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Just a simple poll to see some information on training length of the cavedivers on CDF. No sway either way, just asking for information for our own pursuit of education (since the Cave certifying agencies won't provide this information).
This poll is PRIVATE, so hopefully more people will participate.
I did cavern way too early, then got out of diving during high school when sports took over. Took Intro and apprentice down the road within about 6 months and around 40 dives, then took full about 6-7 months after apprentice and about 50 dives.
I would like to see cavern+intro and apprentice+full combined. It confuses me how we can teach someone that a cavern can become a cave, yet someone who's a cavern diver cannot enter a cave...basically we're saying that you're only safe to dive a cave in an emergency situation? Also I don't see why apprentice divers can do 2 jumps but not 3, or dive stages. I think the better route is to give a full education as soon as possible and allow the diver to dive within their comfort zone. The intro phase is one I don't like, but a "necessary evil" to gain experience to base your comfort zone off of once you earn a full cave rating. It keeps you on mainline so you can experience a variety of cave, minor silt outs in places like Telford, but nothing all that nasty in most cases.
Looking back, I say take the courses 2 at a time, with about 50 dives between cavern+intro and apprentice+full. The longer you wait, the easier it becomes to break rules. How many "experienced" intro divers do we have doing jumps, or apprentice divers stage diving? I'm all for mentoring, and gaining experience on easier dives at the level above your current level, but one issue I see is that sometimes mentors are just diving people up a level and not teaching. I was talking to a NAUI Cave 1 diver just recently who's doing deco, stage diving, solo diving, and the dive plans involving visual jumps as well as blind traverses. I got lucky and had a few C2 divers dive me up a level through various stages of my training (intro diving 1/3rds and easy jumps, apprentice staging), but I do unfortunately see now how the example we set by doing that has a negative reaction with those who aren't surrounded by qualified mentors.
I checked less than 14 days although to tell the truth it was 16 days.
Even though I got a "full cave" card I chose to dive at the intro level for quite a while. I moved from sixths to thirds first, then added navigation skills along the way. As I have added navigation I have done it slowly, and am now still imposing personal limits on just how complex the navigation is that I am willing to do. Still very conservative by many divers standards.
Mark Vlahos
My training took over 3 years and I dont regret that one bit! I had 2 great instuctor along the way and was taught plenty. I took cavern, went back to Ohio and practiced for a year. Did a private intro, practice for another year and came back to do my full. Moved here 2 years later to be closer to what I love!
First, FTR, I'm still Cavern. :) I'm taking a little break between Cavern and Intro. to work on skills, but I hope to do Apprentice + Full together.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
I would absolutely agree with you about the "2 at a time" course structure and I was trying to do that for myself. But one of my issues is that I'm doing all the cave training in "doubles" and "drysuit" (I did Cavern that way) since that's how I expect to cave dive on a regular basis upon reaching "full," and since I already have Adv. Nitrox/Deco in that config. from the same instructor. The problem is that Intro (with doubles) is time limited. I'd have only 1-1.5 years in between Intro and Apprentice/Full to "get comfortable enough" to go for Full Cave. And in my case, that might not be enough for me, unless I can get my instructor to re-cert. me for Intro with doubles.
So, unless I can make that happen, I'll probably stay at Cavern level a bit longer (no time limit) until my skills rise to the level that I can get all of it done at once (ie. 1/4 hero --> hero). I know it's unrealistic to expect that, and the correct place to take that break is between Intro and Apprentice, as you suggest. But when you're in "doubles," it gets a bit more complicated.
I understand why the time limit is there (for both Intro/Doubles *and* Apprentice). I guess I just wish the agencies would have a little more faith/trust in my ability to make the right choices for myself. But I suppose, given some of the problems we've seen with people exceeding their training, it has to be that way... :smt102
... and I disagree just as strongly. There are four courses with new skills and info at each level. I believe each course should be taken, and then skills polished, before the next level is tackled.Quote:
Originally Posted by mag3
I also think cavern should be taken in a single unless the diver has considerable experience in doubles. There's a lot of new stuff to be learned, and it's no time to be learning a new configuration on top of that. Jacket BC, AIR2, however you've been diving in open water, should be your setup for the cavern course.
An excellent point indeed and perhaps a bit of a double edged sword I suppose. One diver coming from the warm clear waters of the gulf stream used to diving the jacket BC and the air II might be treated one way. Another diver that has only dove doubles for years and hails from the NE or the Pac NW, familiar with diving extremely low vis and high currents may well be a horse of a different color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
However, when I worked with students, it always seemed to boil down to their attitudes. Those that come in with a degree of humility, and a willingness to learn "generally" seemed to be the easiest to teach and came out better in the end.
