Instructors at fault for all the problems of cave diving?

I have noticed a trend in many of the threads I have read recently. The "Does Devil's make people rude" thread being the most recent example. It’s interesting to me that instructors ultimately get blamed for every stupid thing that someone can do while cave diving. I can think of at least a few situations where an instructor is not to blame for a cave diver's mistakes...

1) The diver is a current student in a class attempting to learn to be a good cave diver. Students tend to make mistakes. They might get in the way of exiting divers and the instructor rags them on the surface. They might create some fin marks on the wall or hand prints in the floor (at Peacock during a lights out drill for example). Perhaps they make too many of these mistakes during their course or don’t seem to be progressing and their instructor fails them. However, instructors still get blamed for all of the ‘bad cave divers’ that marked up the walls/floor (of a known training site) or got in the way of another diver.

2) The diver successfully demonstrated the skills required for cave diving and earned their cave diving certification. At some point down the road they spend a few years living up north, dealing with life issues, raising kids, or whatever. Years later the diver decides to make a trip back to cave country for some of that cave diving they have been missing. Unfortunately, now they suck at it and would be unable to pass the same cave diving course they passed 3+ years ago. “Which instructor passed this horrible diver?”

3) The diver is self centered, a know-it-all, and an all around jackass. During their cave training they behave and follow the rules because they know their instructor is watching or their instructor has already ragged on them about screwing up on a previous dive. They exceed all of the requirements and pass the course. However, now they start cave diving on their own and decide that certain rules are lame and don’t apply to them because they are so awesome. They feel that exiting divers get in the way of their own epic dive plan (which is the only dive plan that matters to them). They swear up and down that they didn’t create that hand print in the floor even though everyone saw them do it and they have clay stuck to the wrist of their wet/dry suit. The hand print was clearly already there from some other diver that got trained by a bad instructor.

I’m not saying that all cave divers have been trained well, but I am saying that many crappy cave divers have probably received good training.

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Hmmm, I disagree.

This past week at Ginnie for example.

Instructor #1 had 1 student who he seemed to be working between the Key Hole and eye all day every day with senerios going on every time I went past them. Every time the instructor made eye contact maybe a wave and often was in the process of correcting some issue with the student or demonstrating a skill for repetition. Don't know what instructor it was as they where diving the whole time.

Instructor #2 had 3 or 4 students and I never saw them get past the catacomes. This instructor did a line drill where he ran a line accross the exit into the eye, constantly cut people off or just clogged up portions of the cave and all around didn't give a rats about other divers comming and going.

Granted you have great points with the diver that takes a cave break or the diver that disregards the rules after his/her course but I believe they weed themselves out after a bit.

So I'd say there are some crappy instructors out there but I think there are a lot more good ones.

I'm still a novice anyway so YMMV.

4) The student took a class with someone else and the instructor just signed off on the card.

Not sure we can blame the instructor over that one, either.

I was a training instructor for a big company for a few years, and have been a skydiving instructor for 12 years, taught martial arts as well.

I have seen ex students do things that they would have never done in front of me. And I realized that no matter how important I make things in class.... that once they are certified they often do things the way they want, not the way they were taught.

The problem often stems from what happens AFTER they become certified. They start to dive with some folks and the "Tribal Knowledge" takes over.

For example: How many of us were taught to always run a line to open water? How many of us run a line to open water at Ginnie? I am pretty sure that each of us at one point were told to ALWAYS run a line.... But we don't always do that do we? The evidence is clear to see every weekend at the Ear. Now how is that a fault of the instructor?

I am not saying that all instructors hold the same set of standards, or even that they all follow the minimum standards.... But I am willing to bet that *most* of the instructors out there observed the students perform to the minimum standard before they passed them.

And lets not forget that things like Intro are exactly that "INTRO" and nothing more than proof that the person demonstrated the MINIMUM skills to pass a BASIC class at the TIME of the class. To expect those students to be perfect is not really reasonable.

