Petition to Address the Current Line Placement in PSSP

A meeting of all UTC (Underwater Trail Committee) members will take place on Wednesday April 6th at 7PM. I don't believe this meeting is open to the public; however a petition has been drafted in order for everyone's opinion to be heard to address the current line issues at PSSP.

Please take a moment to review the attached petition. If you would like your name added to the petition please respond to this thread with your full name and intent to be added.

If you have comments or recommendations please also post them. We are open to constructive ideas.

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Petition to Address the Current Line Placement in Peacock I

The following petition is signed by concerned cave divers, cave diving instructors and leaders from major training agencies that do not endorse the changes that have taken place in the Peacock Springs Cave system. Reel running procedures, protocols, and experience building skills are paramount values in the cave diving educational process. Post training, all cave divers must practice these skills as they continue their journey towards becoming safe, courteous and proficient overhead divers. Peacock Springs represents one of our greatest resources for cave diver education.

A great deal of this education revolves around the mastery of running primary reels and placing jumps and gaps as well as the skills associated with line entanglement, lost diver and searching for a lost buddy. Running a primary reel and doing jumps and gaps are often times the only practice a cave diver gets to help hone his or her skill set enabling them to be properly equipped to handle an actual lost diver or lost line situation.

The cave diving training agencies represented on this petition teach that proper buoyancy and trim are necessary to enter the cavern/cave environment and require that a student become extremely proficient within these parameters while properly handling a guideline prior to receiving a passing status during the educational process. If the lines are being added because of the implied environmental damage, then it appears that the issue is in the skill set of the diver not the location of the lines.
[list=1][*]Recommended Changes

1. Move the permanent gold lines to beyond the natural daylight zone at Peacock Spring cavern
2. Remove the line which connects the Crossover Tunnel to Olson goldline
3. Remove the line at Pothole Sink which connects the goldline from Peacock Spring to the goldline to Olson Sink.

[*]Reasons for Changes

1. The likelihood of a cave fatality is greatly increased by the current configuration.
2. Does not conform to primary training agency standards as stated by[list:63d454707b]
3. Denny Willis, NSS-CDS, "Their policies are not within NSS-CDS Training practices or the practices of other cave training agencies, with respect to the teaching of safe line protocol. If any NSS-CDS Instructor, and or members, has implied NSS-CDS approval, they have done so without official approval."
4. David Rhea, GUE, "Global Underwater Explorers does not endorse nor were they consulted on the changes to the Peacock Springs line system"
5. Michael O'Leary, NACD "1) it does not comply with present-day cave diving training programs and protocol, and 2) it jeopardizes the safety of all cave divers who venture into this cave system"

[*]Introduces new conservation issues within the cave system.[*]To bring this community together, with the collaboration of all cave divers, all cave diving instructors and all training agencies for harmonious solutions to the current issues[/list:o:63d454707b]
[*]Safety Concerns

1. Current configuration promotes complacency among trained cave divers by:[list:63d454707b]
2. Discouraging the use a primary guideline, which may be wrongfully adapted by divers to other systems and unfamiliar systems.
3. Routinely accepting permanent markers and 'T's without properly referencing the cave system or using their own personal confidence markers. Will the divers be able to safely exit system should something happen to these markers or the line that they are attached to?
4. Does not promote reel handling/skills/techniques which are survival skills certified cave divers will need after training if they become lost or separated from their dive buddies.
5. Impedes the practice of becoming a better cave diver, with regards to line [reel] handling, and perhaps even referencing navigational decisions on exit

[*]Allows cave divers to penetrate further into the system, which may result in only moving impact into areas less likely reached[*]A number of divers have already deviated from the main line to the Crossover Tunnel without recognizing the navigational error (validated by personal letters sent to the Park)[*]The current guideline configuration in Peacock Springs is not consist with other caves in Florida[/list:o:63d454707b]
[*]Conservation Issues

1. The line placements across Pothole sink is 8' or better above the floor. Cave divers running a gap reel at this location are not impacting the cave.
2. A negative impact to more distant sections of the cave is more likely with the current line configuration than before.
3. The impact on community/park from increased fatalities vs. the impact on the cave in an isolated area should also be considered by the line committee.

[/list:o:63d454707b]

All guidelines, line placement, and cave traffic affect the conservation of any underwater cave system. By pulling the gold line to the surface and placing line 'T's in the system the committee is making the cave more assessable to inexperienced and unqualified divers.

