Rules of Engagement?? what have you done?

JUst wondering to what lengths you have gone to keep open water divers out of caves. I have told numerious people not to enter the cave and explained the dangers. I have gotten into a few heated arguments while gearing up. I was at JB once on a sat and I was the only one there. Two dives came via kayak with open water gear and tried going in. Took a bit but finaly told them I would call the rangers if they went into the cave.

Some one once told me(who is a tec,cave instructor and padi course chief) that he was at a cave once and two open water divers kept talking about how they were going to go into the cave and he kept telling them no. I guess attempts to call the police didint work and they geared up and startred walking to the cave. The instructor "says" he went up to them handed them each $50.00 and then cut there hp lines on there regs and said "you will thank me someday". I cannot attest to the truth of this story but it is entertaining.

just wondering what stories you guys had??

My random thoughts

If they are adults, they should ultimately have the freedom to kack themselves. I don't want the "police" telling me I can't dive a certain site because I don't have a sidemount card or a scooter card, etc.

If I bar them in some way (intimidation, threats, etc), they'll just come back when I'm not there.

If I talk to them, explaining (hopefully without preaching), the dangers (the "real" ones not just "you don't have training, you'll die" ones), then hopefully, they'll make a good decision. If that's not sinking in, I'll move on to how nasty cave divers can be to OW divers that screw up and get cave sites closed. The things we'd do to your dead body... :smt119

I practiced on my teenagers ;) I figured out that once they think I'm preaching to them, or getting all authoritative, they simply stop listening.

It's even worked a couple of times, and I have never been happier than when one person I'd talked to in that situation came up to me later down the road and proudly showed me his new cavern card. :clapper

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Originally Posted by adam0321

.... The instructor "says" he went up to them handed them each $50.00 and then cut there hp lines on there regs and said "you will thank me someday". I cannot attest to the truth of this story but it is entertaining....

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It is pretty hard to cut a HP hose, so I think the story is mostly BS.

The sadest case of this was a father "teaching" his kid to dive at Peacock. I tried to convince him to get the kid proper lessons, but to no avail. An hour or so later, the father and a buddy headed for pothole. I recovered the father, with the kid sitting on the shore in shock.

I used to worry a lot about this, and had long "talks" to OW divers at dive sites. One such diver ended up a CD instructor, and president of the NACD.

I wrote to all the OW agencies of the time (not that many in 1977) and told them the dangers of their instructors checking out students in caves. That resulted in letters going out to all OW instructors banning checkout dives in caves.

Probably the best thing I did was start up the Cavern Diving program. I can't take full credit, it was actually Sheck Exley's idea.

That was over 30 years ago, and it did help a lot, but in spite of all the information available people still have hard heads. There may not be much you can do, other than offer them information to get proper training.

A tactic I have seen work is to hand them a piece of paper to sign, willing all their gear to you, if you have to recover their bodies later.

Crazy local "bootleg" cave divers have given me a few gems to dive... I think they're nuts, but they've been doing it forever and stay alive to drink that next beer.

Its a weird thing...

I think its the non-local, OW divers with no experience in the locale and want to rush into a cave, that pose the biggest hazard to themselves and cave access. I do everything I can to stop these idiots short of getting physical.




I'm not saying its right, or safe... I just can't argue with a person who's been doing it for decades and still gets out safely. Even if their gear, trim, and overall diving practices are horrid by todays standards.

For me it really depends, do they have any gear that I want? If so, I'll offer my dive buddy a few bucks to not report them and we'll start the bidding.

Got to hear an instructor this weekend who was teaching a class, saw OW divers in Devil's. He took their light and opened it underwater, ruining it. IMO that gives a terrible image for our community, talking to them is about all we can do.

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Originally Posted by FW

A tactic I have seen work is to hand them a piece of paper to sign, willing all their gear to you, if you have to recover their bodies later.

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Sounds like these forms should be included in the Save-A-Diver Kit... yuk yuk... wow that was bad... But seriously, seems like something handy to keep in your kit.

yeah I have had the best luck with simply telling them there is nothing to see but wet rocks. And that alot of people have died and that there is more to see outside the cave

Another thought, triggered by FW's post:

If we could somehow "get" to all OW instructors, especially the non cave-diving ones, and help them to understand, I think we'd be onto something. Cave diving was not covered in my OW class except the "don't dive beyond your training blah blah blah." I think it makes a lot of sense to specify and spend a few more minutes on it, especially in Florida, where there are so many opportunities for them to hit a cave.

