Cave and Cavern Directory

I have made some recent changes in structure to the Cave & Cavern Directory. I have had flags allowing a user to filter the directory based on country (US, Mexico, The Bahamas, etc) but I never really liked the implementation (not sure I do now either).

Now, the flags are across the top middle of the page and are also available on the system pages as well. Simply click the flag of the country you would like to see. Please let me know if this is even helpful.

Currently, there are over 600 cave systems listed. Just today, I added 8 for Portugal.

I appreciate everyone adding condition reports as this is what really makes the site meaningful to me and others as well.

As always, please let me know if there is a feature you are interested in and not available on the site.

Walter, I always liked your site and the flags will be helpful. Makes an easy visual sorting system. I'd just like to say I have dived all of these caves, it's something to dream about.

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Originally Posted by metaldector

Walter, I always liked your site and the flags will be helpful. Makes an easy visual sorting system. I'd just like to say I have dived all of these caves, it's something to dream about.

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Many thanks...I have been focusing (lightly) on adding information for other countries recently. I should have a fair amount of numbers, maps, etc. up this weekend.

Did you ever get those other pictures I sent you awhile back?

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Did you ever get those other pictures I sent you awhile back?

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I did...I was looking at them today and reminded myself to put them up. I will today.

LOL, aight :) I know I'm a PITA.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

I have made some recent changes in structure to the Cave & Cavern Directory. I have had flags allowing a user to filter the directory based on country (US, Mexico, The Bahamas, etc) but I never really liked the implementation (not sure I do now either).

Now, the flags are across the top middle of the page and are also available on the system pages as well. Simply click the flag of the country you would like to see. Please let me know if this is even helpful.

Currently, there are over 600 cave systems listed. Just today, I added 8 for Portugal.

I appreciate everyone adding condition reports as this is what really makes the site meaningful to me and others as well.

As always, please let me know if there is a feature you are interested in and not available on the site.

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Walter - I also appreciate the site. As an Intro student, I'm in need of a lot of info on caves, and the maps, videos and other resources on your site are worth much in re: my education.

To that end, and realizing this is is most likely a "Herculean" if not an "Impossible" task, can you ever foresee the possibility of there being a "rating" system for caverns/caves, similar to the "diamond" system for Ski slopes? The objective would be to provide advice to either a student or new cave diver at whatever level as to the difficulty factor(s) for a particular cavern/cave and whether or not it is "recommended" for their level of training/experience.

So far, throughout the training process, I've gained a lot of information about all the major caves etc. that are not safe for me to dive and require advanced training and skills etc.., but not so much about what caves are safe to dive at a given training level (hopefully, Intro for me shortly). I look at all the caves on your site, but have no idea if any in particular would be safe for me as a potential Intro diver, except where there's a comment as to difficulty or a specific "access policy" (eg. Wayne's World, etc.)..... or, perhaps by nature of their depth, flow, or geological attributes (tunnels, restrictions etc.) seem too dangerous to me, intuitively.

Maybe something like (and assuming all dives are conducted within the established limits of the given training level):

1 - Safe for Cavern Divers.
2 - Requires at least "Intro" level (and, optionally X dives after Intro level cert.).
3 - Requires at least "Apprentice" level (and, optionally X dives after Apprentice level cert.).
4 - Requires at least "Full Cave" level.
5 - Requires Full Cave with at least X number of dives minimum.
6 - Requires Full Cave, Trimix, DPV and/or other advanced training.
7 - Specific Policy in effect - see details.

I know... I know.... :-D The permutations to consider are mind boggling as is, perhaps, the ability for the community to arrive at a "consensus" rating for each site.... But this kind of info on your website would be very valuable to someone like myself that wants to dive the right places at the right times / training levels....

If I only knew what those places were......

Just a thought.... :)

Thanks much.

Best thing to do is ask on specific sites I'd imagine... nobody has been to all of them.