Signed:
Johnny Richards
Larry Green
Debra Green
Michael O'Leary
Jeff Hunter
Gary Hoadley


Heather Choat
Dustin M. Clesi, Cave Instructor (Inactive), Owner-Steamboat Dive Inn, Branford
Ronald B. Carmichael, NACD Instructor & owner, Splash Dive Center, Inc. of Alexandria, VA
Lara Hinderstein
Mike McKay CDS 53194
Dave Manning, (NACD CA1614)
Wendy Shirah
James Pate
Cristiana Ghiazza (NACD 4260)
Rick Murcar I-152
Kevin L. Jones
Cristian Pittaro
Jeff Bauer
Amani Ramahi, OH
Richard Kaplan, OH
Brett Stokes, FL
Jerry R. Nuss
Jerry Finkel
Robert Laird
William L. Huth
Michael M. Menard NSS-CDS # 6451
Bill Lester NAUI IT #39010 • NACD #IN-41 • TDI #9449 • DAN #11947
Eric Osking
James Pickar
David W. Rhea
Crystal Rygersberg
Matt Myers

Strongly disagree with the following:

1(a)

Less-strongly disagree, yet still disagree, with 1(b) and 1(c)

Reasoning follows:

2(a) - Unproven assertion. Proof by assertion doesn't wash in a real debate. There is no statistical evidence behidn this; the recent fatalities involving jump/gaps and "T"s have all had other preceeding factors that were radical violations of basic cavediving safety rules, rendering the contribution of this particular issue to the event questionable at best. Second, with regards to 1(a), this assertion is almost certainly patently false - in a zero-vis exit you're far more likely to succeed with ONE line to follow rather than the probable spider web that will be present (remember, its not just YOUR skill - its everyone else in the system at the same time!)

2(c) - Misplaced assertion without evidence. Moving lines back into the cavern zone or beyond will cause MUCH more erosion of the walls of the cave near the entrance from placements. Every placement causes erosion, no matter how slight. Ditto on jumps or gaps where placements are necessary - I've not seen, however, the exact placement of the complaints in 1(b) and 1(c), so can't comment specifically on them, only in the general sense.

2(d) - Clearly not true - there has been at least one other thread on CDF in which strong objections have been voiced to this proposal. Please do not make a claim that there is unity of position on the matter - there is not.

3(a) - Line placement should NEVER be set forth with a goal of forcing drills - rather, the sole criteria should be (1) safety, and (2) cave conservation, in that order.

3(b) - If you can't stay off the bottom how did you pass Intro? Address the problem within the agencies and their instructors - if a problem exists - rather than applying crutches.

3(c) - If you can't navigate, stay ouf of overheads. Line and cave referencing is a basic - not advanced - cavediving skill - so says all the books and classes. Again, see the 3(a) criticism.

3(d) - Huh? Jackson Blue and Little River come to mind, other than the "line to open water" issue. Second, the penetration distance limit claim is questionable - you can go way up the Peanut line without jumping - so the arguement that Intro divers (who don't carry a few extra spools) are actually limited by the gap is questionable at best.

4(a) - Any gap that requires placements (and any SECOND reel placed on the SAME gap is likely to, even if the original does not) causes erosion in the cave. Avoiding this in heavily trafficked areas is a legitimate conservation goal, as with 1(a).

4(b) - If you can't stay off the bottom.....

4(c) - A raw appeal to emotion with nothing to back it up; specifically, an allegation that "increased fatalities" will occur is an argument without basis. Show us any fatality directly traced to this sort of thing (tertiary factors don't count - once you've screwed up 400 different ways, the 401st is pretty far down the relavence list and absent it the victim would almost certainly still be dead.)

Anyway, my 2 cents.

I disagree less with the "T" and Gap than the move of the lines inside the cavern zone.

What I do strongly disagree with in all cases is appeals to emotion without facts behind them to attempt to drive a change in policy.

That this petition resorts to such appeals says, to me at least, that the underlying facts do not support the position taken and thus there is an underlying motive that is not in conformance with the prime goals of the UTC - that is, (1) safety and (2) conservation, in that order.

Neither Peacock nor any other public lands exist for the purpose of providing a forum for the profit-making enterprises of instructors and shops. While Peacock is open for such activity that does not make the UTC answerable to the desires of instructors any more than all other users of the resource.