Specifically, what skills are different between Apprentice and Full Cave? Having taken each course, I don't have an answer, and I don't even think it's clear in the training manuals. The only thing I've heard is the level of mastery expected by the instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Which is what I'll be doing, at least, after: Cavern & Intro/Doubles... But, in your opinion, what are the significant skills differences between "Apprentice" and "full" that need to be "polished" before moving onto "full?" Intuitively, I see significant, well defined break points between Cavern/Intro and Intro/Apprentice, but I'm having some trouble seeing it for Apprentice/Full. And again, since Apprentice is time limited, how much time (or how many Apprentice level dives) should one have before moving on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Complex navigation, which I certainly consider a skill, and longer deco, which involves possibly carrying more bottles, which I think is a skill, and more gas switches.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Took a little more than a year...
I'm glad I took cavern in doubles... I was relatively new in them, but I had zero issues with the conversion. Had maybe 30 dives on them before class... and honestly, would have been just fine after the 2nd dive :P I liked being able to start my overhead training in the same gear that I'd be finishing in...
There was a considerable learning curve with SM for me though :/ all good now.
See, I would posit that this person should get familar with doubles in OW. Then take cavern in doubles. This is not suitable gear for a beginner to stumble into a cave with - and many caverns can turn into caves very fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Oh and it was about 18months from intro to full cave for me.
Almost one year, but still learning since then.
My dive buddy and I took 7 grueling days in which I questioned why was I there on several occasions. It worked for us, but I wouldn't recommend it as a general rule. One has to be ready, both physically and properly equipped. The psychological aspects can't be prepped for as one is dealing with a whole new set of unknowns.
By the end of the week I don't know who was more beat up, us or the instructor. By far a most humbling experience.
Dale
Cavern and intro on one trip. Full on the next trip (just under 6 months later.). My third dive after full cert was a scooter stage dive in JB. (The second was a swim stage in JB, same route, both with my cave 'mentors')
I already had over 1000 OW dives including trimix and lots of wrecks.
I agree that it should depend on the individual involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by diveconjeff
I took Cavern and Intro together after about 15 years of doubles diving and about 10 years of technical decompression diving. Doing Cavern as well as intro in doubles was a no brainer decision as switching back to a single tank would have been a major PITA and counter productive as it makes much more sense to train the way you plan to fight, so to speak.
However, I also took my Cavern class with an experienced OW instructor in a single tank and poodle jacket. She did ok but she herself noted and commented on the rock solid stability doubles can give after buddying with me in lights out line and air share drills. She recognized the value in getting proficient in doubles before returing for Intro.
At the other end of the spectrum we also had a gentleman in the class who attempted the class making his first dives in doubles and it was an unmitigated disaster. The instructor should not have allowed it in the first place and should have switched him back into a single tank after the first dive or two when the problem was obviously not going to be resolved in the next day and a half. In a single, he may of at least had a chance of successfully completing Cavern.
Neither of my class mates advanced to Intro on that same trip - but neither of them were ready for Intro either. As more or less a transition from technical wreck diving, I did both Cavern and Intro in one 4 day session and was told I was ready for full cave if I wanted to pursue it at that point. I chose to wait a year or so however to build experience at the intro level and polish my newly acquired intro to cave skills prior to adding in the complex navigation skills that come with Apprentice and Full.
When it came time to finish full cave, I again chose to do it in a single 4 day session as I was going into it with a reasonable degree of experience at the intro level.
In that regard I agree with Sludge that there is a great deal of value in consolidating newly acquired skills before moving on to additonal skills. How that applies to combining Cavern and Intro or combining Apprentice and Full then depends on:
1) how many of the Cavern skills are reallly "new", and
2) how much experience the diver has at the Intro level to provide a solid base for the subsequent full cave skills.
I do know a few zero to hero divers, but the smart ones made a decision to stay very conservative and dive at essentially the intro level until they acquired significantly more experience.
Interesting responses so far. Thanks for the honesty. Hopefully more post.
i knew i wanted to cave dive right from ow dive #2. i took cavern & intro in singles at dive #100. i was diving every weekend, one in the quarry & the next driving to the caves. the loose 'plan' was likely gonna be to do app/full in a year or so from cavern/intro. i wanted to do adv nit/deco proc that fall & finish cave in the spring.
well, we plan, god laughs - had a baby instead & didn't finish until jan 09, 3 years after i started cave diving & 4 years after i started diving.
i don't recommend that as a way to control the speed of taking cave classes...
