following the water, how?

Hi guys, just some questions, I know some of you have done in the past dye testing and other kinds of tests to know where water goes and if connects to other caves and where, etc.

could you explain some methods, from easier/cheaper to more complex ones.

we got several caves here and would be interesting to know from where water comes from and where is it going or if spreading in all the caves, or if different sources, and many more questions that would be interesting to answer.

is the dye visible, or an scope or something is needed? would it colour the water for a while? will degrade in time, etc, etc....

well thanks and sorry for all the questions, really don't know the methods, I could open an ink bottle and stain the whole cave... maybe will look cool after, but don't really think it is a good idea :)

If the flow is direct, you *mght* be able to see the dye, but usually the dye is detected by "traps" and analyzed in a lab.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dye_tracing

We really need to figure this out

In TN anyway it's illegal to do a dye trace that produces a visible response. Tends to freak people out and generate a lot of calls when the creek turns fluorescent green or red, or their well water comes out of the tap like that. They also require permitting of all dye traces, mostly just to keep track of who's doing what where so you don't step on each other.

You collect the traps and send them off to a lab where they can detect the presence of the dye. That's just little bags of activated charcoal. But of course you have to strike a balance between not making the river green and still having detectable levels of dye. Which means that you have to do a rough estimate on how much dye to inject in the first place.

Kind of a loaded question. There can be a lot more to it depending on what exactly you're trying to accomplish, and the nature of the system you're tracing. It can be a long term project, or it can be real quick like drop it in here and it comes out there a few hours later.

For instance what are the levels in the water already? If what you inject doesn't get over the 'background noise' of contaminants already there it's useless.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

We really need to figure this out

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The first thing to do is check with any local universities, to see if someone is already doing ground water studies.

One simple way is to survey the caves, not the flow direction(s) and plot the cave systems in relation to one another. Pay special attention to fractuire lines as these often control development of cave systems. If you can get potentriometric maps of the region, which shows the height of the ground water at different locations, it will show you the overall trend of flow in the region.

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Originally Posted by mpoucher

One simple way is to survey the caves, not the flow direction(s) and plot the cave systems in relation to one another. Pay special attention to fractuire lines as these often control development of cave systems. If you can get potentriometric maps of the region, which shows the height of the ground water at different locations, it will show you the overall trend of flow in the region.

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well dye would be complex if the dye last long to go away.

Mike we do have some maps of the systems, we have a general idea of the flow, but actual caves are a bit away, there are sinkholes in between but not caves, for the potentriometric map... well... I had to make the road map myself because there are not really maps so figure it lol.
we would like to know if the flow splits to go to the different systems, or if are different sources of water.

forrest, nobody is doing it, is why we would like to learn as much as possible about that to see if there is interest in doing it, and of course we would like to know :)

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Originally Posted by Neptuno

forrest, nobody is doing it, is why we would like to learn as much as possible about that to see if there is interest in doing it, and of course we would like to know :)

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If nothing else, a university may have a laboratory that could analyze the dye traps. If not, you would have to send them to a lab in the US, England, etc.

Cristian, I am starting PT Thursday so if all goes well I will be back in like three weeks.
As soon as I get back let's go to Byahibe, i will drive down with Thomas and bring the tanks and gear. I cannot dive but you guys can start the mapping of the area and figure out were the flow goes, definitely a weird flow pattern. I will have to stay outside and wait, but at least I will be doing something that has to do with caves

like cooking BBQ for example?? :D

we need to resurvey it all anyways so lets do it, the info of the old surveys are not easy to find and might be not really accurate.

we can do a beer test in the water, I'm sure thomas can detect a particle in a millon in the water :) would be cheaper than sending to the lab

EDIT: by the way.. I got most of your gear lol... I think dave liked the razor

Yeah a BBQ. All my gear huh? Anyway I can't dive for like four months or so. I will be Thomas and your driver.