My students have to watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" as part of their OW class. I don't avoid the subject of caves (hard to be around me for 5 minutes and not know it's my true love). I've talked to a couple of OW instructors who are horrified by me doing this.

Hmmmm, maybe one or more of the cave agencies could host a "fun" day somewhere and invite generically "all current OW instructors." Throw in some door prizes, t-shirts, etc, have some fun with it, but create the opportunity to get "our" message across, and impress upon them the importance of passing that message on to their students. Heck, Ginnie might even be interested in co-hosting.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

...If we could somehow "get" to all OW instructors, especially the non cave-diving ones, and help them to understand, I think we'd be onto something.....

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Technically, all OW classes are supposed to warn about the dangers of overhead diving. Or ar least were 20 years ago.

Shirley, that is a great idea. Get on it.


In my opinion, I just simply follow a process:

1. Ask them if they want to hear why they should not dive beyond their training into caves in a nice and educational instructor tone.
2. If they refuse education because they know it all, I simply ask them to write down their next of kin phone numbers and place them in their vehicles. That way the sheriff officer that handles their recovery process will know who to contact.

If they are going to kill themselves, they should at least make it easy to contact their families.

Other then that and you are crossing the line and can get into legal trouble.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Another thought, triggered by FW's post:


My students have to watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" as part of their OW class. I don't avoid the subject of caves (hard to be around me for 5 minutes and not know it's my true love). I've talked to a couple of OW instructors who are horrified by me doing this.

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I do this on day one, hour one, after the introductions. My students need to be aware of what is or could be in their backyards. It may be a little harsh, but I dont want one of my students(nor anyone else for that matter) dying in a cave.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

My students have to watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" as part of their OW class.

I've talked to a couple of OW instructors who are horrified by me doing this.

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I'm more horrified by the thought that there are OW instructors that don't do this! My wife shows it to her OW students, and she also tells them, before they write the checks for the class, "SCUBA divng is using life support equipment to enter a potentially fatal environment. The closest thing to it is space flight. If you're not ready to be as organized, as detail-oriented, and as safety conscious as an astronaut, this isn't the sport for you."

Mike

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Originally Posted by FW

...in spite of all the information available people still have hard heads. There may not be much you can do, other than offer them information to get proper training.

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Yup. I have signed many people out of the ER who were determined to sign out against medical advice. In one case, a man refused treatment even after being told he was having a heart attack. Nothing the ER staff said could make him stay, even when we got his wife and his personal physician on the phone to try to convince him. He came back by ambulance a few hours later in cardiac arrest and could not be resuscitated.

People can do pretty much what they want - all we can do is make sure that they have the information that they need to make good decisions. When they choose to disregard it, and won't listen to reason, they're on their own.

Mike

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Originally Posted by jj1987

For me it really depends, do they have any gear that I want? If so, I'll offer my dive buddy a few bucks to not report them and we'll start the bidding.

Got to hear an instructor this weekend who was teaching a class, saw OW divers in Devil's. He took their light and opened it underwater, ruining it. IMO that gives a terrible image for our community, talking to them is about all we can do.

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That guy had better be tough... That is asking for a punch in the nose on the surface.

Oh, and so as not to seem like I'm just bashing at OW instructors, I had the pleasure of being at a site where both cave and OW diving is allowed during an OW class. I'm gearing up and overhear the instructor explain "there is a cave here, and while we've talked about never going into a cave until you're trained, I also want to remind you about dealing with cave divers. They're a tough, hard group of folks with really big knives and bad tempers. They leave tanks and reels and such lying around in the oddest places, and if they ever catch you touching one, MAN, it won't be pretty!" Now, by the tone of her voice, she was obviously being tongue-in-cheek to an extent, and her students caught that, I believe. But she also made her point ;) And I nearly choked trying not to laugh out loud :smt081

I agree Shirley. You can try to have a reasonable conversation, but in the end it is the individuals right to KAK themselves or not, and they have to make that decision themselves.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

For me it really depends, do they have any gear that I want? If so, I'll offer my dive buddy a few bucks to not report them and we'll start the bidding.

Got to hear an instructor this weekend who was teaching a class, saw OW divers in Devil's. He took their light and opened it underwater, ruining it. IMO that gives a terrible image for our community, talking to them is about all we can do.