I know a couple people who only want to dive caverns, and have no interest at all in diving at even the intro level. Sure, a cavern can become a cave relatively easy, but the divers I reffer to only dive some of the fair weather caverns anyway.
I think cavern has a place, alone. I certainly have no issue with people who want to pair it off with Intro though.
I did Cavern / Intro in 1999 with Pat Watson.
I did Apprentice and Cave with Lamar Hires in 2002.
Most agencies only allow one navigational decision at the Apprentice level not 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
The main skills expected at the Apprentice level are situational awareness and learning the cave. At the Intro level, divers have been penetrating to 1/6 of double cylinders and improving skills learned in cavern and intro courses. Now we're taking them twice as far into the cave and allowing a navigational decision for the first time. It's no longer gold line, it's now white line that's much thinner and more difficult to see. It's also taking divers out of the water source tunnel. There's a big difference. It's also very clearly spelled out in the training manuals. The issue I have seen is most instructors teach the 4 day cave course and start out day one with a planned circuit or multiple jump dive. Per standards that shouldn't actually be done until day 3 of the 4 day course.Quote:
Specifically, what skills are different between Apprentice and Full Cave? Having taken each course, I don't have an answer, and I don't even think it's clear in the training manuals. The only thing I've heard is the level of mastery expected by the instructor.
To answer the original question, it took me over a year to go from cavern to cave and I spaced it out over 3 trips - cavern, intro with AN/DP (5 days), and 4 day cave. I also did about 3 dozen cavern dives before taking intro and then another couple dozen or so intro dives before cave. Once at the cave level I still took it slow. I have never been a believer in pushing it all the way to 1/3s and I started off slow with jumping off the main line.
Kim and I took cavern in singles (her a 100 HP, me a 120 Hp, a 7 ft hose and an air 2. Probably a "real" cave diver would have shot us. I think I contributed to my instructor quitting the instruction field :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Myself and a friend went from "zero to hero" in a 1 week course. We were both on rebreathers and had no prior OC cave training. It was a grueling and task loaded week with more drills than I care to remember. There were a lot of mistakes made and lessons learned. We both came away very humbled in the knowledge that we needed a lot more practice and time to master the new skills.
2 years
maybe a bit less. I don't remember
Interesting numbers... More please. :)
Err... other than reviewing a bunch of self-congratulatory unsubstantiated statements by people who took forever to learn some pretty simple skills (apparently Floridians learn slowly....), most of whom have posted these exact opinions in other threads, what does anyone think they're learning in this thread?
I did a quick search on the words "zero hero" and found about 3 pages of THREADS, many themselves running many pages, of similar statements.
Seems Floridians not only learn slowly, they also forget quickly... or require massive reinforcement... :)
Ah... and I took longer than 14 days. I actually believe that doing so reduced the learning, but what would I know... I only teach for a living...
God, imagine if armies did this.
basic hand combat 1
3 months in the field, min 10 enemy killed
basic hand combat 2
3 more months in the field, min 50 enemy killed
basic weapons 1 (no more than 5 bullets, 1 magazine)
3 more months, min 100 enemy killed
basic weapns 2... oh damn, there don't appear to be any "recruits" left to take that class so forget it.
So to sum up what you're trying to say...Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
You tend to believe that the students who take a "condensed" cave diver class actually have the opportunity to learn more?
Can you expand on that?
Nope. I sugest that you reread your survey. Nowhere do you state that the classes are "condensed". Most cave syllabi (certainly CDS, IANTD, NACD) are split into 4 x 2 day classes, for a total of 8 days of instruction. As I understood your first post, you were just asking how people split those 8 days up.
I am suggesting that continuous training may actually be better than training broken up. I am not suggesting LESS training. I am just suggesting that taking the training contiguously is not necessarily such a bad thing.
With graduate level classes, I've tried teaching classes where there's a break in the middle. Invariably I spend my first week or so back in the classroom reteaching the stuff they'd forgotten. I will no longer do it - it's just inefficient use of the time.
BTW, I am also a huge fan of REFRESHER classes. if anyone finishes their full cave, doesn't dive for 4 months, and thinks that when they return to the water the're in good shape, they're nuts. They should pay an instructor to run over skills with them for a few dives.
How many people ever do that?
