Buford Spring, hands down in my book. Whats your pick?
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Buford Spring, hands down in my book. Whats your pick?
DittoQuote:
Originally Posted by Herbie
I have never done Buford to compare but I love Paradise Springs. That is my favorite cavern to date.
Probably the Green Banana, but I am not going!
http://www.floridacaves.com/greenbanana.JPG
buford is hard to top. it's really pretty.
Buford is a GREAT place to go right after you win a bet requiring someone to be your tank monkey...BUWUWAHAHAHAHAH!
In my opinion you can't beat Emerald when the viz is crackling (a CAVU day) and the sun is high. Buford was also very nice. Looking forward to comparing them with the Wakulla cavern.
I'm not sc..sc...sc..ccc..aaa..ared of yyy...ou.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Morrison got me into cave diving...
I've never been to Buford, but want to before its raped.
I've been in one cavern that was way better than Morrison, but I'd get killed for specifying what/where it is :P
I must preface this by stating that I've never been to Buford, but for the total experience - ease of entry, visibility, formations, fossils, topside facilities, the whole bit - it's hard to beat Jackson Blue.
Coming out of the cave:
Any cavern that leads to daylight... Especially after a cave-in or 30+ mins of zero vis....
As just a cavern, Buford is a nice sight, especially when you are there with only one other diver and have perfect vis...
Matt, hit me up after the rainy season and we'll take a stroll up there... and hit Gator too...
I've never been to Buford. But my favorite cavern dive is Jug Hole. On a sunny day.
Madison Blue Springs!
You better hurry then.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
I second that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
This is my arm.... twisted :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
I also like squirming through the SM restrictions (beyond the cavern).Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
Oops....not a FL cavern.
The best thing about the cavern at JB is I can go through the restriction at the back of the cavern without getting off the trigger...Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
well, I've only been in a couple but Paradise was very pretty!!
Jackson Blue is my favorite cavern dive. I still see something new every time I teach a cavern course there.
To each, their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
My pick also at this point even with the trouble to get in and out. Want to go there to do some more photos with a nicer camera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbie
....:)
Are they doing something at Buford to make it easier to get to? You guys keep talking about it getting raped. I've never done it because I can't convince myself to play in the swamp.
fred
All this internet discussion causes more people to visit it, as a result, more damage to the cave. FWIW, it is worse when it is on an OW forum. That attracts un-trained "cavern" divers.Quote:
Originally Posted by fghray1
Yep your right Forrest. That is why I don't post trip reports etc...it keeps the pristine places pristine. I recall someone posting something about a particular tunnel,and in 2 weeks there were marks than i could count.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I did the buford walk in flip flops once. it's not so bad :P
In some instances, those marks you see in tunnels "posted" were from shovels and not divers... (you know which tunnel I speak of...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
I hope access doesn't improve to Buford, it being hard to get to is one of the things that's keeping it pristine. Got to be at least a little bit dedicated to do it.
Yeah, last time to Buford, the swamp swallowed me up, at least four times I went to the hip in muck. I told my buddys, "Save your selves, leave me. If I make it back, okay. If not,place a plaque in my memory." BYW I made it back.
Another vote for Buford. It's a beautiful, spacious cavern. Make sure you go with someone who knows how to find it otherwise they may have to send a search party out to find you when you get lost in the woods. It's best to go during the dry season. If you go when it has been raining a lot, the swamp will get you.
Buford
You mean suckage like this?