I think its rules of %

more cave divers, the higher % of bad apples a-holes etc

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Originally Posted by fixxervi6

I think its rules of %

more cave divers, the higher % of bad apples a-holes etc

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Huh? Care to give me a reference on this "rule"?

Dude, you sound like an old fart here :)

I have seen ex students do things that they would have never done in front of me. And I realized that no matter how important I make things in class.... that once they are certified they often do things the way they want, not the way they were taught.


I'm not a cave diver (yet!) so I'm not pretending to know anything about it other than after getting my Cavern Cert, I'm hooked. And I'm sure as a new Cavern Diver I will probably tick some people off from time to time. I have no doubt that my instructor is great. That doesn't mean I won't get focused on one thing and maybe not notice something else. That isn't the instructors fault, it's mine. That's where experience comes in. If I ever make any of you mad, I apologize in advance. "Learning in Progress ALWAYS!" However, I do know a little bit about training people.

I agree that people retain what they want. I'm a USMC Drill Instructor and I run into this same topic all of the time. When a new young Marine graduates and goes out into the big bad world and does something stupid, the first thing usually asked is, "Who was your Drill Instructor?". The person asking, for some reason, fully believes that whoever the Drill Instructor was must have been a "turd" since the new Marine is screwed up. This is, more often than not, not the case. I've had friends of mine who are stationed somewhere else call me about some of my recruits. They would tell me things like their new Marine was doing something wrong and when asked about it, the new Marine would state, "I was never taught that". It's obviously an excuse as I know those things were taught. Now in these instances, they were friends of mine so they knew that the young Marine was full of it and that's why they called me. On the flip side, how many of my other former recruits , blamed their screw ups on me, by telling someone I didn't know, that I never told them or taught them that. Since those people don't know me they are likely to believe that its a breakdown in training. "The Drill Instructors these days aren't teaching them $&!+. I guess the Marine Corps is just going down hill!" If you watch the recruits, you see that they act one way in front of their DI and completely different when their DI isn't around. Once someone is taught, its up to them to apply it. You can't just run and blame the instructor all the time.
I'm not saying all Drill Instructors are perfect no more than I'm trying to say the Dive Instructors are. I also hate it when a teenager is all drugged out or whatever, "the parent must not have done their job." I mean, come on people have to learn to take responsibility for their actions and stop making excuses for them. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

Again, I'm not pretending to know anything about cave diving and I certainly am not pretending to know anything about the cave diving community and it's structure or people. I just think it is a pretty unfair, universal problem that could be attached to any situation where a trainer and trainee are involved.

At the same time, how many instructors are keeping an eye on their students?

I bump into my instructor frequently, and he always asks about my dives. He also keeps an ear open to hear from other people. If word gets around that I'm doing something, like running lines poorly and getting in people's way, he'd ask me about it.

Mine definantly would and I would never want to let her down. I'm not saying some instructors aren't to fault, I just feel that 95% of the time the instructor gets the blame unjustly because it's easy to blame them.

Mine slaped my hand during my course so I always try to play nice.I am afraid of what she would do if she heard bad things about me

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

At the same time, how many instructors are keeping an eye on their students?

I bump into my instructor frequently, and he always asks about my dives. He also keeps an ear open to hear from other people. If word gets around that I'm doing something, like running lines poorly and getting in people's way, he'd ask me about it.

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People do ignorant, stupid, mean and utterly irrational things despite their training. It is part of the human condition. We have reason and a mind, both to use and loose.

and BTW, when I bump into my old cave instructor in the cave, I pull up my knees a little more, trim out a bit further and triple check nothing is dangling. Irrational, but still.......I don't want to disappoint him.

My cavern and intro instructor was pretty clear about what happens after instruction.

"If I see you doing stupid %$^&, or hear of you doing stupid #*^$, I will pull your card!

Maybe more instructors should think this way? If the student shows a complete disregard for etiquette, he's not ready, right? If they swap gear for sidemount and can't get their trim straightened out they silt up the cave. ETC.

