (again highly unlikely, but much more likely though) I would be comfortable if I needed to breath off the valves, and if you lost an oring in the reg you are swapping etc..
I think if breathing off the valves is not interfering in some way (lack of time etc..) with practising other more realistic survival skills then why not include that in your training? it really cannot hurt and if it were ever needed it would be because you would be in such a bad situation already but not dead yet, you would have one last thing to try, breath off the valves.
One thing I notice, not just of myself but of any diver over time, is that with experience everything seems like less of a problem. We used to have the IRAP - a voluntary database of "close calls" and minor non-fatal accidents. They were self rated for significance. For many of the newer divers a light going out seemed like a significant accident (3 out of 5 stars maybe). At the same time I was hearing stories about a couple of sidemounters working separately where one had a regulator failure and was waiting at the meeting point feathering the valve for the other to show up before exiting - thinking nothing of it. I was joking about the guy getting his hand cut off and just wrapping it up in cave line as a tourniquet and still be waiting there.
I go thru dives that have several minor "problems" that are backed up or insignificant and my thoughts go back to the IRAP and how any of these might be in the IRAP as a 2 star incident to some divers but don't even register as anything other than typical annoyance.
Breathing off a valve is silly and probably never realistic needed. To some it seems incredibly insane - while to others it would be just a tool in the basket for use when other things fail or seem inconvenient.
why is knowing not actually realistically having to actually do it but only knowing how to do it silly? it is just another last ditch survival tool nothing more, no one has ever said they would actually choose breathing of the valves, it is a much better option than drowning should the one in a million event actually happen.
I also carry in my pocket a very small flat wrench that fits my regs, in case I would ever need to swap regs and viz was good it would be easier to do by just swapping first stages. Is this overly conservative and preparing for unrealistic situations? maybe but I don't think so especially when I am three hours back in a cave.
Bringing a small wrench is actually an extra piece of gear I will hopefully and most probably never use, but I bring it just in case.
Some may find bringing a wrench useless and just an extra piece of unnecessary gear, and in the wrench case yes you have a point, it is an extra thing.
Breathing off the valves does not entail bringing anything just learning an extra easy skill that really can't hurt.
If someone shows me a skill that could help me get out of a one in a million situation, I would practice that skill, what does that cost? a bit of my time.
I make it a point to do a two tank dive at least once a month in either OW or my pool and go through every skill I have learned so far, I ask my fiancee to tangle me as bad as possible in the line and try and get out of it etc.. the breathing off the valves is just another thing I practice along with everything else and I think it's a good skill to have, at the very least you will realize you actually can breath off the valves and would have a fighting chance, yeah yeah I know it is so remote and a waste of time to learn, so is getting hit by lightning.
As Gary pointed out "breathing of the valves is silly and probably never needed", probably is good enough for me to learn that skill.
I've been meaning to practice this for a long time. Thanks to this thread, I will go do it. Every extra tool in the box helps and I can think of realistic scenarios where this skill could be necessary.
Good stuff!
I have done it first in my OW class, but class was mandatory 4 months with similar to cmas old school standards, it was a lot of fun having that much time to kill, I see it as a good skill at least to do a few times, knowing how to do it won't kill you and you will learn something new, which is enough for me to try it :)
if needed sometime is good to know how to do it efficiently, is just one more skill to practice and fun to do it, same as practice tieoffs, or lost line. Lets say, I practice all the time diving with my eyes closed (by the way navigate with a black mask was another skill on the class) will maybe never need it, but if you practice it every once in a while, if you get in a siltout you will know very quickly how to find the line. you will think practice with no light is no needed since you will never have a 3 light failure right? well we got a 5 lights failure once at ginnie at the henkle one and the others coming out, so 2Hid's and 3 backups.. is not insane?
So.. useful... not sure, good practice for sure it is and if I learn something out of it, it is something good, but.. if you want to practice breath from the hose...I wont recommend cutting your hose off in the practice tho ;)
clases are open
$199 breathing of the valve padi specialty, soon breathing of the valve specialty instructor class
I think it is well worth it, and kind of fun too, I will never actually need to use this (I hope) but the looks I get on dive boats from people is worth it alone.
I put my mouth over the valve and open it slow and breath, you get into a kind of breathing rhythm and obviously waste some gas but not really that much, it takes practice to do it efficiently but it is really easy.
