Buddy vs solo

I was thinking about this today, is the buddy concept really that much safer?
I may be wrong but it appears to me that in all accidents were a team of one or more were involved the fact that there was a buddy or buddies made no difference in the outcome.

I think that any diver who is comfortable diving solo would have far more experience than divers who would not dive solo and thus be better prepared to deal with trouble on they're own, rather than rely on a buddy to bail them out.

I'm my opinion any life support system that could have a catastrophic failure and make you dependent on a buddy to get out alive is fundamentally flawed.
I think that if you dive a redundant system and are 100% self reliant you will be far safer than a system in which a buddy is a key safety component.

don't get me wrong I understand that a buddy can help you out with problems, I am just saying that a frame of mind were you feel safer because you have a buddy there is in my opinion not a good frame of mind in cave diving, what if you get separated etc..

I just think (i may be wrong) that great majority of accidents happened on a buddy team and it made no difference to have a buddy.

I think that the buddy system depends on the quality of your buddies and that solo diving depends on you, I feel more comfortable counting on myself rather than relying on my buddies.

I think you should be able to count on your buddy in a pinch, but not to dive and depend on your buddy, that is not a good frame of mind in my opinion.

If I am totally wrong gimme a break, I have been in a brace, in pain for a few weeks after acl surgery, driving myself mad watching YouTube cave diving videos, dying to get back in the water.:smt013

to each his own.
I don't think, however, that the majority of us who regularly dive with buddies are 'dependent' on a buddy.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

to each his own.
I don't think, however, that the majority of us who regularly dive with buddies are 'dependent' on a buddy.

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Agreed. I think those of us who choose to not dive solo have made an educated decision based off of accident analysis. The cheap shot about self sufficiency is a way to belittle those who dive with a buddy without giving any supporting evidence.

Recent deaths seem to be trained cave divers who are making mental errors (or medical related) that perhaps could be prevented by the assistance of another brain in the mix. That being said, if you're going to take a buddy along, ensure it's one that really can back you up.

But the cool thing about adulthood is you get to make your own decisions.

I think it all boils down to the dive.

Some dives I have found that a buddy might not be a good thing. Others, having a buddy is essential.

Plan the dive well, and you will know which method is best for the dive.

Definitely, I agree.
I was wondering if the buddy system ingrains a false sense of security in some people who feel safer by the mere presence of a buddy.
In reality in a cave or anywhere for that mater you should be prepared to handle any emergency situation on your own and not rely on anyone but yourself.

At first you gain experience by diving with a buddy, but to always dive with a buddy all the time on every dive?

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Originally Posted by phillip1

Definitely, I agree.
I was wondering if the buddy system ingrains a false sense of security in some people who feel safer by the mere presence of a buddy.
In reality in a cave or anywhere for that mater you should be prepared to handle any emergency situation on your own and not rely on anyone but yourself.

At first you gain experience by diving with a buddy, but to always dive with a buddy all the time on every dive?

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i agree with that completely.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

I was thinking about this today, is the buddy concept really that much safer?
I may be wrong but it appears to me that in all accidents were a team of one or more were involved the fact that there was a buddy or buddies made no difference in the outcome.

.............

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I think every time I see this line of thought / question, it seems to turn ugly.
Surely we have all seen the postings.

Why not first just define your use of the word safer?
Then the question may be passe.

Don't get me wrong I dive on a regular basis with buddies, it is a lot of fun to be with a friend or friends on dives, discover new caves together etc.. But we do not feel safer just because we are together on perticular dive.
i don't know much about accident analysis but all the accidents I have read about involving solo divers had the same outcome as the ones involving buddy teams, the buddy appeared to make no difference.

I don't mean for this to get " ugly" I was just wondering.
I meant that some people might feel more safe/comfortable with a buddy but for no other reason than the actual presence of the buddy, this in my opinion is being dependent for your comfort and perceived safety and in my view is why the buddy system is flawed.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

I don't mean for this to get " ugly" I was just wondering.
I meant that some people might feel more safe/comfortable with a buddy but for no other reason than the actual presence of the buddy, this in my opinion is being dependent for your comfort and perceived safety and in my view is why the buddy system is flawed.