Attachment 2777
But then you get views like this
Attachment 2778
After Buford... Paradise
Wow. nice cavern! Also am I the only one who finds it funny that in the pic your tanks are almost bigger than you are?Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
I post reports...when conditions are bad... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
Agreed! :clapperQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
Brian
Some of the best caverns in Florida are in the Williston area. The sinks in this area are gorgeous, but for some reason have little flow and almost no cave passage. Railroad Sink has a cavern that descends diagonally eastward through three rooms and the bottom room ends at about 140 ffw. Cherry Sink is one enormous room the ceiling is only a few feet deep, and in places it dries out and has some flowstones. The floor is in the 50 ffw range and the cavern goes back about 100 feet or so. There is/was a complete alligator skeleton on the floor in the back left side of the cavern. Neither of these sinks is easily accessible. They are on private property and require ½ mile walks to get to. These are only a couple examples; Williston is literally pockmarked with many similar sinks. For the cavern certified diver it is a shame that only Blue Grotto and Devils Den are really accessible because the Williston sinks offer a beautiful dives without temptation to continue farther into the cave.
Dive Safe,
Mark
Originally Posted by FW
All this internet discussion causes more people to visit it, as a result, more damage to the cave. FWIW, it is worse when it is on an OW forum. That attracts un-trained "cavern" divers.
Buford Sink is no secret to most cave divers. Its not an easy place to access and most divers experience it for their first time with someone who has been there before. Its has a big entrance and its huge cavern with no real going cave passages so how exactly is it being raped or abused? How did any of us know where to go cavediving if it was'nt for books , intenet sites or word of mouth ? Sheck Exley, from what I have researched, was big on sharing info(locations, maps, knowledge) about caves and cavediving to the general public. Who's above Sheck to to think its a crime to discuss spots openly? The problem is unethical people in cave diving. Some who learn to cave dive for the wrong reasons, instructors who are issuing certs to unqualified divers and egos that "think" they are excellent divers . The NSS-CDS , NACD, TDI, etc.. should implement some sort of system where they have qualified "cave rangers" who when observing cavedivers with bad technique or total lack of cave conservation ethics , do something like follow these divers till they exit or write a description of divers on a slate. When the divers exit the "cave ranger" politely asks for their instructors name or cert card. They politely inform the divers of the observed "offenses" and ask them to improve their skills or be aware of damage they might be causing. The instructor goes on a list. When X number of offending divers are traced to an specific instructor, the agency issuing the instructors cert revokes it. Something like that might keep instructors in check and seriously consider who they certify. I mean when you pay for cave training there is no guarantee you will get certified. The instructor has made the money, there is no refund. If the idea is to protect caves , sharing knowledge or talking about sites is'nt the problem. Bad cave divers is the problem. We should police our own but it all begins with agencies and instructors period. Who's clapping now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Benthic
Its no secret because of the internet. Alot of the first times at this site is because as an OW diver, they were shown where it is...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweller
You'd think with such a huge cavern, it wouldn't get all the contact scarring its apparently getting. Lots of divers going out there don't have the control they need to have to be in that environment. Alot of that is almost certainly due to local dive shops taking OW divers there, without the diving experience and training, to keep off the walls and ceilings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweller
Being told about different sites from people who've dived with you, and knew you weren't going to fork it all up. Not to mention that people often did there own research back then, they didn't expect to have the information handed to them. This is something exceedingly common nowadays, often, divers complain that they're from out of town and there time needs to be used wisely, and therefore off the beaten trail sites need to be handed to them since they don't have time to look for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweller
I wonder if Sheck had seen whats become of alot of the caves, if he'd be so keen to discuss caves and locations openly to non-cavedivers on the internet. The internet wasn't really the place it is now 20 years ago when Sheck was still around. I don't know what he'd do, and you don't either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweller
I agree, but I'd add non-cave divers to that mix...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweller
I bet you won't have the instructors lining up for that :D whether they get there money or not, I doubt they want to be responsible for their students after certification. Then of course, if you took instruction 20 years ago, is the instructor really at fault?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweller
Every group has somebody that wants to be a "DIC".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dweller
Mostly Open water divers due to lack of awareness. Or people like you that dont recognise it as rape and abuse.