Andrew, while I agree that taking a break during academic courses can be detrimental to progress (just look at our grade school system, after a 3 month summer break, the first month or 2 is spent getting students up to speed), it's different when it comes to training someone how to do something physical. Didactic learning takes place a few hours a day, no more than 5 days in a week, and often reduced to 1-3 hour periods. This works well. In fact, I'll go further and say that shortened periods work better. I taught community college for over 10 years. I taught classes that met once a week for 3 hours, classes that met twice a week for 1.5 hours each session, and classes that met 3 times a week for an hour each. I didn't see much of a difference between the 1 and 1.5 hour sessions, but the students in the 3 hour sessions rarely did as well as the students in the 1-1.5 sessions. Attention span, even with a break every hour just doesn't stay at its peak for that long. Now take a cave course that last 8-10 hours a day for 8 days straight. Add dive planning assignments to each night after class and gear maintenance and preparation for the next day (hanging suits out, recharging batteries, etc) and this greatly reduces the attention span and learning of students during the latter half of the course. You are comparing apples and oranges trying to compare graduate level courses to cave training.
It depends on what you are teaching.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I agree with yopu in terms of my experience teaching college level academic subjects.
I have a different opinion in terms of flight instruction, I agree that a student starts spending excerssive time re-learning the prior lessons if they are not flying at least 2 or 3 times per week and every day is preferrable. The academics are significantly different than the eye motor loop skills taught in the actual aircraft. That is true at the basic flight level and becomes even more the case as you advance to things like instrument flight where you start layering the academics on top of the eye motor skills and put it all together with large amounts of task loading and a demand for much improved SA where the student also has to start thinking progressively farther ahead of the aircraft. The student then has to apply all those skills in progressively higher performance aircraft where the horizon for planning, situational awareness and and anticipation has to be pushed even farther out.
It sounds like an argument for continuous learning until you start considering the total calendar and flight time involved and look at a training syllabus. Whether it is military, Part 91 or Part 141, it starts to become obvious that they are designed to provide 1-1 instruction initially and as new skills are taught but with progressively more solo flight and/or practice and proficiency flights to allow the student to consolidate the lessons learned in actual real world practice ensuring a sufficient level of mastery before moving on to more advanced techniques.
I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which example has more relavence to cave diving.
Should we make it a 11 day course and include DPV & Stages too? :?Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I'll agree with you on academics. Continuous learning is the best way. It's one major pitfall with computer science programs in colleges. You have C, Java, SQL, etc before you can take an upper level course where you write real software. By the time you write your first code in that course, it's been >2 years since you took Java. On the other hand, you don't have the experience writing any programming language to attempt a real program right out of java, so it's a catch-22.
In the sense of cave diving, I worry that the physical fatigue would inhibit a divers ability to perform to their highest level during the class, and time would be wasted working on remedial skills that would be fine when they're well rested. I also think universities see the value in allowing students to go home and study the material covered in class. I know that we're given at least 24 hours between meetings to review notes and study. Last week we were studying performance evaluations and hard disk scheduling. I missed the question in class because I needed to go home and memorize the 5 scheduling algorithms....there was simply no use in continuing to discuss disk scheduling in class until I had some time to master what was already covered. Very similar to if I jammed a reel in JB's flow and had to re-run it the very next day without some practice time in lesser flow caves like Peacock and Madison to build up my skills. There's a physical aspect that's just going to take time. I can calculate deco obligation, dive time, and scooter burn time as well as gas requirements for a dive to EOL in Manatee but that doesn't mean I'm physically nor mentally ready for such a dive.
Finally, college professors are at an advantage over cave diving instructors because their students are pre-screened via SAT/ACT and GPA's.
Not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you here since you didn't post an ideal time frame. For me, cavern+intro then 50 dives, and then apprentice+full cave (which should include stages IMO) is the route I would go if I did it over again. I would say a 1-2 year time limit on that would be reasonable as well, but I'd prefer closer to 1 year. I would like to see sidemount and dpv still offered as voluntary training for divers to seek out when they feel they need it if they don't have easy access to mentors diving with those tools.
I think to rush the process is foolish. Just my 2 cents. Thanks to Obama that is all i can afford.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I think the key point there is people who finish their course but don't dive for a while. A lot of folks do a warm up dive with a mentor which is fine. I am OK with folks who recognize they need to 'shake the rust off'. That is a sign of diver maturity. Knowing your limits or recognizing your limitations is a dive by dive thing. But there are folks out there that don't do that, they are the ones who would not take a refresher course anyway. You can't fix stupid.