That being said, An instructor cannot babysit a former student. That student can make huge mistakes after class and they may never hear about it. I'm guilty of that, I had a guy bust thirds by 500 psi and I didn't call his instructor. I've even met her and maybe I should still call her.

What about an agency complaint department to handle diver violations? If a certain instructor has a high percentage of students violating the protocols and rules of the cave, they could get pulled on the carpet to answer some questions. Make it financially acceptable to turn out safe divers as well. If an instructor has few or no violations with a certain number of certs, that instructor gets an incentive for teaching a great class or only passing qualified candidates with a proper mental attitude.

If a diver gets too many violations, his/her card is canceled and gets put on a public list. They can redeem themselves by attending a refresher. I know there are a few instructors who offer refresher courses for those willing to take it. If I'm not mistaken, one even donates the proceeds to a safety fund.:clapper

Flame on.....

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Originally Posted by Meister481

My cavern and intro instructor was pretty clear about what happens after instruction.

"If I see you doing stupid %$^&, or hear of you doing stupid #*^$, I will pull your card!"

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Sounds familiar. It wasn't by any chance a short, fat guy from Georgia, was it?

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Originally Posted by Meister481

My cavern and intro instructor was pretty clear about what happens after instruction.

"If I see you doing stupid %$^&, or hear of you doing stupid #*^$, I will pull your card!

Maybe more instructors should think this way? If the student shows a complete disregard for etiquette, he's not ready, right? If they swap gear for sidemount and can't get their trim straightened out they silt up the cave. ETC.

That being said, An instructor cannot babysit a former student. That student can make huge mistakes after class and they may never hear about it. I'm guilty of that, I had a guy bust thirds by 500 psi and I didn't call his instructor. I've even met her and maybe I should still call her.

What about an agency complaint department to handle diver violations? If a certain instructor has a high percentage of students violating the protocols and rules of the cave, they could get pulled on the carpet to answer some questions. Make it financially acceptable to turn out safe divers as well. If an instructor has few or no violations with a certain number of certs, that instructor gets an incentive for teaching a great class or only passing qualified candidates with a proper mental attitude.

If a diver gets too many violations, his/her card is canceled and gets put on a public list. They can redeem themselves by attending a refresher. I know there are a few instructors who offer refresher courses for those willing to take it. If I'm not mistaken, one even donates the proceeds to a safety fund.:clapper

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Cool, put me in charge of the rules...

#1 offense is solo diving.
#2 offense is diving sidemount.
#3 offense is diving RB.
#4 offense is stuffing the long hose.
#5 offense is END's > 100 or 130ft.

Who still likes this idea? Seriously, I'm an adult, I can make my own decisions.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Cool, put me in charge of the rules...

#1 offense is solo diving.
#2 offense is diving sidemount.
#3 offense is diving RB.
#4 offense is stuffing the long hose.
#5 offense is END's > 100 or 130ft.

Who still likes this idea? Seriously, I'm an adult, I can make my own decisions.

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# 0 offence is being James.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Cool, put me in charge of the rules...

#1 offense is solo diving.
#2 offense is diving sidemount.
#3 offense is diving RB.
#4 offense is stuffing the long hose.
#5 offense is END's > 100 or 130ft.

Who still likes this idea? Seriously, I'm an adult, I can make my own decisions.

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Where do I need to send my cards? :(

If our society would look at it this way as well we wouldn't need to consider anything. But the whole "protect us from ourselves" attitude negates that.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

# 0 offence is being James.

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#0.5 is being Andrew :D

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Originally Posted by aainslie

# 0 offence is being James.

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Hey, you get the point here...we all do things our instructors might not approve of AFTER class. I bet (know) Rich does things I choose not to do, and I know I've done things he doesn't approve of either. We've had conversations about it, and can agree to disagree on a few issues. Just because he certified me as having passed the standards outlined in the NACD course outline doesn't mean that we agree on EVERYTHING.

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Originally Posted by Meister481

Where do I need to send my cards? :(

If our society would look at it this way as well we wouldn't need to consider anything. But the whole "protect us from ourselves" attitude negates that.