is it trashed at all? i don't recall seeing any damage that stood out really
There are threads here and there about damage at Buford, even tampadiving has a report of it...Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
"12/26/2009 cdavis 100 Buford was great as usual. LOTS of water in the swamp. We are freediving and I sure don't envy you guys trying to carry tanks out there. Like the last report, there was a green tinge to the water and it wasn't anywhere near that unearthly clarity that it sometimes gets to. I looked carefully around the 80 ft mark and could find no sign of surface water ingress. Sure hope the green disappears soon. One very obnoxious thing. Some terminally juvenile jackass has been writing on the walls of the sink. I tried to get it off, but seemed to just make things worse. Please, if you know who is responsible for this, get them to STOP! Buford is a an almost mystical place that has been well taken care of by generations of divers, let it stay that way. If logic and guilt don't seem to work, remind them what happens to the car's of ass holes who trash Buford."
bummer :(
i know shops do AOW classes there so this is to be expected.
not sure I'd blame the internet
Interwebs = more traffic = more degradation even with responsible usage & more likely jackassery types will go out there without a care and mess stuff up... :/
Whaa!?!??? They are doing AOW in a cavern? I don't care if it doesn't have a cave if it is a cavern they should not be anywhere near it. Am I mistaken on just what it is, is it an actual cavern or is it a pit with clear water that people just call a cavern?Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
It doesn't seem to be uncommon for OW shops to completely disregard standards, on places they take OW divers on tours as well as where they teach. The last time I was at Paradise, about 5 years ago, there was a dive shop group (5 divers led by a divemaster) down at the sign, 100+ feet down, flopping around and silting out the place. Talking to them afterwards I found that two of them were a father and 12 year old son who had just taken a two day weekend OW course. Their first dives after class, on a shop sponsored and led tour, were to 100+ feet in the overhead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni
Mike
I haven't been to Buford yet; my vote for a beautiful cavern is Jackson Blue. After the first time we dove there, Tracy said, "If I wanted someone to instantly fall in love with underwater caves, I'd bring them here!"
Mike
I am honestly speechless about this. I have been AOW certified for 10 years and have wanted to get my cavern/cave certs for the last eight. For one reason or another I wasn't able to take the classes until now "scheduled for Aug". Reading about this type of stuff really irks me since I have waited so long. It seems that every time I turn around there is a new cert that you need before you can do this dive or use that type of gear. I really think that it is stunts like this that contribute to the need a special c-card for everything mentality that the dive industry has. The dive agencies want to make money and use this as a excuse to protect us from ourselves. The result is that people with the self control to wait and do it right end up having to pay more.Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
Sounds like you're being the "DIC". This member has asked a simple question. "Hows Buford being raped?" Maybe he has not seen what you have seen or have you even been there to see it for yourself ?Quote:
Originally Posted by john
Let me tell you all a little story. Back when Eagles Nest was closed the only people diving Buford were sneak diving and then very limited due to the WMA officers. When Larry Green and a host of others did an awesome job and got Eagles Nest open for qualified divers , Buford was never mentioned. A friend of mine who has been diving that area for a "VERY LONG TIME", invited me to dive at a "special place that most have not seen". I jumped on the opportunity. Well that place was Buford Sink in 02/2004. After diving I was stoked, never had I had an adventure just to get to a spot and what a spot, PRISTINE! I was so charged up I told him I wanted to write a dive report about this dive and swore i would not give away location or name. I posted a report titled "Swamp Cavern"(you can find it on the Old Dive Reports Part IV or search Swamp Cavern).
Well four days later a member called "PHREATICUS" had to post and let everyone know the place was Buford Sink. That started the free for all at Buford, thank you Phreaticus. Till this day I never understood why he did that. You can see his post right after Swamp Cavern and see for yourselves. My friend was upset and though I never mentioned the place by name or location , it led to some other ass doing it. It took awhile for my bro to forgive me and trust me again. I regret writing that report and being any part of leading others there.