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How did he know they were OW and not Cavern? For many agencies, the gear set is the same for both, minus the snorkel.

I usually try to politely and pleasantly talk about the training. To become an open water diver you only need some classroom time, some pool sessions and 4 supervised open water instructional dives. To start cave training you need to have Advanced Open Water, and buoyancy skills that for most divers don't come until they have 100 or 200 dives under their belt, and that is what you need to start! I tell them that once you start cave training it is 16 instructional dives and at the conclusion of training then you are ready to begin as a newbie. I always try to impress the considerable difference in the amount and type of training in an attempt to highlight the less forgiving nature of the overhead.

Most divers are amazed at how many dives are need just as part of formal instruction, not to mention how much experience is needed just to start. There are always the hard headed ones that don't listen. Most of them will never get it no matter what, so I just shake my head and move along.

Mark Vlahos

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Originally Posted by sskasser

How did he know they were OW and not Cavern? For many agencies, the gear set is the same for both, minus the snorkel.

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No idea. I was thinking the same thing to myself. Regardless I was amazed that a NSS-CDS board member would do such a thing. It really leaves a bad taste in the mouths of someone who might just need a firm talking to and shown where to seek training.

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Originally Posted by ssmdive

That guy had better be tough... That is asking for a punch in the nose on the surface.

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Agreed. If you're going to pull stunts like that you better have a re breather where you can stay down a loooong time, or big enough to fight back.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

No idea. I was thinking the same thing to myself. Regardless I was amazed that a NSS-CDS board member would do such a thing. It really leaves a bad taste in the mouths of someone who might just need a firm talking to and shown where to seek training.


Agreed. If you're going to pull stunts like that you better have a re breather where you can stay down a loooong time, or big enough to fight back.

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really?

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Originally Posted by jj1987

It really leaves a bad taste in the mouths of someone who might just need a firm talking to and shown where to seek training.

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If the GIANT signs on land at the entrance to devil's, the grim reaper signs in the cavern, self preservation, and just plain common sense hasn't worked, I fail to see where a firm talking to would help. some people will just never get it.

We have cave divers that are partially trained exceed their levels all the time, and they OVIOUSLY know better. It has been happening for a long time, and will continue to happen for a long time.

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

really?

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No, I was being facetious.

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Originally Posted by Marc Bryan

If the GIANT signs on land at the entrance to devil's, the grim reaper signs in the cavern, self preservation, and just plain common sense hasn't worked, I fail to see where a firm talking to would help. some people will just never get it.

We have cave divers that are partially trained exceed their levels all the time, and they OVIOUSLY know better. It has been happening for a long time, and will continue to happen for a long time.

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Correct, nothing you can do at this point other than set a good example and not go out of your way to get an assault charge against you.

In the DR it is 100% LDS PADI instructors taking unsuspecting clients way past the cavern zone on penetrations of over 300-400mtrs.
these are all OW instructors and should know better.
There is a big difference between me as an idiot going into a cave and getting killed and a group of unsuspecting dive shop clients sigining up for what they think is a safe dive.
I once saw a group of 5 OW divers in El Chicho coming out of the jump after the airdome, (which is already 350mtrs into the cave) the jump is a major resrtiction, this is with no line etc..
I talked to the instcuctor and really gave him **** and he somehow thinks that the safty guidlines do not apply to him as he has cave "experience" whatever that is.
They went in a further 100mtrs or so past the airdome.

I also saw a group of 4 OW divers coming back from way past the mainline in Cueva Taina, which starts way past the cavern zone and is super silty and has many halloclines, again with no line all OW.
Again this was iresponsible LDS instuctors taking OW clients on a cave "tour".

Report them to PADI. They take that type of standards violations very seriously.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

In the DR it is 100% LDS PADI instructors taking unsuspecting clients way past the cavern zone on penetrations of over 300-400mtrs.
these are all OW instructors and should know better.
There is a big difference between me as an idiot going into a cave and getting killed and a group of unsuspecting dive shop clients sigining up for what they think is a safe dive.
I once saw a group of 5 OW divers in El Chicho coming out of the jump after the airdome, (which is already 350mtrs into the cave) the jump is a major resrtiction, this is with no line etc..
I talked to the instcuctor and really gave him **** and he somehow thinks that the safty guidlines do not apply to him as he has cave "experience" whatever that is.
They went in a further 100mtrs or so past the airdome.