Some of those places can be tame at times, and pretty friggin scary at others. Some are just scary all the time. If you need someone to tell you your own limits, you might want to steer clear from them all together? Its not like a ski slope where you have to get to the bottom of the mountain after your start... If you find a restriction, depths, bad visibility, that will put you over your own personal limits of being able to dive it safely for you and the cave, turn around. I guess an extreme siphon(read as Spring Creek or similar) might be pretty much the same as going down a mountain... but you really never make it to the 'bottom' :)

I think he might mean something along the lines of planning a trip. Of course once you're there you could make a decision but that could be at the cost of a lot of money/time off etc. for a lot of us. If I knew ahead of time that it was considered by most to be above my skill level, I wouldn't plan a trip there. It probably would be difficult to get a general concensus put together though. It seems like it would be a good idea if it was possible to create.

The rating idea is kind of a neat concept, but why not just ask some people on this forum or look up some trip reports before planning a long journey to cave country?

Of course, YMMV, like SuPrBuGmAn said, some systems, nay, almost all systems can vary greatly (flooding, water levels, line condition) or be radically different depending on where you plan your dive to.

I would also like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to DeepSea for hosting this site. It has come in handy many times for trip planning or researching a cave that I may be interested in diving for the first time. Of course, this is only step one in the process. Talking to other cave divers is key.

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Originally Posted by flyczek

The rating idea is kind of a neat concept, but why not just ask some people on this forum or look up some trip reports before planning a long journey to cave country?

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I guess it's just the "IT Systems Professional" in me. :-D It would be nice to have the information collected, stored and presentable in an organized fashion, rather than everyone just pestering everyone else on here for each and every cave, each and every time. It seemed that Walter's site was perfect for that storage/presentation effort.

He already has check box columns for "OW," "Cavern," and "Cave" for each listing. Perhaps, if there were one additional column for "Intro," it would help a lot. A site checked as "Intro" would be one that an "Intro" diver could dive with relative ease (ie. those with easily navigable main lines (ie. without complex T's), few if any obstructions / restrictions, low silt potential, and very little in fragile formations (requiring expert buoyancy/trim skills), unlike Mexico caves which are terribly fragile). Ginnie and Peacock, for example. Anything of greater difficulty would be "full cave" or beyond.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

nobody has been to all of them.

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Agreed. But every little bit helps, and having a rating for the popular ones would be very helpful.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Some of those places can be tame at times, and pretty friggin scary at others. Some are just scary all the time. If you need someone to tell you your own limits, you might want to steer clear from them all together?

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It's not that I need someone to tell me my limits. I'm pretty comfortable with them at present, and have no trouble at all thumbing a dive which exceeds them. But in order to know which caves might meet or exceed my limits, it would be helpful to know what other, more experienced divers thought of them as well. Walter's site helps a lot with the check boxes for "OW/Cavern/Cave," as do the maps and other resources and the reports. I guess, as stated above, it would be helpful to break out that "Cave" column into a separate "Intro" choice, in order to know which caves are "Intro diver" friendly. :)

BTW, I've been meaning to ask, if I may, is it "Super 'Bug' Man" or "Super 'Boogey' Man"? :-D

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Originally Posted by murfef

I think he might mean something along the lines of planning a trip.

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Not a "specific" trip per se, but planning "in general." And "knowledge" in general. Knowing all that I can about a cave before ever attempting to dive it. And the knowledge/opinion of others who have done it already can be very valuable.

BTW, have you done the "gas chamber" yet? The Crucible draws near! :-D

Thanks for the information Walter. I heard someone referring to the flags the other day. I was wondering how to find out about some Mexican I caves I plan to dive in July.

Great job with the site. It and this site are my main sources for recent conditions.

Rob,

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Originally Posted by mag3

BTW, have you done the "gas chamber" yet? The Crucible draws near! :-D

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Oh yeah, gas chamber was on Training Day 24, we are on Training Day 53 today. This coming week is "admin week" and the next is final PFT, final drill and then off to the Crucible at about 0200 Thursday morning the 24th and then grad the next friday the 2nd!!! Can't wait.