I agree. People also have trouble integrating information and moving information to long term memory under large amounts of stress. If you've ever bene through boot camp, OCS, etc you'll recognize a pattern of intense stress initially that then fades to a lower level of stress after about week 2. After 2 weeks they have more lss broken donw any rsistance to change and eliminated the non useful behavior patterns, but then they back off on the stress so that you can actually learn something new.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
To some extent, the same thing applies to cave training. By neccesity you need to stress students and task load them to see how they perform in stressful and task loaded situations. But it can start a downward spiral if a student worries about poor performance and then stresses about having to repeat it with a better result on the next dive, the next day, etc.
In many cases, getting solid on the basics or prior material will greatly reduce both stress and task loading and free up more psychological and physical resources for the new stuff. That argues for greater learning as well as greater retention in a cave training program where various segments may be split up over 2-3 trips with practice in between versus a single zero to hero class. I suspect long term retention is also much improved with lower doses over time (admittedly with some review needed, although that review may happen during the practice dives with buddies, mentors, etc in normal dive briefs and debriefs) as oppsed to a zero to hero format.
OK, so the key issue is that cave diving, like many more physical pursuits (flying is a nice example since, like cave diving, it has a mix of mental and physical requirements), requires lots of practice. But does it require a year of practice?
There's probably a middle ground that works well. For example, pilots that I've seen take a year to get their licence aren't the sorts of people that you want to fly with too often. They generally do too little flying with long breaks in between, and end up being pathetic especially when encountering something unexpected.
Another nice thing about the pilot example is that there's a certain mandated amount of solo time required before getting a licence. A certain number of DIVES (not a period of time) in between classes (especialy intro and apprentice) might be useful (ignoring my flippant comment about soldier training).
One thing is for sure - I can think of some divers whose skills I really respect that did 8 straight days of training with no dives in between, and some pathetic ones that took 6 months to a year. And I can think of inverse examples. I really think this thing is just way the hell overdiscussed. Many of you who live in the panhandle believe that there should be a practice period in between, because you a) have the luxury of being able to dive any old weekend, and b) didn't have the cash to do it all together anyway. Fair enough. But I'd argue that it moves one away from realizing a few key issues: a) we're not born equal. Some of us will always suck, some of us are naturals. b) That natural talent is mediated by practice. The more you practice, the better you'll be regardless of natural ability. How one does the training is minor relative to these.
And at the end of the day, currency is what really matters. You have to practice these skills, whether during or after training. Which sucks for people like me that live on the other side of the country. I try to make it up by being in the ocean most weekends, but there's no doubt that it's a poor substitute for being in a cave. Although it can be fun... here's last weekend's fun:
www.asainslie.com/videos/destroyerapril10.wmv
Yes, practice is key. I had nearly 1000 dives, and took a few years break, and when I started back, I was back at apprentice level. It took a couple of months to get back to where I had left off.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
FWIW, OW diving isn't bad practice, if you treat it like it was a cave, and only surface at the beach, or boat. Also try to keep good cave bouyancy and trim. It helps a lot to use cave gear :-)
any video with stevie playing is OK in my bookQuote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I found the 40-something dives I had between Cave 1 and Cave 2 were useful to simply practice going through cave without beating the crap out of the cave. In retrospect right out of C1 I was clanging my tanks on some very large cave passageway in the beginning, and I got much better before C2. There's a certain amount of confidence building as well that occurs. Going into C2 with complex navigation and restrictions having those abilities made me better coming out of C2 than if I'd just taken C1 and C2 back-to-back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
The conclusions above make sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by aainslie
I had been diving in the ocean at the tech level and then took the full-cave work in one week - my goal was to learn how to use a reel to penetrate the Doria but I ended up getting hooked on cave diving. My next cave dive, a month or so later, was with my current buddy and we started with a 90-minute dive. Actually, I can't ever remember us doing anything less than an hour on any cave dive since, as most were an hour or two on OC and have steadily worked up to 4 to 6 hours on RB. He probably had 800 hours or more in caves when we started together in 2001, is a talented and incredably safe diver, and has turned out to be an excellent mentor - taking me in most of the caves in Florida & many in Mexico.
So, I agree that it depends on the instructor, the student, his or her background before taking up caving, the quality of the people he or she dives with after certification, and the frequency of dives during his career.
Given the above, a good student should be able to master the threshold skills that go with full cave in one week, IMO. Without all of that in place I can see it taking longer.
How many caves are in Florida?Quote:
Originally Posted by w ripley
At least fifteen or twenty.:smt102Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
That many huh?