I also saw a group of 4 OW divers coming back from way past the mainline in Cueva Taina, which starts way past the cavern zone and is super silty and has many halloclines, again with no line all OW.
Again this was iresponsible LDS instuctors taking OW clients on a cave "tour".

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Originally Posted by sskasser

How did he know they were OW and not Cavern? For many agencies, the gear set is the same for both, minus the snorkel.

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If at Ginnie, the wristband is visible if diving wet in most cases.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

No, I was being facetious.

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No you weren't, you lying sack of poo poo.... ;) And I might add that I totally disagree with what the instructor did also, it makes the whole community look like arrogant jack asses!

Safe diving,

Rich

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Originally Posted by sskasser

My students have to watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" as part of their OW class..

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That's great Shirley.

I always felt if they really wanted to get this video to hit home,they should have the cave divers stripping gear off of the victims,and putting in the trunk of their car and driving away. In a sad way,people will be so irate over someone taking their property,they won't take the chance of entering the cave.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

My random thoughts

If they are adults, they should ultimately have the freedom to kack themselves. I don't want the "police" telling me I can't dive a certain site because I don't have a sidemount card or a scooter card, etc.

If I bar them in some way (intimidation, threats, etc), they'll just come back when I'm not there.

If I talk to them, explaining (hopefully without preaching), the dangers (the "real" ones not just "you don't have training, you'll die" ones), then hopefully, they'll make a good decision. If that's not sinking in, I'll move on to how nasty cave divers can be to OW divers that screw up and get cave sites closed. The things we'd do to your dead body... :smt119

I practiced on my teenagers ;) I figured out that once they think I'm preaching to them, or getting all authoritative, they simply stop listening.

It's even worked a couple of times, and I have never been happier than when one person I'd talked to in that situation came up to me later down the road and proudly showed me his new cavern card. :clapper

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I was reading this, but then it seemed to get all authoritative and preachy, so I kind of stopped paying attention ...

I figure, if someone wants to die, this is the USA, and that may be their "pursuit of happiness" :)

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Originally Posted by FW

Report them to PADI. They take that type of standards violations very seriously.

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we are thinking seriously on that...
they said they "stopped" that in bayahibe but talking to some guys they got special permition to dive, and where taken in for a regular OW guides...so... still same thing

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Originally Posted by FW

Report them to PADI. They take that type of standards violations very seriously.

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I did and PADI said if they were not teaching a PADI sanctioned course they could do nothing, I then asked PADI to send them an email reminding them of the limitations of cavern diving and the safety guidelines and they did nothing!
I emailed and even spoke to the top brass at PADI as they were all here doing a IDC thing and they were like we will send an email etc.. it's in the works.

:blackbar2they do not care and did absolutely nothing.

This was over a year and a half ago and PADI really does not:blackbar2

In the DR it we will be installing warning signs and giving out informational letters to all LDS about the dangers of cave diving, we hope that at the very least if OW clienst see the signs they will think twice about going in the cave, we will also be sending an email informing all cert agencies that the signs are in place and the LDS have been warned so if (god forbid) something happens or LDS keep taking OW divesr way past the cavern zone the instructors will maybe get sanctioned.

The problem in the DR is that not even the cave diving community:blackbar2, we have been trying to motivate other cave divers to get involved and help us out with the signs and letters but it was not until we got fed up and just did it ourselves that anything got done.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

That's great Shirley.

I always felt if they really wanted to get this video to hit home,they should have the cave divers stripping gear off of the victims,and putting in the trunk of their car and driving away. In a sad way,people will be so irate over someone taking their property,they won't take the chance of entering the cave.

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Or show pictures of the deceased's hands.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

For me it really depends, do they have any gear that I want? If so, I'll offer my dive buddy a few bucks to not report them and we'll start the bidding.

Got to hear an instructor this weekend who was teaching a class, saw OW divers in Devil's. He took their light and opened it underwater, ruining it. IMO that gives a terrible image for our community, talking to them is about all we can do.