IMHO the UTC's goal should first be safety; in order to address debate to the issue of safety you must first show how safety will be improved by presentation of facts (not claims of "increased fatalities" where none have occurred.) The practice of NOT running primaries which often comes with having the lines in the cavern zone (see Ginnie - how many primaries do you count there other than classes on an average day?) is clearly more hazardous than having a permanent "primary", and does not prevent anyone from running their own for skills practice. Further, that a spiderweb of primary lines could turn into a disaster during a zero-vis exit is a given.

Therefore, I believe that recommendation 1(a) is directly contrary to the prime directive of the UTC.

The second goal should be conservation of the resource. It is inescapable that any line placement to natural formations does permanent damage to the cave due to contact with the cave surface. Therefore, all things being equal, the recommendation of 1(a) is also in direct conflict with this part of the prime directive.

As for 1(b) and 1(c), the actual evidence presented supports leaving them alone, given the inescapable fact that placements cause cave erosion. Therefore, in order to support 1(b) and 1(c) one must show actual safety improvements from those changes - without resorting to unsupported emotional appeals.

IMHO, of course.

(No, you can't add my name to this, but in all fairness, if you're going to present the petition, you should present this counter-point as well. IMHO again, of course.)

I understood the original reason for having the gold line back beyond open water was to reduce the "attractive nuisance" hazard - OW divers would be tempted to follow the line. Peacock no longer allows OW divers, so it makes it real tough for them to follow the line at this point.
We train for things such as running a primary line because it is necessary, as most cave systems require a primary to complete a continuous guideline to open water. When a system already has that line in place it is simply not necessary to run a line. Making a leap from that fact to declare that cave divers will all suddenly forget what they are supposed to be doing is quite a stretch. Most of the cave systems in the area still require a primary, few divers, probably none, dive exclusively in the Peacock system. IMO, I think it's a non-issue.

I have to agree with the instuctors. When I was learning cavern and intro, it wasn't a cakewalk to set the primary, maintain bouyancy, use placements, etc. I, like alot of beginners at the time were struggling with the reel, bouncing off the ceiling, or was too negative trying to set the primary, and burning alot of air doing so. I have excellent trim and bouyancy now, but it did'nt suddenly happen. It took lots and lots of dives, and experience building. I feel that you can become complacent if you don't practice your skills. I know that if I have not used a reel in awhile for a jump, or primary, It don't go near as smooth as if you used it all the time, and you are saying to yourself "damn, that was a sloppy jump, I need to do it more". If you go diving all the time and not set primaries, do visual jumps etc., are you going to be polished enough to do the drills you need in a total siltout, or light failure? I don't think so.

Greetings, and HUH?

Have you guys seen Peacock on the weekends? How many primary reels do you want from daylight to the main line?

I am old enough to remember when the perm. line in Devils was past the keyhole. I have seen 3 reels in, and I was running a fourth. Picture 4 lines running through the lips.

Same at Peacock. The main line used to be at the bottom of the restriction. I have gone up the Peanut line to avoid multiple reels into the main line. And the Peanut line was way, way back, 300' or so. That was when you could go in at Olsen to avoid the crowd.

Unless training standards have changed (and they probably have) how many instructors teach exiting with several reels into the same place? Take your students, install 3 reels, have them run a fourth, have an assistant remove 2 of the three original (naturally you want two dive teams to pass you on the way out just for realism) and then have the student remove their reel. Now that's entertainment. Try a no light drill with 3 or 4 reels originating from the mainline going different directions to the surface. Up the restriction at Peacock with 4 lines in the dark? What fun. Have an assistant install a reel or two over your students. Then have the student reel out. Yee HA

As far as the Tees are concerned, if we were to adopt and teach uniform
methods of marking them, it would be better. I have no objection to removing all of them, and gapping everything. But don't tell me about safety. Even very experienced divers can miss a gap and swim off into the great beyond. (anyone else old enough to remember Bill Hurst?)

As far as "inexperienced" divers are concerned, don't certify them. If they are bad, refund their money, advise them to take up golf. We have constructed a system of incremental steps to be "full cave" certified over the last 20 or so years. However, the simple fact is you cannot stop anyone from diving beyond their level of certification, or more so, their skill level. Never have been able to. Never will.