Now I agree with SuPrBugman on some of his statements but from what i have read it seems Sheck Exley used all available media to promote cave diving, safety and locations. he wrote books, magazine articles, gave interviews, instructed classes, videos, etc... I believe he saw what was coming and wanted less deaths and more conservation to our growing sport. One of his main dive partners and close friend, Ned DeLoach has had his"Underwater Florida" book in print since 1977 with the last update in 2004. Over 80% (at least) of the caves WE ALL dive are listed in his book. No secrets just , location , descriptions, directions etc.. Anyone who cave dives has this book or at least seen it. Come on we want to think by not discussing caves on this forum we are protecting them? Maybe, but sooner or later they get exposed. The real problem was brought up and that is the agencies and instructors. I don't care when you got certified, some instructor issued you a passport to cave dive. No they cannot be responsible for what divers do after certification but they should be able to judge and discern why a person is seeking to cave dive and if this person has got the skills. How many times do we see people who just got full cave and dive like ****. How did an instructor feel they were qualified? For this they should be held accountable. We need to police our own kind and if we see divers with bad technique or no regard for the caves then we confront(peacefully) and try to help remedy the problem. My own example, I just moved back from Costa Rica after 4.5 years there. Did a lot of OW but no caves. Went to Peacock for the first time a few weeks ago. Felt like a bull in a china shop and called both dives within 600 feet. Luckily my dive partner , Chris, was not upset, felt it was the right call and provided some very good advice. This was my first time diving with this gent and he was nothing but supportive, was'nt upset or angry, just cool. I was not ready and felt like I could cause some scars, my remedy hit the local OW and practice with doubles, running reel, drills etc.. outside of a cave. Well now I feel ready so I will probally go to the kindergarten spot(Ginnie Ballroom) and work some more on skills in the overhead before venturing into any system. My instructors instllled a sense of responsibility during training and made it known what was expected to join this group, to the point of holding me in apprentice stage for five months. I can only thank them today for not giving me the cert but letting me EARN IT. Thank you Jill H., Paul H. and Brian K. While at Cave Excursions in Luraville a few weeks ago I was getting a fill and eavesdropped on a conversation of some instructor who had just certified two guys for cavern/intro cave in ONE DAY because they could not stay two nights and were paying$$$. Thats ****** up. These certified divers proceeded to enter Little River and trash the place after cert. Does anyone have any suggestions and what we should do as a community of cave divers to protect our cave systems? we all belong to one agency or another , they take our money and we get to vote for the BOD. Maybe we should use this collective power and force them to do something about unethical instructors or lose our $$$. My opinion for what its worth, about a buck. lets dive , take care all.
Shops have been doing AOW dives at Eagle's Nest for years, too...in the cavern...Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni
Or, perhaps "less offensive" than EN, places like Blue Grotto and Devil's Den. I was taken to both for my PADI AOW, Nitrox, and one PADI specialty rating course. I believe many OWSI's feel BG is one of the few places with enough "depth" for the "Deep dive" portion of AOW but still in a realtively "controlled" environment. I have also dived Paradise Springs with a buddy (prior to my cavern ticket) but *not* as part of training. I did not, however, go past the Grimmy sign in Paradise (or any of those in Devil's Den for that matter). I think the plaque just past the Grimmy in Paradise is quite sobering....Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
Sounds like you got some issues with the shops in your area. If the are letting AOW dive the Eagles nest solution tube/entry then they are flirting with trouble.
Maybe the fact that I have two great local divers who are mentoring me "thanks deepairmike and Slim!" then have waited so long to get my cert has helped me in the long run. I have read too many stories about how just diving the "opening" led to big trouble.
What is really sad about reading this thread is that someone like me, who doesn't live in Florida, and doesn't know a lot of people there, will never hear about or get to dive a lot of sites I might really enjoy, because I won't know about them. I was well trained, and I take cave conservation seriously . . . Danny Riordan would throttle me if he ever learned that I had damaged a cave through carelessness or misjudgment. I still feel horrible about the marks I made in the floor of Twin when I lost a fin during a class dive.