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James,
If you heard this instructor/BOD say this first hand, I'd really like to know who it was, being election time and all.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Another thought, triggered by FW's post:

If we could somehow "get" to all OW instructors, especially the non cave-diving ones, and help them to understand, I think we'd be onto something. Cave diving was not covered in my OW class except the "don't dive beyond your training blah blah blah." I think it makes a lot of sense to specify and spend a few more minutes on it, especially in Florida, where there are so many opportunities for them to hit a cave.

My students have to watch "A Deceptively Easy Way to Die" as part of their OW class. I don't avoid the subject of caves (hard to be around me for 5 minutes and not know it's my true love). I've talked to a couple of OW instructors who are horrified by me doing this.

Hmmmm, maybe one or more of the cave agencies could host a "fun" day somewhere and invite generically "all current OW instructors." Throw in some door prizes, t-shirts, etc, have some fun with it, but create the opportunity to get "our" message across, and impress upon them the importance of passing that message on to their students. Heck, Ginnie might even be interested in co-hosting.

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I don't teach much OW anymore, but any non-overhead diver I teach gets to watch Deceptively Easy and Rescue 911. I even have them linked on my website: Diving the fresh water springs.

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Originally Posted by RN

I don't teach much OW anymore, but any non-overhead diver I teach gets to watch Deceptively Easy and Rescue 911. I even have them linked on my website: Diving the fresh water springs.

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yup made me watch them when i did my intro course.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

James,
If you heard this instructor/BOD say this first hand, I'd really like to know who it was, being election time and all.

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I'll send you a FB message.

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Originally Posted by Marc Bryan

If the GIANT signs on land

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It is too bad people can't read those giant signs. Every few years someone doesn't read the several signs that say don't jump off the platform at Devils,and they break their neck. Ginnie gets sued,and our entrance fee goes up.

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Originally Posted by adam0321

JUst wondering to what lengths you have gone to keep open water divers out of caves. ...[J]ust wondering what stories you guys had??

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This situation seems to come up once or twice a year, but I've only got one decent story.

It happened while decoing in the Ear at Ginnie about ten or so years ago. Two OW rigged divers entered the hole and stopped at the log and chain. After some gesturing and pointing toward the cave entrance, one pulled out a small light and started for the opening. I caught the other diver's attention, wagged my hand and head in an emphatic "NO" -- he hesitated, then stopped. The first diver either didn't see my warning or ignored it and kept heading in. I caught up just as he began pulling himself through the restriction and grabbed him by the tank valve. After a few seconds of struggling, got him loose and the flow took care of the rest.

A few minutes later, after he and his buddy regained his composure on the surface, they tried again. This time I simply blocked them, shaking my head firmly "NO", and refusing to allow him to pass. I pointed to his "OW" marked wrist band, pointed to the cave, and shook my head "NO" a couple of times. After a minute or so, they finally left and I completed my deco obligation (about ten minutes).

When I surfaced they were waiting at the steps. One was pretty irate (I figured he was the guy I wrestled with) but the other was quiet. Mr. Irate started bitching loudly as I organized my stage and deco bottles, removed my fins and climbed out of the water. At the top of the steps I told him that I'd just saved their (f*#&%@g) lives and this was a pretty sorry thank you. I then suggested we head over to the office and ask my friends what they thought about this situation. Mr. Irate calmed down and they decided to go dive the Ballroom instead.

Was it the "right" thing to do? I suppose that depends on how you look at it. When Mr. Irate questioned me as to my authority to keep he and his buddy out of the cave, I simply replied that every cave diver has not only the authority but an obligation to keep OW divers from killing themselves in "our" caves. Now I'm not entirely comfortable with that position, but it did make an impression on Mr. Irate and his friend, and I would prefer that "our" caves remain open, so that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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Originally Posted by cavedog57

This situation seems to come up once or twice a year, but I've only got one decent story.

It happened while decoing in the Ear at Ginnie about ten or so years ago. Two OW rigged divers entered the hole and stopped at the log and chain. After some gesturing and pointing toward the cave entrance, one pulled out a small light and started for the opening. I caught the other diver's attention, wagged my hand and head in an emphatic "NO" -- he hesitated, then stopped. The first diver either didn't see my warning or ignored it and kept heading in. I caught up just as he began pulling himself through the restriction and grabbed him by the tank valve. After a few seconds of struggling, got him loose and the flow took care of the rest.

A few minutes later, after he and his buddy regained his composure on the surface, they tried again. This time I simply blocked them, shaking my head firmly "NO", and refusing to allow him to pass. I pointed to his "OW" marked wrist band, pointed to the cave, and shook my head "NO" a couple of times. After a minute or so, they finally left and I completed my deco obligation (about ten minutes).

When I surfaced they were waiting at the steps. One was pretty irate (I figured he was the guy I wrestled with) but the other was quiet. Mr. Irate started bitching loudly as I organized my stage and deco bottles, removed my fins and climbed out of the water. At the top of the steps I told him that I'd just saved their (f*#&%@g) lives and this was a pretty sorry thank you. I then suggested we head over to the office and ask my friends what they thought about this situation. Mr. Irate calmed down and they decided to go dive the Ballroom instead.

Was it the "right" thing to do? I suppose that depends on how you look at it. When Mr. Irate questioned me as to my authority to keep he and his buddy out of the cave, I simply replied that every cave diver has not only the authority but an obligation to keep OW divers from killing themselves in "our" caves. Now I'm not entirely comfortable with that position, but it did make an impression on Mr. Irate and his friend, and I would prefer that "our" caves remain open, so that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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I remember the incident with Tyler Moon many years ago similar to this,that resulted in assault charges.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I'll send you a FB message.

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oh just post it garrett. you wont surprise anyone with the name

In my experience (the DR) the problem lies 100% with PADI MSDT instructors taking OW clienst way past the cavern zone, these morornic instructors know the overhead diving hazards and limitations yet feel the safety rules do not apply to them.
Also in my experience PADI could not care less, I think they are well aware of the many cave "excursions" going on worldwide by PADI instructors yet they do absolutely zero.
Again in my experience dealing with OW instructors it's like talking to a brick wall they really think that they know better and I am anoying for even bringing this up.
If PADI cared they would send out a email to all the LDS and instructors worldwide reminding them of the limtations and safety guidlines of cavern/cave diving.

About a year and a half ago PADI told me they were going to do this and that they were aware of this problem but so far nothing.
As I said previously in the DR even the cave diving safety officer is doing zilch about instaling signs and safety education so we are not waiting around for anyone's help and doing it all ourselves.

I think that it is every cave diver's responsibility to inform OW divers and the general public on the dangers of untrained cave diving at every occasion you get.
If even only one person listens toyou, you may have saved his/her life.

You may have had incidents the specific people from PADI but there are instructors in all training organizations including iantd and nacd that break training standards. The problem isn't just one organization.

where can i find that video called decepitively easy way to die? is it on the forum somewhere?

YouTube it, one of the recent threads also had a link to it.

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Originally Posted by ltb7733

where can i find that video called decepitively easy way to die? is it on the forum somewhere?

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http://goo.gl/ysdj

As an OW instructor and a cave diver, i dont show my students the easy way to die video i do very much stress that if they are even remotley intrested in caves to go get the training and i give them the nacd website. I dont do any checkout dives at ginnie or peacock for that reason only vortex. I will take them down to the edge of the cavern so they can see the sign and me give the the overhead signal and shake my head. i have also told them that if i hear or find out that any one of my students have gone in the caves or any overhead of that matter they will be getting a nice phone call and haveing a little "come to jesus meeting"

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Originally Posted by ltb7733

where can i find that video called decepitively easy way to die? is it on the forum somewhere?

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It can also be bought from the CDS store.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

YouTube it, one of the recent threads also had a link to it.

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The one that really got to me, mentioned earlier, is Rescue 911 (episode 202), also on youtube.

Part 1

Part 2


Why anyone would go in untrained after watching that eludes me.

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Originally Posted by Skorpiov

You may have had incidents the specific people from PADI but there are instructors in all training organizations including iantd and nacd that break training standards. The problem isn't just one organization.

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could be, it is a really bad situation when the actual instructors are the ones at fault for taking OW divers way past the cavern zone.
And an even worse one when training agencies don't do anything at all to sanction any such instructors or LDS.

As long as the PADI's and co of the world don't get in legal trouble I think they could not care less.

Shortly after I started cave diving (before full cave was complete) I bought a copy of "a deceptively easy way to die" and handed it to my LDS in Fort Myers, told them to show it at the end of every OW class. I don't know if they do or don't (I don't go in there too often these days), but I figured it might help to put the information out there.

As far as interacting with OW divers, if I see them coming in and I'm going out, they get blinded with a 21W HID to the face - hopefully they won't be able to see anything and they will leave. I was told in my cave classes to NOT touch anyone, lest I risk the assault charges. But I've given a good eyefull of HID to a few folks over the years.