He means all the clear ones :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
There are 678 in my GPS, and I suspect that is less than half.
Pm me that in spreadsheet form pls.....lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Did cavern and Cave I at the same time. But had already been diving doubles.
I personally think anyone interested in Cave should take both and if their skills are not up to par for cave only get the cavern card.... But I also think some people should not get any card if they don't show the skills, yet I see people with cards that makes me question where they got them.
Damn, I've been in 18 - I'm distressed to hear that I only have two new ones to look forward to! Then I'll have to take up golf. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Mike
Lots of holes in golf! :smt081 Just ask Tiger!Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
It is less than half...Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I actually played golf once - I saw no need to repeat it. It seemed like a cruel psychological test of the ability to withstand boredom.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
And I think I'll avoid any Tiger style explorations - the thumping he got from his wife is nothing compared to what I'd get from mine!
Mike
Apparently I've crossed the state line unbeknownst on my cave excursions, yikes! Over 40 sites and I only THOUGHT they were in FL?Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
since when did we start exporting caves? I thought we had the market cornered
I think Ainslie, as usual, has a very good point.
I did Cavern/Intro in October of 2007. I then did about 20 cave dives in Florida, and went back and did GUE Cave 1 (which is basically cavern and intro combined) in May of 2008. It was a much more extensive and demanding class than my original class, and I learned a lot from it and was glad I did it. I then did 89 cave dives over the next year plus, starting with simple dives and taking on more responsibility with each trip. I got some mentoring from a variety of people during this period, to improve technique, and the cave taught me some lessons, too :)
I then went to take Cave 2 in Florida, where I learned that waiting and doing a whole bunch of largely uneventful cave diving did not serve me well in being well-prepped for remembering all the emergency protocols I had been taught but had never had occasion to use. I agree with Andrew that continuous instruction would have avoided that, but I disagree that that is the best approach. Instead, I think the higher level classes should have built into them some review time. How many people have had occasion to do a lost line drill, or lost buddy drill, or take a team of three out air-sharing, swapping sides of the line, during their normal diving?
At any rate, I did not pass that class, and went on to take NACD Full Cave in Mexico a few months later and passed that with no problems. So my training went from October of 2007 to November of 2009, and I made a mistake by waiting as long as I did to move up.
I DO like the GUE approach of having people master doubles, buoyancy, trim and non-silting propulsion in OW before presenting for cave training, though. It sure makes things smoother. We took our original Cavern class with someone who had not done that, and who found some of the basic drills (like no mask swimming) very challenging, where we just shrugged and said, "Oh, this again." Cave time, for those of us who don't live in cave country, is too precious to be spent learning things that can be learned elsewhere, IMHO.
I like it too. In the real world it is also not a strictly GUE concept. Separate from whatever agency standards exist, some instructors expect the same level of proficiency before progressing to more demanding technical training.Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
Back when I started technical dive training the instructor's expectation was at least 100 dives with at least 30 to 100-130' along with proficiency in doubles and low silt techniques. Everyone in the class met that minimum and it allowed the class to truly work on advanced techniques and on the thinking/problem solving portions of the training.
I will note however, that there are a lot more technical diving instructors now and a larger percentage of technical diving instructors who will take relatively unskilled OW divers (and their money) and attempt to turn them into technical divers.
In that regard,where GUE excels is in course standards that formalize those entry level expectations for technical training.
Ainslie has a point here - I always wonder what's so great about doing 200 dives between Intro and Full.
Apart from that: I find the emphasis on number of dives completely misguided. What actually keeps you safe are the dives you don't do and practice. Attitude, knowing your limits, keeping your ego out of it, realizing that skills deteriorate unless you use them. 200 sightseeing dives along the main line in Ginnie will definitely not make anyone a safer diver...
Why not?? Between Intro and Full, I practiced emergency protocols on a regular basis, not only in the caves, but also in the Arizona lakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
Easy to do if you just put it into your dive plan. Maybe I'm the exception, but I did practice those skills in between courses.Quote:
I agree with Andrew that continuous instruction would have avoided that, but I disagree that that is the best approach. Instead, I think the higher level classes should have built into them some review time. How many people have had occasion to do a lost line drill, or lost buddy drill, or take a team of three out air-sharing, swapping sides of the line, during their normal diving?