But the climate in Florida is such that nobody wants to pass along any information, especially publicly, about the location or directions to some of these sites, lest they be damaged. And I empathize -- I have had the good fortune to dive caves in Mexico that were only recently opened, and it's marvelous to dive where there is no damage. But isn't it sad that we can't be open to the entire community about good places to dive? How does this happen?
To be honest, I don't think most of these systems would provide the most pleasure for your buck anyways. If you've not seen all the touristy caves, walking 1000ft up a slough, going to checkout sites that flood 90% of the year, or paddling 1+ miles up river really wouldn't be something I'd want to spend my vacation doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
That being said, I've really not had any issues with people not sharing information in FL, when asked off the forums.
I second railroad sink its a really pretty dive and easier to get to than buford. Buford is a close 2nd
Richard
Not "my" area. EN is down in the Tampa area. It's the recreational shops and instructors that are going there. Then there's the other extreme. There's a spring basin in the panhandle where 52' is the deepest you can get in OW. Instructors regularly do the AOW deep dive there and justify it because the water temperature is below 70 so according to the table, you must add 10' for the cold water temperature! I take my OW students to 55-60' and they are issuing AOW after taking their students to 50'!! I wonder what they are going to do now that the largest recreational agency has eliminated tables from their standards. Now they have to go by the computers and can't add 10'...Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni
Lynne, how to you find out about the Mexico caves? I haven't seen an online source for Mexico caves either. You get a guide, right? You can do the same in Florida. I will guide divers throughout my area. Yes, we will go to one of the more common caves the first time so I can assess their skill level. As long as I feel comfortable with it we'll head off to one of the caves I'm not willing to post about online. Of course, I do make them wear my taped up mask during the ride there... ;)
No, actually, I've learned almost everything I know about the caves in MX from my friends who dive there. Or, if we have questions, we'll ask at the shop and they'll draw us maps. I do one day of guided diving almost every trip, but that's for two reasons: the guides can get you into systems that are closed to the public, and I get feedback from them on my technique that helps me improve. But 90% of my Mexican cave diving has been getting some directions from somebody and going there and trying it out. (The results are sometimes comical.)
The same is possible in Florida.
I used to get worked up about those damn cave hiders. After having a few very negative experiances with cave piraits and bone smugglers I have learned to keep my mouth shut. Now I am uber cave hider.:smt102Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
To a lot of people, that's half of the adventure. I know I love stuff like that, things seem to be more beautiful when you have to work for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Uber cave hider? You're uber hider! I hardly even see you around anymore!Quote:
Originally Posted by RAL
There's a metric buttload of information available on cave online, do some homework.
I have zero sympathy for anyone who needs there hands to be held to find information. There's no excuse and the internet isn't local to florida.
Agreed :)Quote:
Originally Posted by murfef
You non Florida people have a huge unfair advantage on us however. You guys take 1-2 weeks vacation off a year of solid cave diving. We have to dive only in between weekends and work. :(
Jackson blue Is my favorite. O wait thats pretty much the only real cavern iv been in. Never mind my credibility is shot.
Slap Tail......>behind Cathy's......better ask her for permission first ! look for a beaver's nest !
je
Try hauling them through the swamp!!!!! Those are LP95'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Omni
Last I was there someone had written in the stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
The internet informs people of where the site is.
Reports like "It was AWESOME!!!!" make people want to go there.
Some of those people that go there might:
1. Not have the skills to not damage the area.
2. Be a jackass and think it is cool to write on the walls.
I can forgive #1, #2 is unacceptable.
*Technically* it becomes a cave. It is ~150 feet deep (154 max I think), you lose sight of the opening, it has a swim through that is overhead inside the normal overhead, the bottom is nasty silty and easy to stir up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni
Not really what I would consider a good training site.
That is ****** up. Training standards were violated. Did you report the instructor to his/her certifying agency?Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbie
Can you please give me a conversion factor for a metric buttload to imperial buttload? Get with it, we have not adopted the metric system in this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn