I have some questions for the line committee. Could some one steer me to someone on the committee.
Thanks,
Rob,
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I have some questions for the line committee. Could some one steer me to someone on the committee.
Thanks,
Rob,
I left a cookie at the end of the Bone Room Tunnel in hopes of completing a circuit next time I was at Ginnie. The cookie was left 3 weeks ago. Yesterday we attempted to complete our circuit only to find my cookie missing.
I am assuming my cookie was removed as part of normal line maintenance. What are the policies on how long markers can be left on the line?
Thanks,
Rob,
Hope you find the answer to your question,but I doubt there is a formal policy. More likely you had a Ginnie regular who saw it there for a couple weeks,and removed it.
I would agree with Kelly.
--WARNING-- --PERSONAL OPINION--. :) I would expect that a cookie left in any cave should be left there undisturbed for a week. At three weeks I would not rely on it to be there, unless you left some sort of expiration date.
The Bone Room is a common place to see cookies, and is fairly heavily traveled.
Mark Vlahos
Could also be a possibility that the marker got knocked off the line during those three weeks. Bone Room is one of those places with higher traffic and training dives taking place.
If you look around the ceiling of the cave you will find plastic arrows and markers floating at the ceiling. Along with glo-stick tubes and other plastic bits. I found a red arrow while poking around the cave the other day. Who knows how it got there.
Cheers!!
Kevin
Rookie question: Do cookies and arrows that are put on properly really fall off that easily? I could imagine that if you did the one-handed attachment method and were still not real great at it that it could possibly not seat into the "grooves." But if it's attached correctly how does it get knocked off?Quote:
Originally Posted by caverkevin
Thanks,
Chris
No, but cookies/arrows/clothespins that languish will disappear.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmalinowski
The majority of lost arrows are probably not ones left on a line, but ones that fall off the surgical tubing or whatnot that a diver stores them on. I once found two arrows from the same diver floating above Hill400, and I seriously doubt he put two arrows on the line that both floated off, and also didn't notice them floating on the ceiling.
3 weeks is a long time to leave a marker in a high volume cave like Ginnie, and the Bone Room is such a short circuit, I'm surprised you needed a cookie. It's pretty easy to use a feature of the cave as a cookie, in this case, the Mapleleaf. Much more reliable than a piece of movable, breakable, losable plastic on a movable, breakable, replaceable piece of rope.
JahJah - They really need to consult you before writing the next editions of the training manuals. We are pretty lucky that all the wisdom you have accumulated from all of your years of diving makes it from your brain to the keyboard.
Just think how unlucky all you poor saps would be, if you didn't have me here to tell you that sometimes, knowing the cave is more important than relying on a piece of plastic to save your life.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJ
The beautiful thing about a sport that requires thought is, you don't HAVE to suck at it.
Caves would look like some sort of convoluted pacman game if its assumed everyone would come back for cookies that sit for weeks...
Stick a date on them or plan to set that junk back up.
I am new and diving at an apprentice level. I am supposed to stick to simple navagation. As I gain more and more experience my definition of simple is changing. Anyway this would have been my 1st circuit so I was playing it safe. When I came to the 4th jump on main and saw the maple leaf I was pretty sure this was the right place, but not sure enough to risk my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior
3 weeks is a long time, but I ended up not being able to make it back as soon as I hoped. I have about a 4 hour commute one way.
I, for one, will never give you any grief for playing it safe. I was in the exact same position with another more advanced cave diver and refused to to the same circuit as a visual jump. I made her do a set up dive so that I could place MY marker. Then we did the jump when we returned for the second dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaRob
I think that you made the right decision, for the right reasons.
You might want to read the thread about the last Ginnie death. It will reassure you that you're doing the right thing. Ginnie was those guy's home cave and they STILL got turned around by not marking their navigation. I bet they "learned the cave", too, and that's why visual jumps and unverified circuits were OK for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaRob
I've heard the whole "learn the cave" stuff, but I personally won't be trusting my life to it. One of the smartest divers I know nearly "bit it" doing an unproven circuit in double lines. Personally I've seen every BM passage in the first 3000ft of Ginnie and never had that happen to me because I mark everything.
Dude, you did what you were supposed to do. No issues at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaRob
Its just with that amount of time... you need to verify the cookie is still there. Don't rely on it being there... Too many cookies just get left behind, if people didn't clean them up, there'd be retartded lines of cookies at every 'T', area of circuit, and personal 'best' penetration(which is dumb).Quote:
Originally Posted by ScubaRob
Just to be clear, I was not and do not advocate doing an unverified circuit, or visual jumps. As jj1987 points out, knowing the cave is no substitute for an unverified or unmarked jump. However, knowing the cave can be very valuable, and in some cases, more valuable than a cookie.
To do the Bone Room circuit, in the safest possible way, without relying on a piece of plastic to save your life, and without doing an unverified circuit or a visual jump is simple.