Mark

Lots of good posts here. I have found over the years that "you can't fix stupid" but we must keep trying to! We will help some from making fatal mistakes as long as we all try.

its just amazing to me how hard headed some people can be.

just curious as an ow inst can you pull someones card?

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Originally Posted by adam0321

just curious as an ow inst can you pull someones card?

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The answer is basically "no" cards are not pulled, if ever, even though your instructor would like you to believe he can do it whenever he/she wants to.

I suppose if an instructor had an unusually good re pore with an agency, like if Tom Mount was your personal buddy or something you might convince him to pull someones card for some egregious action(s).

A bigger agency, like PADI or NAUI...no way. It's hard enough getting them to pull someones gold card (instructor card) even if they get someone killed, Their not going to bother with a legitimately issued OW card.

I've heard it threatened alot but I do not know of an instance where it EVER actually happened.

Besides, once you have the card....you have the card. How are they going to get it back? There is no renew or expiration date on them (with the exception if GUE) There is no annual black list of "pulled cards" issued to dive operations.

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Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

I suppose if an instructor had an unusually good re pore with an agency, like if Tom Mount was your personal buddy or something you might convince him to pull someones card for some egregious action(s).

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I loaned Tom Mount some dry suit zipper lube and it was at Ginnie with OW divers nearby. Does that count?

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Originally Posted by adam0321

just curious as an ow inst can you pull someones card?

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Think of an OW card like a diploma. Just because my instructors taught me, and tested me, on all the requirements for a diploma, doesn't mean I still utilize the information or have even retained it. The diploma is still valid because it simply means that at one point in time, I met the requirements.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I loaned Tom Mount some dry suit zipper lube ...

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Did he ever give it back? :rollguy

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Think of an OW card like a diploma. Just because my instructors taught me, and tested me, on all the requirements for a diploma, doesn't mean I still utilize the information or have even retained it. The diploma is still valid because it simply means that at one point in time, I met the requirements.

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Forest is right on the money.

Building on that, OW is like basic math - fairly easy to teach and reasonably easy to retain, and most people can remember it fairly well even after long periods of disuse. But none the less, some people still suck at it and/or refuse to use it.

Cave diving is more like algebra or calculus - harder to teach, more difficult to master, can only be attempted after you master basic math and the skills involved are very perishable skills that you will lose if you do not use them fairly frequently. Ask the average college grad who passed college level algebra to solve a fairly easy quadratic equation 3 years after they passed their last algebra class and most will be hard pressed to answer it correctly, let alone efficiently without some serious thought or warm up attempts. Many won't be able to do it at all.

If we can draw an analogy with the aviation arena, consider this: A individual having trained for, and earned, their private pilot's license, understands the following:

a) Although the plane I am flying may be capable of aerobatic maneuvers, I do not have the training nor the experience to do such

b) Although the plane I am flying may have instruments for safely being flown in poor weather, I do not have the training nor the experience to do such

So the pilot learns, that although the airspace and aircraft exists to do these things in, they are avoided because the training and experience is not in place.

So too, the diver must learn that although the cave exists and the equipment may have been acquired, they do not have the training nor the experience to safely dive the cave environment.

We could also compare OW diving to cave diving to that of fixed wing flight and rotary wing flight this way:

In straight and level flight, a fixed wing pilot can take their hands off the controls and the plane will "somewhat" fly itself, albeit, undulate up and down some. The rotary wing pilot knows that if he take his hands off the cyclic and the collective and feet off the anti-torque pedals, he is going one way and that is down.

Same thing with OW versus cave diving. In OW diving you can take your mind off the dive, "let go of the controls" so to speak and not much changes. Not so in cave diving.

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Originally Posted by FW

Did he ever give it back? :rollguy

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I don't recall - I was distracted by the hot, young rebreather student with the British accent that he was with.

I was at Ginnie the weekend of the NACD safe thing. And My dive buddy and I watch a feman instructor and some of her students in the ear. On of them went right on in the ear to the cavern zone no light. And she was pushing a guy down in the hole and he really didn't what to go. His eyes where so big they filled the mask up. All you could see was the whites of his eye's. He finally got around her and came up and she put her hand out for another student to grab and she pull a girl down and she didn't like it. So they came up and went down the river behind a canoe with a dive flag on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Think of an OW card like a diploma. Just because my instructors taught me, and tested me, on all the requirements for a diploma, doesn't mean I still utilize the information or have even retained it. The diploma is still valid because it simply means that at one point in time, I met the requirements.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

Forest is right on the money.