I would like it if more folks could upload resources, likes links to video's of systems in youtube or pictures they've taken.

I have thought about the rating system but have no idea how to pull it off -- too many opinions (mine included). I guess that is why I am pretty liberal with what goes in the condition reports. Ginnie could go from Cavern/Intro to pretty hairy pretty quick. Honestly, I think it is a personal thing to think about.

With respect to videos, as I find them on YouTube I generally add them under the resources tab for each system. This stuff gets updated to the Twitter (www.twitter.com/CaveConditions) page (vs. having a change log).

I have really enjoyed seeing some of the international sites getting updated.

So, rating system and upload pictures and video...I wonder how much moderation that would entail.

So what do you guys see on the system page that isn't needed (weather, nearby caves, safety officers, etc)?

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

I have thought about the rating system but have no idea how to pull it off -- too many opinions (mine included). I guess that is why I am pretty liberal with what goes in the condition reports. Ginnie could go from Cavern/Intro to pretty hairy pretty quick. Honestly, I think it is a personal thing to think about.

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Walter, I appreciate your even considering it. My objective when thinking about it was as previously stated - a resource where a student or fairly new cave diver can go when seeking information about a particular cave to consider diving. If it helps, it could be as easy as taking the "Cave" check box you already have, and splitting it into two.... "Intro" and "Cave". An entry checked with "Intro" would be safe for new/inexperienced Intro divers under optimal conditions (eg. well defined main line, no complicated navigations, Ts, etc., and minimal restrictions, low silt, not a lot of fragile geologic formations). With the understanding, of course, that as conditions change, the site might require more experience, and maybe a higher cert rating. Something checked as "Cave" only, would then always require "Full cave" cert. at a minimum.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

With respect to videos, as I find them on YouTube I generally add them under the resources tab for each system. This stuff gets updated to the Twitter (www.twitter.com/CaveConditions) page (vs. having a change log).

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You might also consider the Vimeo site for these, as I think some of the best videos (from Paco, Becky etc.) are uploaded there.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

So, rating system and upload pictures and video...I wonder how much moderation that would entail.

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No more that what you're currently doing with the three current check boxes, no?

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

So what do you guys see on the system page that isn't needed (weather, nearby caves, safety officers, etc)?

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That all looks good. The more information, the better.

Walter
You have a great site. Easy to read and packed with info.

If it doesn't have drive up access, a park, and benches around it... you can pretty much bet that by just being IN the system, things are going to get a bit nasty. Without traffic, most caves get dirty(its only natural).

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Originally Posted by mag3

BTW, I've been meaning to ask, if I may, is it "Super 'Bug' Man" or "Super 'Boogey' Man"? :-D

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Bug, its a Volkswagen thing :)

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Bug, its a Volkswagen thing

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If he'd read the "Where'd you get your screen name?" thread he'd have already known that.

First, I'm not a huge fan of rating caves intro, full, abe davis, dpv, etc. I've seen people get their abe davis by doing intro dives with buddies with a few full cave dives here and there, or doing it all in one system, so I really don't put much into that sticker on the card. Since most sites in Walter's page don't have a gate keeper, you really do need to use your judgment. Some of us have scootered 5kft into a big cave, but you couldn't pay us to go 100ft into a no mount cave...that's just my own comfort level, and I don't hesitate to let anyone I dive with know it.

I would suggest that some of the sites on Walter's site are best reserved for talking to people familiar with the system about them, or perhaps going with someone who's dove them. Walter gives you HUGE hints, just put in a bit of work and find details.

Some caves are listed near 300ft deep because they are in some sections, but lots of passage is at 100ft. Some caves are marked closed, but there's ways to (legally) gain access. Most of these sites can't handle traffic, either the land owners would get annoyed, or the cave is too soft. I think posting teasers online to motivate people to get out of a state park and see different things is good, but perhaps turning pristine sites into the next Ginnie is something we don't need to be doing.