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Remember when you were arguing with Andrew over gas math? You bring tons of gas...maybe the presense of extra gas makes you feel more comfortable for no other reason than the actual presence of the gas.

It's flawed logic, but since these are stupid arguments, we can flip them on each other real quick.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

I was thinking about this today, is the buddy concept really that much safer?

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Well, it depends on your buddy.

You are better off with a buddy if:
1 - You can swim faster than him when the gator is chasing you.
2 - He has a better sac rate than you and, in an emergency, you are able beat the snot out of him and steal his remaining gas.
3 - He is a equipment ##### and has three scooters, two rebreathers, a van, compressor, good looking loose wife, and pays for dinner, gas, and booze.
4 - He is pathetic and will date your wife's butt ugly cousin Sadie.
5 - He leaves everything to you in his will.

This will help insure your personal safety, financial safety and marital harmony (which is of course the same as personal safety).


ps - Do us all a favor and don't think about this anymore. Spend your time contemplating your own navel as the center of the universe. (That's what I do most days).

Uh ok

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Remember when you were arguing with Andrew over gas math? You bring tons of gas...maybe the presense of extra gas makes you feel more comfortable for no other reason than the actual presence of the gas.

It's flawed logic, but since these are stupid arguments, we can flip them on each other real quick.

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When after swimming for three hours, I turn the dive and head out knowing I have more than enough gas to get out and deal with any problems that may arise is definitely "comforting" as I know i am more redundant

I am not advocating solo or buddy I just think that some people and I did say some, not all by any means, feel a false sense of security by being in the presence of another diver.

Look at OW it is ingrained in the training that buddy diving is the only way to go safety wise, divers get buddied up most of the time with people that don't know anything about each others abilities etc.. And off they go thinking it's safe cause you have a buddy.

I think there is a bit of this mentality in cave diving too.
I am looking at my navel right now:rollguy

Well, if diving backmounted, manifolded doubles then it certainly makes sense having a buddy (redundant gas supply) along for the dive and in a competent team it would indeed increase the margin of safety. Having a redundant buddy ("buddy backup") would be even better, thus the best team would be a team of 3.

Unfortunatelly, not all passage lends itself well to such large teams and often diving such caves with a buddy would increase risk by an order of magnitude.

The only right way to eat a hot dog is with chili on it.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

I am looking at my navel right now:rollguy

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Consider it as a swirling black hole from which neither light nor lint may escape.

In manifolded BM a buddy definitely makes sense, unless you bring a buddy bottle that you do not touch, for redundancy.

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Originally Posted by billybones519

The only right way to eat a hot dog is with chili on it.

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Heretic! The only right way to eat a hot dog is with sauerkraut!

Mike

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Originally Posted by billybones519

The only right way to eat a hot dog is with chili on it.

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Heretic! The only right way to eat a hot dog is with sauerkraut!

Mike

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Oh HELL no! I can't believe you went there!! ANY reasonable person knows that the ONLY right way to eat a hot dog is with slaw on it. :roll: You should probably have a chat with your hot dog eating instructor and demand your money back!

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Oh HELL no! I can't believe you went there!! ANY reasonable person knows that the ONLY right way to eat a hot dog is with slaw on it. :roll: You should probably have a chat with your hot dog eating instructor and demand your money back!

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Wrong again. DIR stipulates a hot dog on Wonder bread with ketchup and mustard.

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Originally Posted by HeloDriver

Wrong again. DIR stipulates a hot dog on Wonder bread with ketchup and mustard.

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Is there no end to the perverse and unclean practices being promulgated on this forum?

Who would pollute a perfectly good hot dog with chili (great by itself, but keep it away from the hot dogs!) or (shudder) cole slaw?

And anything including wonder bread can't be thought of as "right" in any context!

Now I'm going to get two hot dogs (I'm a caver - redundancy is important) with brown mustard and sauerkraut! And extra napkins. :)

Mike

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Originally Posted by HeloDriver

Wrong again. DIR stipulates a hot dog on Wonder bread with ketchup and mustard.

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We'll have to work on properly re-educating you next week in Cozumel. There's simply no way I can eat hot dogs with someone who would adhere to such craziness! It ain't fittin'! If it ain't fittin', it just ain't fittin!

The buddy fallacy has long been promelgated without much real thought behind it. An interesting way to look at it is from an insurance perspective where perversions, adverse selection and moral hazard for example, arise as a result of information asymetries. I like, especially, the moral hazard argument that the presence of insurance (your buddy) results in a risk displacement so that your dive might become more risky. Similarly, the wearing of a motor cycle helmet might be less safe because you then ride with less care then you would if you were helmetless. The presence of insurance in many instances results in behavior that would not be forthcoming in its absence. How many would build homes on barrier islands in hurricane prone areas if they were self insured...examples of this abound and there is a rich literature on it...now back to the regularly scheduled solo discussion. Bill

Obviously none of you have ever eaten a hotdog out of "SKINS" in Anderson, SC !!!!

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Originally Posted by HeloDriver

Wrong again. DIR stipulates a hot dog on Wonder bread with ketchup and mustard.

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nope. wheat bread.
and you have to wash it down with a wheat grass shake. that's day one stuff guys. come on.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

In manifolded BM a buddy definitely makes sense, unless you bring a buddy bottle that you do not touch, for redundancy.

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A completely hypothetical complete loss of backgas is real low on my reasons for taking a buddy.

I came to the personal decision a long time ago that "extreme diving" was solo diving. Extreme diving may be depth related or it may be the complexity/length of the penetration - cave or wreck. There is just so much a buddy can do for you in those "extreme" circumstances, IMO.

When you are soloing (even if you are with a buddy) you bring everything to the dive that you need to get out alive - should everything go south. I think that is how most experienced divers on this forum dive anyway.

My last 50 hours under water this year have been solo dives, some ranging up to 6 hours. I no longer feel "safer" with a buddy than without one. I do, however, strongly respect any serious diver, whether he or she in the water alone or with others.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

I was thinking about this today, is the buddy concept really that much safer?
I may be wrong but it appears to me that in all accidents were a team of one or more were involved the fact that there was a buddy or buddies made no difference in the outcome.

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You make some excellent points, but your opening statement is flawed in my opinion. If you only consider dives that were classified as "accidents" then clearly the buddy or buddies were not able to help change the final outcome. That is why it was an accident and not just a good dive. However, I'm sure there are quite a few "good dives" that might have been incidents/accidents if it were not for a good buddy. You can't use accidents to determine when the buddy system worked because by definition of an accident, it didn't.

Of course there is no way to determine how often a buddy (or lack thereof) changes the outcome of a dive without a crystall ball.

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Heretic! The only right way to eat a hot dog is with sauerkraut!

Mike

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YOU GOT THAT RIGHT (SMILE)...

Btw: Now that I have switched to Sidemount , I will still choose to dive with buddy/buddies. I don't like diving solo because I just prefer the company along on the dive. I like to share the memories etc. My basic personality just doesn't like solo. Nothing to do with whatever is better/worse etc.
Agreed , we are all diving SOLO anyway.
To each their own , I say. (SMILE)

Besides , it's LUNCH/SUPPER afterwards with the gang to hang out with that I LOOK FORWARD TOO!!!!! (rofl)

Tanx for letting me add my .000001 cents worth
Beano Baggins

P.S. GADS , I just saw the ketchup/Wonder bread one. (UFFDA)
Has to be mustard (spicy brown) and Kraut , if it has to be had.
NO ONIONS before diving though.
My nickname isn't ***** for nothing (ROFL AGAIN)

As I sat in front of my cavern and basic cave instructor, Mark Lenard, back in 1986, in an effort to sound "well informed" of the current debate at that time about solo diving, I asked him what he thought about solo versus buddy diving. Here was his response:

"Well Vince, it depends upon who I am diving with. If I am diving with Lamar (referring to Lamar Hires), I would prefer to have a buddy than be solo since he would be an assest to me in time of need. If I was diving with you however, I would be better off solo since you would be a liability at all times during the dive."