With no intent to be smartass, a first for me, and with the greatest respect for the instructors of NSS-CDS, GUE, and of course, NACD, (We know you guys are getting rich teaching, just look at John Orlowski's fancy truck ) if you don't like the line placement , find somplace else to go. Take YOUR students to some place that you, as instructor, deem more suitable for your training needs.
You go to Peacock because its easy access and cheap.

I fully agree with this position. As a NAUI OW instructor, training is everything!!! Ken Anderson

I agree with most of what Genesis has said, and disagree with most of the points listed in the petition above. I really hope that these counterpoints are brought up in the meeting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

And the Peanut line was way, way back, 300' or so.

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If the line started 300' back, then I must have had 295' of line on my primary one day, because I had to add a jump/gap reel to reach the main line! :?

Russell

I completely disagree with the petition and feel that the points made were spurious at best. There are plenty of opportunities throughout the popular caves in FL where you must/should run a primary and countless jumps and gaps where you can "practice" those skills. In addition, those serious about their skill development can always practice in pools or OW.

Regardless of where the permanent line starts, instructors, students and those who really care about practicing their reel skills can still run a primary or gap/jump in addition to the existing permanent line.

In very popular caves such as Devils, LR and Peacock, the volume of traffic and the CF of line placement (not a good reason to enforce more lines) especially on weekends and holidays is insane. Recognize the reality that these are called popular caves for a reason and make the gold line extend close to the entrance.

Even without extended lines, connected jumps, etc. people have been going too far too fast as is painfully obvious from the condition of the caves. At worst, having the line extended 75 ft will only get those divers another 150 ft into the cave.

I applaud the training agencies concern over both the level of initial training and the need for ongoing practice over time, but Idon't believe that cutting the lines back is the answer.

If people aren't willing to practice their skills or if OW divers or others who lack sufficient training decide to follow those lines, that is a personal decision and we cannot control or protect those with no judgment.

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sludge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

And the Peanut line was way, way back, 300' or so.

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If the line started 300' back, then I must have had 295' of line on my primary one day, because I had to add a jump/gap reel to reach the main line! :?

Russell

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Russell, somewhere in the late 70's, early 80's reels shrunk. I have a original Martz pattern reel that holds 450'. The crank handle broke and I don't dive it anymore. It was heavy (I have the aluminum version, not the plexi version with the bouyancy chamber), clunky, and a pain in the a**.

Well IMHO as a newly certified Intro. to cave diver I have dove past the pothole gap and "T" many times now and as for the gaps at Olsen and the other sinks I see no problem with them I was trained not to get off the Gold line and how to use line markers. I was trained what to do and not to do at my level and I have no problem diving within my Training.

I agree with the guy who said that you can make a dive in peanut to your thirds and I have personally made it to the crossover tunnel and still had 300 psi before I hit my 6th in Doubles. Why can I make this much penatration in peanut but can't go past Pothole? I think the gaps in the sinks are fine but I know not to do do gaps to off shoot or side tunnels.

As for the line to Open water in peacock I have not forgotten how to run a reel nor will I ever forget how to but I also think what the other guy said previously was accurate as I was not taught how to exit in lights out all the way to open water with multiple reels atached to the gold line but I am sure we can all clip our reel on the line with 5 or 6 other reels and be able to tell witch one was ours correct? Well I would be able to with mine cause I have thought about this before I even thought of taking the course. So I marked mine to where I would know. But I still would not like to try it in an emergency situation and hopeing someone layed there line correctly with the other reels. I don't think this used to be a problem with peacock in the early yrs but with the traffic that I see in there when I go I think the gold line to open water is more a safety thing in the right direction. So I vote and sign to keep it like it is.

I mean come on how many accidents or close accidents or anything have we had with them like they are? I also wonder how many teams and how many dives have been made safely in there since the change? so look at the statistics and like the one guy said earlier, the Gold line is only a reference line to safe exit not a guarantee exit. I also think navigation is a must.

I was trained how to dive safe and come come safe end of story!!!!!!!
If I violate any rules that is my bad but leave them as they are.
Just my 2cents

While I think trainning is important I also think the line changes the line commitee have instituted are well thought out and an improvement to the lines in the system.

I'll be ready for that Kodak moment, when we have 10 lines tied off at the entrance to Peacock or even Orange.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

I'll be ready for that Kodak moment, when we have 10 lines tied off at the entrance to Peacock or even Orange.