There's plenty of people willing to share information, it's just a matter of meeting mutual friends and asking for information. Lots of old timers will share more in person than online anyways, and the history of the sport you learn along the way is an added bonus!

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

If it doesn't have drive up access, a park, and benches around it... you can pretty much bet that by just being IN the system, things are going to get a bit nasty. Without traffic, most caves get dirty(its only natural).



Bug, its a Volkswagen thing :)

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Thanks.. :) If you did a lot of NE Wreck diving, it could also have been "Lobster" man as well :-D

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Originally Posted by jj1987

First, I'm not a huge fan of rating caves intro, full, abe davis, dpv, etc. I've seen people get their abe davis by doing intro dives with buddies with a few full cave dives here and there, or doing it all in one system, so I really don't put much into that sticker on the card. Since most sites in Walter's page don't have a gate keeper, you really do need to use your judgment. Some of us have scootered 5kft into a big cave, but you couldn't pay us to go 100ft into a no mount cave...that's just my own comfort level, and I don't hesitate to let anyone I dive with know it.

I would suggest that some of the sites on Walter's site are best reserved for talking to people familiar with the system about them, or perhaps going with someone who's dove them. Walter gives you HUGE hints, just put in a bit of work and find details.

.....

There's plenty of people willing to share information, it's just a matter of meeting mutual friends and asking for information. Lots of old timers will share more in person than online anyways, and the history of the sport you learn along the way is an added bonus!

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I appreciate that this approach has worked well for many if not most people. I also appreciate that the nature of this knowledge is such that the community in general prefers it be passed on by "mentoring/apprenticeship" relationships. I guess it's just a couple of frustrations... First, as an IT Systems professional, my brain believes in having info collected, stored and shared in an organized, structured "data warehouse" sort of thing. It's what I do for a living. :-D And it could be done so easily on Walter's site. Second, the above approach of "meeting mutual friends/mentoring relationships" etc. works best if you are located in or near cave country, where the "human data warehouse" exists, and where, unfortunately, I do not. :( At present, I can only get down there at most once a quarter. I would love to relocate there, but family ties as well as better business opportunities force me to stay in my present location.

OK, tell ya what..... I had not planned to disclose this, but your next shot at me :-D will be the 2nd week after the 4th of July... I will be in Cave Country from 07/11 - 07/17.... 3 of those days (07/13 - 07/15) I will be "otherwise occupied," but I'd like to see if I can find someone willing to take an extended weekend and do some cavern practice up at P1 on Monday 07/12. Laying primary reels in particular (one of the significant things I can't simulate well up here). Maybe some Lost Line/Buddy drills. Sort of a "Dial in" day for me. There may also be an opportunity to dive again on Fri. 07/16 if interested. Please PM with contact details.

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Originally Posted by DeepSea

I have thought about the rating system but have no idea how to pull it off -- too many opinions (mine included). I guess that is why I am pretty liberal with what goes in the condition reports. Ginnie could go from Cavern/Intro to pretty hairy pretty quick. Honestly, I think it is a personal thing to think about.

With respect to videos, as I find them on YouTube I generally add them under the resources tab for each system. This stuff gets updated to the Twitter (www.twitter.com/CaveConditions) page (vs. having a change log).

I have really enjoyed seeing some of the international sites getting updated.

So, rating system and upload pictures and video...I wonder how much moderation that would entail.

So what do you guys see on the system page that isn't needed (weather, nearby caves, safety officers, etc)?

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Walter - One other thing I thought of as I was looking through the site yesterday.... For the USA listings, you have the county in which the site is located, but not the "State" in which it's located. You might want to add "State" as a column (2 ltr. abbreviation should suffice) so we can get sites from other states listed. At present, there seem only to be Florida cave sites listed for USA that I can see, but since you're already adding sites from other countries.....

Just a thought... :)

Thanks Again.