Know your valves, it makes it way easier to do.
and be one with the force ...lol
I had a second stage free flow (o-ring failure on the hose fitting to the reg) on my travel gas on a "deeper" dive - it failed at 170 ft when I went onto my 21/30 bottle. I used the valve to deliver gas to the reg until I got to my next bottle at 60 ft. It was an inconvenience but not a real "problem". No big deal actually.
Only reason I'd see to breath from the valve would be that the reg has failed - leave the reg in place and breath it, use the tank valve to shut down in between breaths to conserve gas and it will be OK.
I have tried this technique in OW and picked it up with little problem. It was more about playing in the water and trying something new than anything else. I dropped a tank and a weight bag with some lead in about ten feet of water and dove down, cradled the tank in my left arm with the weight bag over the valve stem providing proper buoyancy and quickly found the balance of valve tension and rhythm and I was down for about 30 minutes. Like anything done under water, there were some moments of anxiety that required getting calm and working the problem. I like doing stuff like this.
Adjustable wrench is a good thing to keep in a pocket, or Letherman (helps to break apart clutch :-) ). I also have seen adapters for second stages with enlarged knurled grab so you can unscrew it easily with hands (Amigos had them). On a topic subject a few yrs ago was information that it is actually easier just to cut HP hose and suck air from there. Guys did experiment and it works much better than trying to breathe from valve. You may also just bend LP hose at very sharp angle so it restricts air flow. But this is just very hypothetical scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
I totally agree, if I could not feather the valve and breath the reg for some reason, I would cut the LP hose feather the valve and breath the hose, I have tried it a few times not actually cutting the hose but breathing off it without a reg attached and it is way easier than the off valve.
The valve is just an absolute last resort if all else fails, and a much better option than drowning.
This thread got me thinking, so OK some people feel this valve thing is a useless skill not worth practicing, they're point being it is such a remote possibility that it's a waste of time, it is debatable.
What about more realistic scenario safety skills other than the ones in an S drill prior to a dive like line entanglement, cutting the line and making sure you are on the out side , repairing the line, tie knots with no mask on etc.., lost line drills, how many times in the past year have you actually spent time practicing those essential safety drills?
IMHO these should be practiced often and are all remote but likely to happen at some point or another.
If one thinks valve breathing is a waste of time but almost never if at all practices the above mentioned skills either then you are in lala land in my opinion.
well, that makes me wonder really how many actually know how to repair a line... in florida is kinda unusual to repair a line since there is people that does it all the time, so for a normal cavediver cave line last forever and never has to be repaired/replaced because they never see it broken :)
EDIT:
is it possible for users to open a poll in the forum?? how?
I think knowing basic knots and being able to tie them with your eyes closed is an essential skill, it is unlikely you will ever need to cut the line to free yourself or even repair a broken line, but on almost every dive when it comes time to cut the line and tie a knot it is in absolute zero viz, sounds really simple but it is not as easy as it sounds.
I do that a lot in my pool in full gear but also outside sitting around I tie knots with my eyes closed it really makes a big difference, Raquel looks at me funny when I do that.
Every cave diver should know how to tie a few basic solid knots, fast and with they're eyes closed.
ok, go now and do it breathing from the valve lol.....
Something I practiced on my own in my early days. Much easier when BCs and harnesses were separate. Much easier just to control the valve to deal w/freeflowing reg.
I think your time and life would be better spent learning how to swap first stages efficiently than learning to breath off a valve. This practical practice will put you in much more control of your gas than pulling a reg and breathing off the valve. Reality says that the only part that will suffer is the gauge and they cost how much??? Next thread will want to debate the viability of breathing down your wing and how bad the lung infection will be. Both these threads are ridiculous. Why don't we start practicing how to write the farewell note in our Wetnotes too. Just to be on the safe side......
Some of you people really think that someone would actually choose to breath off a valve before actually swapping a reg, breathing of the hose etc.. listen this time! it is only an additional skill, an absolute last resort WHEN ALL OTHER OPTIONS ARE OVER AND DONE an no other options are possible, then and only then would I choose to actually breath off the valve!Quote:
Originally Posted by fno
I practice everything else a lot, the valve thing is a very small part of what I practice.
A more realistic situation is if I ever did need to swap regs (very unlikely) and needed to take a breath (unlikely too I can breath hold for a looong time), but for some reason the swapping took a bit longer than planned and I needed a breath I would not freakout like most people might, who do not know how to breath off a valve, have never done it and now suddenly need to take a breath and the only option is the valve.