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It used to happen every year at Little River durring the CDS convention when it was held there in Branford (even after they pulled the line up to the bottom of the slope where it is now).

Seemed more of a danger to me then a saftey requirement. I'd not run a line and just dodge thru the spider web.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John L.

I have to agree with the instuctors. When I was learning cavern and intro, it wasn't a cakewalk to set the primary, maintain bouyancy, use placements, etc. I, like alot of beginners at the time were struggling with the reel, bouncing off the ceiling, or was too negative trying to set the primary, and burning alot of air doing so. I have excellent trim and bouyancy now, but it did'nt suddenly happen. It took lots and lots of dives, and experience building. I feel that you can become complacent if you don't practice your skills. I know that if I have not used a reel in awhile for a jump, or primary, It don't go near as smooth as if you used it all the time, and you are saying to yourself "damn, that was a sloppy jump, I need to do it more". If you go diving all the time and not set primaries, do visual jumps etc., are you going to be polished enough to do the drills you need in a total siltout, or light failure? I don't think so.

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Safety is the primary concern of the UTC, not forcing divers to maintain their skills, this sets a precedent saying that by changing the line configuration we (all of you signing this petition) agree that this will keep divers' skills up, if a fatality occurs will you be held responsible? Maintaining skills is the individual diver's responsibility, not yours, cave instructors or any of the line commitees.

Things never change.... graphic from 2 years ago:

http://overheadtimes.com/cartoons/offtheline1.jpg

Just to add my opinion... I would be willing to sign a petition that is the opposite of all of the points presented in the petition above: please leave the lines the way they are.

I fully agree with genesis. There is nothing to prevent a diver from running a reel despite the lines being in open water. The conservation issues are arguable - every placement of a line causes cave erosion. The difference in safety and likelyhood of a fatality is arguable. If you are properly trained, the placement of the lines has no bearing on the safety of your dive -- and if anything, you would reduce the safety of a true emergency exit by increasing the complexity of navigation.

I feel removing the T at pothole would be significantly less safe because you are removing a direct path to open water. Even with a gapped line, in a zero-vis emergency exit you will now need to proceed out to the main entrance as there will be no indication to the direction to the Pothole line. Keep in mind, the direction of the arrows on the line that point to Pothole would need to be reversed because there will no longer be a continuous line to open water in Pothole in zero visibility or an emergency.

I disagree less with removing the T at crossover because it can be navigationally confusing, but it is no different than the T's in Little River.

Also, since you asked for constructive criticism, it would seem the quotes from Denny Willis and Dave Rhea are taken out of context; they only state that their agencies were not consulted in the changes. If you did not receive their approval to use them, I would suggest removing them. The original context of their messages (here on the CDF last year) was a rebuttal to a post that implied their endorsement of the changes.

I definitely hope that opposing viewpoints are discussed and considered at the meeting.

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As a compromise, why don't we rotate the placement of the lines in Peacock I every six months to keep everyone on their toes and both sides happy? (Yes it's a joke...)

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If your head's not in the game, then don't dive. Safe diving to all.
-Tim

Hey instructors think of it this way leave the line running to open water for the experienced cave divers and it will be less lines and reels on the Gold line for you to have to contend with!!!!!!!!!! Ah by George I think He's on to something. I will sign the petition to leave lines the way they are.

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody, but what if it happend to an intro diver who knows nothing about jumps and such... sounds like recipe for disaster. In my opinion people who want to keep the lines as they are can only support their opinions with reasons of laziness. So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline? So what if it takes you a minute or two longer to complete a jump because you actually have to run a gap reel. Go back to your training and stick to the rules. I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules. In conclusion, we need to stick to the standards and play by the rules so that all divers that visit these systems will be safe and able to rely on a standard operating procedure.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

The main line coming out into the openwater seems to be no problem at Peacock due to the fact that No Openwater divers are allowed. I don't see where the line coming out precludes instructors from teaching running a reel to the main line "for other systems" It's TRAINING! As far as closing the gaps within the system I think this is a BAD idea for the reason already stated. I have not seen the T's since I have not been to Peacock in a long time. Are they like LR big plastic things or just T'ed lines? I think there is a big difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody, but what if it happend to an intro diver who knows nothing about jumps and such... sounds like recipe for disaster. In my opinion people who want to keep the lines as they are can only support their opinions with reasons of laziness. So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline? So what if it takes you a minute or two longer to complete a jump because you actually have to run a gap reel. Go back to your training and stick to the rules. I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules. In conclusion, we need to stick to the standards and play by the rules so that all divers that visit these systems will be safe and able to rely on a standard operating procedure.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