Dive 1: Do your dive on goldline only. Dive to the Mapleleaf, then attach a jump reel and swim around that room, assuming you have gas left. Go ahead and connect the jump if you have gas, and swim down the Bone Room line until you have to turn. Pull your jump. On exit, take a minute to make sure you know where the jump is behind the Parkbench. You could alternately do this on the way in, either side works, as you are only taking a second to swim around the far side of the parkbench to see where the line is.
Dive 2: Dive to the parkbench, and jump onto the Bone Room line. Swim up the line. If you reach the jump back to the goldline, at the Mapleleaf, within thirds, then you should have plenty of gas to complete the circuit, as your exit on goldline is shorter than an exit on the Bone Room line, and should be higher flow.
Navigating a circuit with the aid of a cookie is great, and should leave you perfectly safe. However, I do not believe that a diver should become overly reliant on a piece of plastic. Always remember, plastic can be wrong, it can be lost, it can be moved, etc. Don't be a line follower, be a cave diver. When placing cookies to help you navigate a circuit, take a few minutes to mentally remember the section of cave where you left the cookie. Worst case scenario, what if some evil cave diver moved your cookie so it was several hundred feet closer to the other side of the circuit, and you just barely reached the cookie on thirds. If you didn't realize the cookie had been moved, you might be screwed if the crap hits the fan on your exit. Is this possible? Certainly. Likely? Probably not, but why risk your life just because you weren't willing to take a second to review the cave, and navigate based on the cave?
Let me put it to you this way: Do you use a GPS? Has it ever been wrong? Now, if you know the area you are driving, why rely solely on a GPS? Use navigational aids as tools, but don't discount the importance of knowing a cave.
Once again, PLEASE, mark your navigation. But, don't rely on it excessively, use the geography of the cave to your advantage, and you will be a safer diver.
On a related note, NACD Apprentice says single jumps and gaps permitted, but "no circuits or traverses are permitted unless the diver is under the direct supervision of a Full Cave instructor." Also on a related note, if you are relying on a cookie, put a "do not pull before _____" note on it, and verify that the cookie is still in the system before your dive.
I was planning on coming back sooner, but ended up going to Peacock instead. Anyway I wasn't expecting anyone to remove my cookie. Sounds like in the future I should leave an expiration date on the cookie. I left another on the expressway for another potential circuit. I am guessing it may not be there either.
I know what JahJah means about learning the cave. I am in the process of covering everything south of the main line.
Plan to explore Hill 400 area next.
Rob, that section of cave is used extensively for classes. I wouldn't trust anything to stay there long at all, not even for a day. Expiration marks might help, but I'm not convinced that the majority of cave divers are smart enough to read.
Talking to jj, he has some good points about cookies, if placed properly, ensuring that one doesn't jump onto the wrong line. To that extent, if you aren't fully aware of the cave, cookies gain incredible value. I did not mean to suggest that you should discontinue the use of cookies. In any case, if you are at all uncomfortable about a dive, you should turn it. If you think you jumped onto the wrong line, turn it. Nothing in the cave worth risking your live over, so you totally did the right thing, and I'm sorry if that point didn't come through more strongly in my posts.
If I'm ever up there and you need a dive buddy, I'd be glad to help you do a circuit or just explore. Especially in the front half of the cave, it is good to do short circuits like that in one day, so you can be more sure that your cookies aren't moved. I remember my first Bone Room and Hill400 circuits, and Expressway circuits (easier to get turned around in the Expressway tunnels, especially since the Berman map has them drawn a little odd), and those were some of my favourite dives for a while!
Since JahJah brought it up, here's my issue from chatting with him on relying for cave features to navigate the cave.
Fact #1- Not everything is on the map.
Fact #2- I've noticed new things in Ginnie even though I've easily dove there over 50-60 times. Most others have, too. Relying on memory to exit the cave is a good way to end up dead, just IMO. It's a great verification, but I really do question how good this would be in a panic situation.
Let's say you saw the maple leaf as a half way point and the next time you came back there someone had a line off to the far side that you didn't notice. With no cookie to pickup on the return home, you really don't know that you didn't jump over to the wrong line. Sure, in this case there's not anything to throw you off, but even if you know the cave well, there could be a passage you forgot or haven't seen yet. If you get beyond 1/3rds and don't have a cookie to reference that you're on the correct line, you could swim swim swim to your own death thinking you're on a line you're not. By the time you figure out your mistake, it's very possible that you've swam too far with the flow to turn around and fix it.
I'm over 40 and a woman. I NEVER trust my memory. :roll: I walk into a room and forget in seconds why I went there. Cookie it and be done with it. But I try to get back the next day, if I don't I figure my cookie is now in someone else's collection.
There's a sniglet for that. (Remember sniglets, on HBO's NNTN? It's a word for a situation where there isn't a word, but should be.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
It's "destinesia."
I like it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
As I passed 50 I became more concerned about the hereafter.
I walk out to my workshop, then look around and say to myself, "What am I here after?"
Mike
Yes Sludge, I remeber NoNesarsarlyTheNews and their sniglets.