Could you take a breath calmly off the valve and continue with the reg swapping or would it become a bit of an issue?
I really do not understand people like yourself who find it a waste of time to learn, we are talking like about 10 mins now and then not hours and hours, at the detriment of practicing other skills..lol.
Which part of "every other available option would come first" or "as an absolute last resort when all else fails, drown or breath off the valves" did you not understand?
I mean how can you actually think I or anyone else would actually choose to breath off a valve instead of swapping a reg, cutting the hose, feathering the valve etc..lol.. are you serious?
Wetnotes should come with a generic farewell note in them already so the diver just has to fill in the blanks. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by fno
I used to have a "generic" resignation letter - fill in the company name, date, supervisor name, your name, and your last day. It had the usual drivel - "I have enjoyed my tenure" and "I wish all of my co-workers continued success in their endeavors". The beauty of it was I had the letter as a 7th generation copy, complete with white-out marks, shadow erasures, and crumple marks. Me and a couple of my buddies actually used it several times....
If first stage swapping is an unlikely but very possible situation worth training for, how can anyone think that practicing breathing off the valves is a waste of time? I have swapped first stages a few times underwater and although easy to do it takes however long it takes, sometimes a bit longer than planned, if you need to take a breath then knowing how to and being very comfortable with breathing off the valves is actually very important.
I can breath hold a very loooong time, I train for that every day for big waves surfing, so I never needed to take a breath when swapping first stages.
In a real situation far back in a cave and needing to swap first stages I imagine I would be at least a bit nervous or even scared so I would maybe need to take a breath but knowing that I can easily breath off the valves and having done it numerous times would be a major help in this situation, yeah yeah I know so remote etc...
Lets say you are swapping first stages underwater and it is taking longer than usual to screw in the DIN thread, even setting up tanks before a dive in the absolute best conditions possible this sometimes happens and it takes a few tries to get the thread to catch, now imagine this happening underwater during a real first stage swapping situation and most probably in bad viz too, now you need to breath and the first stage is still not on, you don't think breathing off the valves is a worthwhile skill to have, I do, take as many breath as needed to get the first stage on.
I mean do you really feel comfortable and know for sure that, when you take that deep breath before swapping first stages that you will actually be able to do the swap without any delay whatsoever, or are you relying pretty much solely on how long you can hold your breath?
Now for those who don't understand let me clarify, I would NOT choose to continue breathing off the valves to get out, I would calmly take a breath from the valve and continue with the first stage swapping.
I feel pretty comfortable that my remaining tank is going to last me to the exit. What? it's going to suddently bust right at thirds and that even if it did somehow I can't make it back using less gas on the way out? That's what 3rds is supposedly designed to take care of. Also that if I bang on the non-working one a few times to get the sand out it will work again also. And feathering the valve... why would I ever have to swap regs or breathe off a valve? If I thought it was that likely I'd bring a spare reg.Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
If I needed to breathe off a bottle I'd do it but I feel to practice it would be even more a waste of time than expaining why I don't bother on the internet.
(I have swapped regs for deco bottles but it isn't like trying to swap off the bottle you are breathing in the cave.)
(However, I actually use 220BAR DIN fitting so if I did need to swap regs it wouldn't take long.)
Not that I have a problem with others practicing it - I'm just not that worried.
A. It isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by phillip1
B. It is.
Here's the best advice you'll get today: buy quality, high-performance regulators and have them serviced regularly by a competent, trained professional.
Know any? :rollguyQuote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
They're out there! Right, DA?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Back in the day, many instructors taught a "broken regulator drill". They would put several tanks in a pool, with a variety of malfunctioning regulators. Some regs would freeflow, some had no mouthpiece, some had no exhaust valves, some had no 2nd stage, and some tanks had no regulator at all.
The idea was for the student to swim from tank to tank (with a buddy that had working gear), getting a breath or two, and on to the next tank. The first time I did this drill was at a YMCA instructors institute. I got all the way to the last tank, which had a double hose reg, but the hoses were off the regulator, only held in place by some cave line. I had first learned on a double hose reg, but never tried one with the hoses off. I put the hoses back on, but couldn't get any air. I punted, and went to my buddy for air.
I learned a couple of good things. One was that you can get air from broken regulators, even get air with no reg at all. Since then, I have managed to breathe off stages with freeflows, holes in the mouthpiece, leaky exhaust valves, etc.
FWIW, I passed the drill only because I went to my buddy, rather than bolt to the surface. That was really the main point of the drill, to see if you would go to your buddy, and not panic.
While it is good to know that if there was no other option, you could breathe off a broken regulator, or even the tank valve; I can tell you from experience that is isn't the ideal way to breathe. I got one hell of a headache valving gas through a freeflowing reg.
I am not sure you could actually get out of a cave breathing off a valve. It was bad enough swimming along with one hand occupied with operating the valve, much less both hands. What would you do if you had a siltout, and needed a hand to follow the line?
I know it is incredibly unlikely, but I like to train for any and all situations, I don't find it a waste of time, plus it's fun too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary
I have always been super anal about cleaning and maintaining my regs, I think that in diving that is the most important thing to never skimp out on.
I add a small piece of my woman's stocking under the mouthpiece before putting it on with the ziptie to help prevent stuff from getting in the reg, it seems to work really well, every time I take the regs apart there is absolutely no sand, debris or anything inside, even after the tree cave dives.
that sounds like a cool exercise:) so, useless or not, you did learned something, and I think that is the point here, that is a good exercise to do with regular divers just telling them go in here and get out there, you are in your own, would be a hell of a lot of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I learned a bit in that way because we had almost no regulators, we had some homemade ones and some that will work sometimes :) was fun tho
Let me guess, Bob Axlerod and Dutch Schultz?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
That all goes out the window when you start pushing restrictions that end up jamming sand/mud all up into the regulators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
This doesn't have to happen. Sealed first stages pretty much eliminate the issue, and second stages can benefit from strategically-placed nylon stocking material.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
If I were to make a dive where I thought a reg would be filled with mud (I don't do this), there would be extra regs already in the plan.
Man, creep me out!
I have always had a piece of my wife's stocking placed under the mouthpiece, it works great, I take apart the diaphragm when I get home every time in case something go it and there is almost never anything inside. I do a lot of really muddy, sand, debris laden caves and this, works really well, I think sump divers all do this to they're regs.
I wonder why it is not more widespread thing? super cheap and easy
Nylons don't keep the fine stuff out and it can rip in the really tight, really coarse stuff ;) It does help though, but its by no means a 100% fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
The only way for it not to happen, is to not dive those types of passages. For you, it won't happen. For others... its very much something that must be taken into consideration.
Agreed, some of the caves we dive here are really super gnarly when it comes to silt outs, mud and debris and stuff, the stockings help but are not fool proof, nothing is fool proof, very reliable maybe.
I have had such bad silt outs that I began to wonder at what point would I stop floating the stuff seemed so thick, more like mud outs as opposed to silt outs.
I think that if you dive those kind of conditions you get much more cautious (at least I do) and train for super unlikely stuff like first stage swapping, valve breathing etc.. if not for anything else than more peace of mind knowing you could do it if you ever really had to.
Way back in a cave in absolute zero viz, in uncharted territory or not, and knowing that now the entire dive out will be in zero or little viz, is very very different than good viz in a well traveled cave with maybe a chance of a short silt out here or there..
In the extreme silt outs I hit the purge on the reg I am not breathing every now and then to make sure it's not clogged up.
I watched a dance performance where the girls outfits had strategically-placed nylon stocking material...Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
And just what business does a preacher have going to one of those types of "performances"? :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by AB8CD
Don't try to tell us you were there preaching to the girls :roll:
Close, Bob Axelrod and Barry KerleyQuote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
Actually I breathe off a tank valve a couple of times a year or more. I used to do it a lot when I had a lot of OW classes, grab just a tank and jump in the pool and swim around.
I still do it in my own pool for giggles or just to show other new divers it can be done.
I probably spend about 10 minutes tops doing it and I have never tried it with a steel tank or a light in my hand. It would not be easy I am sure, but if it came to it I am sure I can make some progress to the exit doing it.
A lot more progress then I could make on my last breath for sure.
It was one of those, "Sheriff Department Ice Capades Shows..." where the ice was made up of puzzle like pieces put together on a gym floor. Let me just say that the talent (which was surprisingly good) didn't just lay in the girls' skating ability. (Wretched man that I am...!)Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Err preach, that's "lie" not "lay" you dirty old man. Sigmund wants a word with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by AB8CD
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:d...theist.jpg&t=1
Yes, yes I am... (both dirty and old) and I must admit that poor grammar skills are part of the overall package (OK... NOW I used the word "package." I am REALLY messed up!)