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I see using the fact that you mistakenly headed down the wrong line as poor justification for changing the line configuration when the true culpirt is poor line protocol. I have no issues with moving the lines if you can back it up, the reasons listed are bullshit catch-alls which are cover-ups for the true reasons, which are even worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody, but what if it happend to an intro diver who knows nothing about jumps and such... sounds like recipe for disaster. In my opinion people who want to keep the lines as they are can only support their opinions with reasons of laziness. So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline? So what if it takes you a minute or two longer to complete a jump because you actually have to run a gap reel. Go back to your training and stick to the rules. I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules. In conclusion, we need to stick to the standards and play by the rules so that all divers that visit these systems will be safe and able to rely on a standard operating procedure.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

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This contradiction is my number one argument against changing things. I don't know who your instructor was, but I was taught that you should be aware of your surroundings at all times. Not doing so is the real laziness that you spoke of. You have to be responsible for yourself;, if you don't know where you are in a cave then you should not be in there period, regardless of how the lines are run. Other sites are teed similar to this line and you don't hear complaints there as those diving the systems take responsibility for their own actions and learn the cave as they progress further in. It should not be a race to see how far you can go on each dive. Take your time to learn the terrain and not be so damn dependent upon a line that may or may not be there the next time you pass through. The line will change much faster than the primary cave features.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody...
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

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Mainly it will happen to those who don't pay attention when they should. You basically performed a shorter version of the mistake the divers in Mexico made a little while back. Luckily you recognized it sooner than they did. Cave training covers line awareness, IMO if you end up on the wrong line it's a lack of application of training rather than any inherent problem with the line placement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline?

I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

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Matt, I just may have to send your tanks back!

Until you try to dive a location with 3 or 4 reels into the mainline, you don't know the definition of Cluster F**k. It's like going into Devils with 3 or 4 teams on deco, only with line.

Next time you are down, call me, we can try it. Run 3 primary reels into Peacock, down the restriction, and to the mainline. Try to find places to tie 3 lines off, not "disturb" the cave, whatever that means, and not build a huge mess. Try coming out. If you are concerned about new divers, have one of them come out.

Us "older" cave divers, those that came along in the 70's, gapped everything. There were few tees. No visual jumps (except Pot Hole), and until ol' Dorf came along with his damn stickey tape, no line arrows.

I have no problem gapping everything. Let's do it. Get yourself 4 or 5 spools, and go to town. I do agree that unmarked Tees and visual jumps are not good things.

Let's not choke over diver training. If you want to run lines for training I am all for it. DO IT. There is nothing preventing you from running parallel lines into Peacock as far as your reel will go, and reeling out. I trust the judgment of our instructors is good (mostly) and they are able to decide what type of training is within standards, and the best for their students.
If Peacock does not provide what they want, they should vote with their feet.

With that said, I believe the safety record at Peacock is excellent for the number of divers, and the feet of penetration done there on an annual basis. Same goes for Devils, with the added bonus of all those submarine Hell's Angels zooming around. (you know who you are)

And on a community level, overall, if you look at the number of divers, the number of locations, the number of dives and the hundreds of thousands of feet of penetration done, hours and hours of decompression done, AND with all those "end of the line" junkies, scooter jockeys, voodoo gas blenders, dive nazis, keyhole freaks, mud hoggers, gas bag users ( and you all know who you are) and take this as a whole, I just don't see the huge problems with training, certification, and dive practices.

Look at the incidents in hang gliding, motocross, rock climbing, skydiving, dating multiple women at the same time, or any other high risk sport, I think as a whole, we do pretty well.

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules.

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Matt, I am not picking on you, but you mentioned "old" divers.

I remember a time when there were no "permanent" lines in any cave. There were Ts before there were gaps. The main problem back then was there was no way to mark the Ts, so they were mosty all changed to gaps. Now that there are line arrows, there is no reason not to use to Ts.

I like the system in Mexico. Very few gaps, and well marked Ts.

I think it is time that US instructors learn how to deal with Ts, and start teaching their students how to deal with them.

There have been Ts in Little River for years, and I don't know of any problem caused by them.