After 24 years he probably has not changed his mind about diving with me....LOL

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Is there no end to the perverse and unclean practices being promulgated on this forum?

Who would pollute a perfectly good hot dog with chili (great by itself, but keep it away from the hot dogs!) or (shudder) cole slaw?

And anything including wonder bread can't be thought of as "right" in any context!

Now I'm going to get two hot dogs (I'm a caver - redundancy is important) with brown mustard and sauerkraut! And extra napkins. :)

Mike

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Some may call this "hot dog strokery", but the only way to eat a hot dog is SOLO.
No wonder bread and no corn syrup in various colours - ketchup, mustard or relish!
Although I'm with you on the redundancy...

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Originally Posted by Cleavitt

You make some excellent points, but your opening statement is flawed in my opinion. If you only consider dives that were classified as "accidents" then clearly the buddy or buddies were not able to help change the final outcome. That is why it was an accident and not just a good dive. However, I'm sure there are quite a few "good dives" that might have been incidents/accidents if it were not for a good buddy. You can't use accidents to determine when the buddy system worked because by definition of an accident, it didn't.

Of course there is no way to determine how often a buddy (or lack thereof) changes the outcome of a dive without a crystall ball.

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I agree, i am sure there have been many dives were a buddy's help avoided a major accident, but I am sure there are as many if not more situations were the actions of an experienced solo diver got him or her out of trouble too.

For example in the UK almost all dives are solo dives and in extremely adverse difucult sump conditions, I don't think that there is an any greater proportion of accidents than in the US were it is the oposite and most dives are in buddy teams.

Well that being said then we should only dive with people better then us? No one will ever want to dive with me

So after thinking about this for just a little bit, I am getting to like diving solo, even when I have company. In general, I am more comfortable with fewer buddies, based on less chance of someone else "making things interesting".

If things do get interesting, how much can you really count on a buddy anyway? Some of the accident reports talk about teams that finally reassembled after exiting the water. Where's the team/buddy redundancy there? At least there is someone to get the search started I suppose.

I currently enjoy my solo dives with AL, they give me an opportunity to grow. To date I have kept them fairly conservative, diving systems where I already have basic knowledge. I have used them more to peek at nooks and crannies that a team would otherwise swim right by. Swim less, and see more. I don't have to be concerned about how fast or slow someone else is going. I can totally focus on just my dive.

I enjoy my buddy dives. The post dive camaraderie can be outstanding. Buddy dives provide an opportunity to share a beer, to review, to discuss and to gain another perspective on the just completed dive.

As I have gain more experience, I am continually amazed at how much more there is to learn, and how much more rewarding the progress becomes.

Heading to MX this week, diving w/ German. Try to leave some cave for all you folks next week. Wish my timing had worked out better, sounds like you all are going to have a blast. (Not that I am crying to much though:smt102 )

Phill, first, you are having too much time.. read playboy more often please..:)

I think is a personal thing, but, in the way a buddy can help you is not just in gas, just remember the cave collapse where you FK up you knee, could be worse and not be able to walk, we could carry you out easily, solo would have been a pain to get back in the water and swim back, claim out, etc.
there are lots of small collapses here in the caves, one could trap you a little bit and could be hard to get out alone, I had a little one the other day digging in a hole, a big rock fell in my back, roled on my ass and stuck my way out backwards, I made it out by myself but dave was behind laughing, if I get stuck badly he could get me out, a medical problem, a bad gas problem(like we also had), I can think of a very large number of situations a buddy could save your life and only a few involve amount of gas carried, is about a second brain, extra 2 hands and extra 2 legs that could carry you out in a problem, you could get stuck with a lot of gas, that could make your pain even longer.....

Touché!
I did mess up my knee but I was super lucky and was still able to walk for an hour after so I was able to get back out alone, had it been much worse and I had been solo i would have been in a world of trouble, so definitely the fact that you guys were there would have made a major difference.