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Shirley, I'd take offense if I were you and mistaken for an old bearded guy...

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Shirley, I'd take offense if I were you and mistaken for an old bearded guy...

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ROFL...I was waiting for Forrest to express his indignation at the mis-identification. Heck, I can hardly even grow a beard, much less aspire to Forrest's facial hair follicle superiority!


:rollguy

You both got line arrows in the avtars. I never bring up facial hair with women - it's a sure loser no matter what the facts may be.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I don't recall - I was distracted by the hot, young rebreather student with the British accent that he was with.

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want to rephrase??

and he knows shirley from forrest. must be distracted by remembering that girl. she *was* a cutie.

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Originally Posted by cavedog57

This situation seems to come up once or twice a year, but I've only got one decent story.

It happened while decoing in the Ear at Ginnie about ten or so years ago. Two OW rigged divers entered the hole and stopped at the log and chain. After some gesturing and pointing toward the cave entrance, one pulled out a small light and started for the opening. I caught the other diver's attention, wagged my hand and head in an emphatic "NO" -- he hesitated, then stopped. The first diver either didn't see my warning or ignored it and kept heading in. I caught up just as he began pulling himself through the restriction and grabbed him by the tank valve. After a few seconds of struggling, got him loose and the flow took care of the rest.

A few minutes later, after he and his buddy regained his composure on the surface, they tried again. This time I simply blocked them, shaking my head firmly "NO", and refusing to allow him to pass. I pointed to his "OW" marked wrist band, pointed to the cave, and shook my head "NO" a couple of times. After a minute or so, they finally left and I completed my deco obligation (about ten minutes).

When I surfaced they were waiting at the steps. One was pretty irate (I figured he was the guy I wrestled with) but the other was quiet. Mr. Irate started bitching loudly as I organized my stage and deco bottles, removed my fins and climbed out of the water. At the top of the steps I told him that I'd just saved their (f*#&%@g) lives and this was a pretty sorry thank you. I then suggested we head over to the office and ask my friends what they thought about this situation. Mr. Irate calmed down and they decided to go dive the Ballroom instead.

Was it the "right" thing to do? I suppose that depends on how you look at it. When Mr. Irate questioned me as to my authority to keep he and his buddy out of the cave, I simply replied that every cave diver has not only the authority but an obligation to keep OW divers from killing themselves in "our" caves. Now I'm not entirely comfortable with that position, but it did make an impression on Mr. Irate and his friend, and I would prefer that "our" caves remain open, so that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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Wow! I would have been afraid he would have a) panicked and combined with the flow, made an uncontrolled ascent and embololized b) Spit out his regulator, gotten pinned under the log and died or c) pulled out his 10" machete from his ankle and created a new cavern in my torso!
No offense, but it's not actually a crime to cave dive without being a certified cave diver. I'm pretty sure it's a crime to impersonate a law enforcement officer, or assault someone.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I loaned Tom Mount some dry suit zipper lube and it was at Ginnie with OW divers nearby. Does that count?

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If you think that makes you

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Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

if Tom Mount was your personal buddy or something

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Then you may be a stalker. :rollguy

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Originally Posted by Gene Powell

I'm pretty sure it's a crime to impersonate a law enforcement officer, or assault someone.

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How did he impersonate a law enforcement officer.... ?

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Originally Posted by HeloDriver

How did he impersonate a law enforcement officer.... ?

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The "Cave Police". Gotcha!:rollguy

this has taken off alot better then I thought

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

You both got line arrows in the avtars. I never bring up facial hair with women - it's a sure loser no matter what the facts may be.

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Ya , you better not !!!! (smile)

Thanks all : Wonderful thread.
I am up in Sterling Forest NY working on a disaster test as we speak.
It much more fun reading this thread than restoring servers. (YUCK) lol

Beano

I still remember my first time going beyond Sign. It was a well while before I've paid for instructions. Openwater divers are food for cave diving industry without them you all instructors would be sitting in chlorinated stinky pool.

yeah, all diving instructors of stinky pools chlorinations.