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Originally Posted by FW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules.

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Matt, I am not picking on you, but you mentioned "old" divers.

I remember a time when there were no "permanent" lines in any cave.

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Forrest, wasn't Wakulla a dry cave when you started?

Just another point that nobody has brought up...

Say there are 8 reels run in a CF across the cavern zone. It happened before the lines were moved, and it still happens now because of classes. In the old configuration, you either ran your own line and tried to avoid the CF, which is rather difficult with some of the stuff I have seen, or you just gave up and visualed the thing. Today, at least you have the option of not running a line if it's already a complete mess, and still being assured you have a continuous line to open water. Which is safer?

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I am in full support of the proposed line changes, as I had discussed this with Mike O'leary a few weeks back while he was working with a group of high school cavern students I had brought down from Iowa (thanks mike!). My frist dive I headed up the peanut line and shot over the crossover tunnel and dropped a marker on the "t". The next day as the kids were in class I went back to complete the circuit and as I was swimming up the pot hole line i all of a sudden noticed I was swimming along a white line, stopped and looked back and completely missed that the line was t'd.... could happen to anybody, but what if it happend to an intro diver who knows nothing about jumps and such... sounds like recipe for disaster. In my opinion people who want to keep the lines as they are can only support their opinions with reasons of laziness. So what if there are 50 reals run into the mainline? So what if it takes you a minute or two longer to complete a jump because you actually have to run a gap reel. Go back to your training and stick to the rules. I'm sure some of the older cave divers in the community would agree that they have not been able to dive as long as they have because they started taking shortcuts and breaking the rules. In conclusion, we need to stick to the standards and play by the rules so that all divers that visit these systems will be safe and able to rely on a standard operating procedure.
-Matt Myers (iowa cave diver)

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Well I do not see or suport your theory I was trained by Mike and I was trained not to do multi directional dives or gaps or jumps or T's so I am not worried about going past my training but I am glad and like the Gold Line ran out to open water. I was real happy to see and use it the day you speak of and noticed that it was of great help and safety the day Mike was training the students you brought down as they had ruduced the Vis. in there to maybe 2ft it was the worst I have ever seen it. I will not go into that though or my thoughts on weather or not some of them should have even been signed up for the course or not. Some looked like they were straight from the pool to the cavern course. As for you not paying attention to where you were in the cave and not keeping your eyes on the Gold Line that is your bad. You say it could have happened to anyone yes I agree it could have if they did the same as you and did not pay attention to where and what they were doing. But I am glad you made it out safe and your training kicked in and took over and led you out to safety.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Look at the incidents in hang gliding, motocross, rock climbing, skydiving, dating multiple women at the same time, or any other high risk sport, I think as a whole, we do pretty well.

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Do us old guys think alike or what? :lol:

Forrest, wasn't Wakulla a dry cave when you started?

Maybe with a live Mastadon in it! <(-:} Just kidding Forrest, you can't change history!
Bless,
Kenny P.

I think the idea is to end up with the best solution for a given site taking into consideration safety, level of use, and morphology of the cave. Peacock is not some little spring off in the middle if the woods that gets maybe one or two trips a year. You don't make the same traffic and signaling considerations for a driveway connecting to a rural road as you do for the entrance to a mall.

One size does not necessarily fit all.

It seems first you should consider what you are ultimately trying to accomplish, then how best to reach that goal. Is flexibility not important?

And just for argument's sake, there is plenty of room in the entrance room at Peacock to run a line away from the main line if you just wanted to practice.

I think they should make it like Manatee Springs and only allow so many teams in at one time This will cut down on so many reels being tied off to the gold line. And then they should only allow like a max. of 20 divers or 7 3man teams. I think they should also not allow it to be used for training any longer, This will have a posative impact on cave conservation. Make it to where the only training you can do in PSSP is in Orange Grove in the open water part only. But I am sure the instructors don't want to go for that extreme measure I bet. But if they are truly concerned about the care and conservation of the cave then why don't they do something like this to help preserve the cave system?

The Underwater Trail Committee Meeting is open to all interesting parties. It will be held on wed april 6 at 7 pm at Ichetucknee State Park.
Everyone need to be at the south entrance on Highway 27. Tom Brown, the state park manager will open the gate to let us in at 7 PM. I am not sure but the Gate maybe lock behind us so being on time is important.

Jim Fishback
UTC Chairman