On the other hand had I been solo I would not have listened to Thomas who said to move the big rock in the first place and i probably would not have done it, lol..
I am paying for that big time now with the surgery and down time.
I will never ever move rocks around in a cave again.

I agree with everything you say, what i meant is when we dive we are all self reliant, and i don't feel safer cause anyone is there, I know I can count on you guys in a pinch and vice versa but I do not rely on that or feel safer for it.

Also I think that solo diving I would be way more conservative as far as getting out in a dry cave and walking around, I actually would not do it alone for the simple fact that it is super dangerous with falls, collapses etc..and being alone in a situation like that could be a major problem.

I will not move rocks in cave, i will not move rocks in a cave, I will not move rocks in a cave, I will not move rocks in a cave..................

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Originally Posted by jj1987

A completely hypothetical complete loss of backgas is real low on my reasons for taking a buddy.

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I know someone that dives a single 80 saving all his backgas for failures. Course he has the SAC rate of a 90 year old field mouse.

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Originally Posted by adam0321

Well that being said then we should only dive with people better then us? No one will ever want to dive with me

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I've always subscribed to this and luckily I've been able to find a lot of divers better than I am that have been willing to dive with me. I think the really good one's pitty the newbs.

My thoughts on solo diving are from other divers:

I strongly believe that any diver not mentally prepared to be solo on a dive is inadequate to the task and using another diver as a crutch. However this fact doesn't stop me realizing diving with a competent buddy is always the best policy. ---- Mark Chase

The only way to dive solo and remain safe, is if you refuse to dive with an idiot. ----- Dave Sutton

I really prefer to dive solo, but some places won't let me!

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Originally Posted by Dsix36

My thoughts on solo diving are from other divers:

I strongly believe that any diver not mentally prepared to be solo on a dive is inadequate to the task and using another diver as a crutch. However this fact doesn't stop me realizing diving with a competent buddy is always the best policy. ---- Mark Chase

The only way to dive solo and remain safe, is if you refuse to dive with an idiot. ----- Dave Sutton

I really prefer to dive solo, but some places won't let me!

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My point exactly, using another diver as a crutch is a false sense of security and a house of cards waiting to crumble in the event of a real problem.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

Touché!

On the other hand had I been solo I would not have listened to Thomas who said to move the big rock in the first place and i probably would not have done it, lol..

I will not move rocks in cave, i will not move rocks in a cave, I will not move rocks in a cave, I will not move rocks in a cave..................

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I'd say, will not listen to thomas again instead of not move rocks again, or even better, you should say, next time will send thomas to move the rock, next time will send thomas to move the rock :)

Yeah good idea send Thomas.

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Originally Posted by billybones519

The only right way to eat a hot dog is with chili on it.

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That gives you more gas - does that make solo diving safer?

Solo diving is not for everyone.
But.....I think everyone with the skill set and maturity to try it should do it at least once.
There are not enough words to describe the experience and the benefits.
I would go almost as far as to liken it to a person who takes a cavern class to improve their wreck or general diving skills.
Their is a reason they make a pilot candidate perform a solo flight check-out.

I would also go as far as saying that if you cannot perform a solo dive successfully you are not truly qualified to be a good buddy.
Regardless of what anyone says there is too much complacency in buddy diving. In a lot of cases people are relying on their buddy(s) to do the dive planning, make some decisions, run their reels, be their bailout, be their brain, be their conscience, etc, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jay

I would also go as far as saying that if you cannot perform a solo dive successfully you are not truly qualified to be a good buddy.

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Strongest argument I've ever heard for it, I'll have to think on that one.

My first one I had a simple failure with an inflator hose comming unsecured and for the life of me I couldn't locate it, had the dry suit and was already at max depth so it wasn't that big of deal but something that simple I couldn't fix myself, pretty much those are the things I like a buddy for "hey where's this" "can you clip this back there" "do I have a leak on my left post"

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Originally Posted by divindoc

That gives you more gas - does that make solo diving safer?

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Chili dogs do give you more gas, but it is only usable for drysuit inflation.

I'm with Jeano - I have enjoyed the few solo dives I've done, but I really enjoy sharing dives with buddies - the pre and post dive visiting and most especially the post dive eating!