I disagree. All of my dives are sightseeing dives. I've had things happen that either totally messed with my head because they were in the first hundred cave dives, or that were non-events after I had five hundred or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Stroeck
Last year I had an episode with a flooded, stuck-on scooter. Had something like that happened when I was a relatively new cave diver you could have just shot me on the spot. But it was just an annoyance because of all the sightseeing dives I've made.
As my open water instructor used to say, there's no substitute for bottom time.
Rob, in retrospect, we should have done drills in OW to stay current. Nobody I know does. Some people are smart enough to hook up with their team and do them prior to the next class; I didn't have that opportunity.
I'm not talking, by the way, about S-drills or valve drills or deploying backup lights. I'm talking about blackout line following in teams of three and moving the team across the line, and things like that. We all keep current on our basic drills.
You got that right ... (ROFL)Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
Couldn't hide in a cave either.... She'd find you , fer sure.
Beano
I took my second cavern class in March of 98 then finished the rest in May in Mexico. Even though I had the card I didn't start doing kick ass dives. Progressivly over 4 years I practiced skills and progressive penatration. It helped that my dive buddy was intro all that time but we both learned. He went on to get full cave finally. Then we started diving with other people and going to different places. It was a shock, I must say, learning in Mexico and then diving in Florida caves! I wished I had learned in Florida.
In my C2 course in MX with fred+danny we did review of lights out gas sharing exits on the surface and danny covered all the details really well, and the only hard part about shoving my OOG buddy through the cave was realizing that the reason we weren't moving was that my tanks were stuck in the restriction...Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
Cavern: 1993
Intro and Apprentice: 2009
Full: 2010
Does 17 years from start to finish qualify as a record?? :clapper
Not all of us are such sloooow learners. :smt102Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky1948
Yes...for me it's a life-long process... :yawinkle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsix36
Depends on how you count it. My first cavern dive was in 1968, and I finally got a "full cave" *card* in 2003...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky1948
I've been Full Cave longer than Forrest! :rollguy
Did they not have cards back when you were the CDS Training Director?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
(I'll refrain from saying anything about cuneiform and clay tablets...)
Mike
This brings up a good question. When did the "full cave" card first appear? I got my basic (or was it called Intro back then?) cave in 84 and full cave in 86, so it had to be before that.
We did, but I only had instructor cards. Who knew you would need one to get into divesites :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by MORGAN
It 2003, I "crossed over" to NACD, and my first "full cave" card was from them. I finally got one from the NSS-CDS, which has a training date that says "before cards" :-D
So it turns out I'm telling the truth when I say Forrest's been cave diving since about 10BC.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
:roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Excellent! Not only can I say I've dived with you, but also that we got certified the same year!!Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
WJH
How much did your certification cost
in just training and travel
0-$500
1000-2000
2000-3000
3000-4000
4000-5000
5000+
0-$500, but that was a long time ago :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by piranha
My OW class was a whopping $30, and I never had to pay for cave, except the card fee.
You left out $500-$1000 ;)
my full cave (cave 2) course was in this range.Quote:
Originally Posted by piranha
including cave 1, i'm probably in this category.Quote:
5000+
That's why I didn't answer. My instructor charged $175 per level, and let me stay in his motel room with him for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Mine was $150 for cavern/intro to cave and $900 for full technical cave. Lodging was cheap $20 a night and nitrox was unlimited fills for $25 per weekend. So the total cost from Cavern to full technical cave was $1,500
I've never heard that term - how does it differ from cave?Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken
From IANTD...
The IANTD Technical Cave Diver course introduces the student to more complex planning and navigation in cave dives, using 100% O2 and decompression to extend bottom times. Techniques learned during the previous levels of cave training are further reinforced, and complex navigation skills are emphasized.
Topics include advanced cave diving planning, recalculation dives, simple and complex traverse procedures, simple and complex circuits, jumping procedures, reverse jumping procedures, decompression diving and procedures, dissimilar tank turn around procedures, anti silting techniques, trim and equipment streamlining and line protocol and awareness. Accident analysis continues to form the basis of the training.
Chicken, this is in no way directed at you, but looking at these two pages:
http://www.iantd.com/iantd3.html
http://www.iantd.com/IANTD_Course_Breakdown_2009.pdf
... IANTD seems to be the PADI of technical diving.
For travel, lodging and cert I'm at about $700 just for Cavern. Intro will probably be over $1K for that training..Quote:
Originally Posted by piranha
As for training time, I did cavern last year and have spent the time since practicing my weak areas. I hope to get Intro in this summer. Then it's back to Iraq, so it will be at least 5 years to complete.