Mike

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Originally Posted by Jay

Solo diving is not for everyone.
But.....I think everyone with the skill set and maturity to try it should do it at least once.
There are not enough words to describe the experience and the benefits.
I would go almost as far as to liken it to a person who takes a cavern class to improve their wreck or general diving skills.
Their is a reason they make a pilot candidate perform a solo flight check-out.

I would also go as far as saying that if you cannot perform a solo dive successfully you are not truly qualified to be a good buddy.
Regardless of what anyone says there is too much complacency in buddy diving. In a lot of cases people are relying on their buddy(s) to do the dive planning, make some decisions, run their reels, be their bailout, be their brain, be their conscience, etc, etc.

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Precisely

While Thomas is moving the rocks maybe he can mess with the hornets and the thorns next time as well! Someone needs to clear those new holes so we can get in.

Last time I went there like a year ago it was a bit less overgrown and we had a bunch of kids with machetes. This time i could not go but next time we will get the kids to come with us and cut through the access, we need to spend a few days there there are a lot of holes to check.
Cristian told me you got killed by the wasps, DR wasps do not mess around,lol...

The ideal buddy is one who is as self sufficient as a solo diver (whether or not they ever solo dive) but has excellent buddymanship skills.


However:

Very few (if any) "buddy divers" reach the level of personal and equipment self-sufficiency expected of a solo diver. More solo divers reach that goal but not all do.

Not all solo divers achieve good buddymanship skills (though most can).


Not all solo divers dive solo because they are capable of doing so safely. Sadly some do it because no "buddy" feels safe diving with them - either because they have poor diving skills, poor buddymanship skills, inadequate equipment, unrealistic estimates of their own skills and abilities, or are too aggressive in their risk taking (or in some cases multiples of these).

finally a good discussion going, what Jay said is well said, and gary is very right as well.

I enjoy better dive with a buddy, (specially if a hot looking girl in a tight wetsuit which never really happened) but sometimes I did wanted to kill the buddy underwater before he killed me..., and when that happened I was wondering why I didn't go by myself...

Good points. I know excellent solo divers that make crappy buddies and excellent buddy divers that are not comfortable diving solo (although probably are qualified and able).

I love diving, do it a LOT, and feel perfectly comfortable diving solo. I also enjoy the company of buddies. My attitude is "I am prepared to get you out if you get in trouble, but I'm not going to count on you getting me out." That's not a put-down to my buddies (most are WAY more qualified than me!), but rather my way of self-rescue and prevention....so I don't get into a situation I can't get myself out of.

That being said, I'll dive with almost anyone. The "almost" means 1) if you want to dive above your training....no. 2) if you bust the gas plan (break thirds or sixths or whatever was the plan)...never again 3) if you're an ass regarding safety (ie the guy who immediately upon surfacing yelled at me "Why the F... did you turn? I was just starting to have fun!") ...never again.

Heck, I even dive with Vince, even if Mark won't :smt081

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Originally Posted by Gary

The ideal buddy is one who is as self sufficient as a solo diver (whether or not they ever solo dive) but has excellent buddymanship skills.


However:

Very few (if any) "buddy divers" reach the level of personal and equipment self-sufficiency expected of a solo diver. More solo divers reach that goal but not all do.

Not all solo divers achieve good buddymanship skills (though most can).


Not all solo divers dive solo because they are capable of doing so safely. Sadly some do it because no "buddy" feels safe diving with them - either because they have poor diving skills, poor buddymanship skills, inadequate equipment, unrealistic estimates of their own skills and abilities, or are too aggressive in their risk taking (or in some cases multiples of these).

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Good points Gary!
Like anything else you have to have an open mind to improve yourself.

Agreed

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I hope I have the skills to get myself out of most situations I can get myself into. But I hope that having a buddy or buddies will help keep me OUT of situations where I have to save myself . . . I've had buddies catch my errors more than once, and I've been part of discussions where two of us outvoted the third on significant questions.

The biggest piece of redundancy my buddies bring with them is their brains.