You can't judge IANTD based on those charts. While they do have a variety of courses, the prerequisites vary. For example, you don't have to take the Recreational Trimix Diver course to take the Advanced Recreational Trimix course. In fact, you don't even have to take Advanced Nitrox to take Advanced Recreational Trimix. You also don't have a be a full Cave Diver to do the Technical Cave Diver. The prerequisite for Technical Cave Diver is to already be certified in Advanced Nitrox or Advanced Recreational Trimix or have sufficient experience or training as determined by the instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
So, while the charts make it look like there are all sorts of prerequisites for the different levels, that's not the case. There are just a variety of courses someone can take, but once you take certain courses, then you no longer have to take many of the others because they are inclusive.
It took me a while to learn the standards, and several re-reads!
Technical cave also allows the instructor to put the diver in the water with a stage bottle at the "full cave" level, which IMO is something that's lacking in the NACD curriculum. I wish it were required like NAUI/GUE, but I don't think it is...(not sure however)
Did you read what you just wrote? And how much do YOU charge for the Elite Diver course?Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
The prosecution rests, your honor.
Sludge, you asked what the technical cave cert was and I replied with the answer. I wasn't soliciting insults. But if it makes you feel better your agency (whatever it is) is better than mine and you are a superior cave diver. I hope someday I can be certified through your superior agency and meet the standards YOU have set for a qualified cave diver.
The agency doesn't make one a good diver, the instructor does. But the agency makes money every time a C-card is issued. And that's about the only time it makes money.
If you read their course offering, don't they seem to have about five times as many courses as they need?
It's no different than SDI, SSI, NAUI, or any other recreational agency. The difference is IANTD does it all under one name. Although I'm rated to offer IANTD recreational courses, I haven't taught one and don't go out of my way to market them. I only offer and teach the cave and technical courses through IANTD. So, I don't offer the Elite Diver course. However, for you Russell, I'll make an exception. ;) And I'll even do it for free. You will have to pay the cert fee, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Oh, and agencies don't make much on C-cards. The only time they really make money is when they sell student manuals.Quote:
But the agency makes money every time a C-card is issued. And that's about the only time it makes money.
Actually, stage diving is allowed whether it's Technical Cave or Cave. The standards don't specify either one.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Kinda not fair not to count in lodging because it would have been hard to pop in back to NY for some sleepyeye. Anyway, I am just Apprentice this far but counting in only cert days' lodging, travel, training an estimating and another 2 day package to finish Full in NFl my price will still squeak to $3000-4000 range. If I left the lodging and taxes out maybe I could just stay in about $2999.99 :D But counting in realistic expenses (having to stay more than cert days, eat and live), it's def >$3000.
Hey Russell,Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Not so sure that is fair. I think IANTD is more of a gas cert agency. PADI...is well, PADI. Apples and oranges.
If you follow the NSS-CDS and/or NACD norms to full cave and carry a stage bottle on enough of your training dives, you can get all three certs at the same time (depending on your instructors qualifications)...NSS-CDS Full Cave, NACD FUll Cave and IANTD Technical Cave.
What the IANTD Technical Cave cert really does for you is more on the gas side - if you do it right. It seems convoluted to me, but as I recall, it "qualifies" you for 100% O2 deco, and allows you go straight from Advanced Nitrox to Advanced Trimix. It really did not strike me that it meant much on the cave specific side compared to NSS-CDS or NACD training at the Full Cave level.
It can provide a shortest possible path to diving deep caves. Cavern/Intro and Advanced Nitrox in one step...Full Cave (NSS-CDS/NACD) + IANTD Technical Cave step two...Advanced Trimix step three. Not sure if you can do the one week to Full Cave approach and get a Technical Cave and Advanced Nitrox as well which combines steps 1 and 2...that would be even shorter...granted, not necessarily a good thing IMNSHO.
ATB,
Bob
Cavern/Intro: $700 tuition, $500 airfare, tanks and fills included
Cave 1: $1800 tuition, $500 airfare, tanks and fills included
Cave 2: $2000 tuition, $600 airfare, tank rentals and all fills were extra and rental van was painful
Full Cave: $800 tuition, $500 airfare, tanks and fills included
Between 1500-2000 including gas for the car, gas for the tanks, tuition, books, etc. This is a total for Cavern through Full Cave over a couple years, not per class - yikes! I don't think the lodging would bump me into the next area, but it might...
Actually, that's not true. You still need to take Normoxic Trimix before you can take Trimix with IANTD, even with the Technical Cave cert.Quote:
Originally Posted by addexdiver