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Possibly, but each of us have our OWN definition of "safe", and what you see as safer might be more dangerous to me. I don't want to pay for a recertification class each time the current BOD disagrees with me. Frankly I'd just keep diving after they pulled my card, as would 99% of the people here.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Cool, put me in charge of the rules...

#1 offense is solo diving.
#2 offense is diving sidemount.
#3 offense is diving RB.
#4 offense is stuffing the long hose.
#5 offense is END's > 100 or 130ft.

Who still likes this idea? Seriously, I'm an adult, I can make my own decisions.

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Seriously:roll:

Judging by your rules you should look at the cave "gods" you subscribe to and look at which one's they broke (i.e. 1, 5 and what the heck is a long hose)

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Originally Posted by sea2summit

Seriously:roll:

Judging by your rules you should look at the cave "gods" you subscribe to and look at which one's they broke (i.e. 1, 5 and what the heck is a long hose)

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I think you missed the point of my post. We all disagree on certain things was what I was attempting to get across.

JJ gets elected one year, all SM / CCR divers lose their cards.
Andrew gets elected all BM and SCR divers lose their cards.

It's a silly plan IMO.

James - Didn't you post a picture(or someone else posted a picture) of you sidemounting at Jug Hole? :)



Think of all that awesome cave that just wouldn't be available to us if such a one track system like BM were the only allowable setup.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I think you missed the point of my post. We all disagree on certain things was what I was attempting to get across.

JJ gets elected one year, all SM / CCR divers lose their cards.
Andrew gets elected all BM and SCR divers lose their cards.

It's a silly plan IMO.

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my bad

:blackbar2

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Huh? Care to give me a reference on this "rule"?

Dude, you sound like an old fart here :)

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I'm just talkin out of my butt here, like for example (arbitriary numbers) that 45% of the human popluation are jerks, if you have 10 cave divers thats like 4 - 5 jerks, not very likely to encounter them, but if there are 1000 cave divers that means 450 are jerks and your more likely to encounter them.

I'm low on caffine

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Originally Posted by jj1987

IAndrew gets elected all BM and SCR divers lose their cards.

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Dude, I'm an anarchist at heart. If I get elected anyone who wants to gets to dive... as long as they sign their life insurance over to me prior to diving.

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Originally Posted by jj1987;102909......

JJ gets elected one year, all SM / CCR divers lose their cards.
Andrew gets elected all BM and SCR divers lose their cards.

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That makes my vote obvious. :roll:

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Huh? Care to give me a reference on this "rule"?

Dude, you sound like an old fart here :)

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The bigger the sample of people, the bigger the absolute number of a-holes. I probably account for at least 5-6 by myself.

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Originally Posted by fixxervi6

I'm just talkin out of my butt here, like for example (arbitriary numbers) that 45% of the human popluation are jerks, if you have 10 cave divers thats like 4 - 5 jerks, not very likely to encounter them, but if there are 1000 cave divers that means 450 are jerks and your more likely to encounter them.

I'm low on caffine

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BUT..............it totally depends where you meet them. In the long and wide tunnels along the mainline of Ginnie, or exiting the ear/eye while they come in...

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

James - Didn't you post a picture(or someone else posted a picture) of you sidemounting at Jug Hole? :)

Think of all that awesome cave that just wouldn't be available to us if such a one track system like BM were the only allowable setup.

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You know , I sat here for about 3 mins trying to think of something clever to say back to you on that.

But DANG , I'm drawing a BLANK !!!
(must be the BM's) rofl
Dem dere beans , ya know. (baked , I believe)

Beano (stuck in Charlotte again)

P.S. OK , it's the medication , ya got me.

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

At the same time, how many instructors are keeping an eye on their students?

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My instructor has a black box with an alarm buzzer and a red light that flashes whenever one of his former students does something they shouldn't.

It has been my earnest endeavor these past few years to avoid setting the O'Leary Alarm off!

Mike

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

My instructor has a black box with an alarm buzzer and a red light that flashes whenever one of his former students does something they shouldn't.

It has been my earnest endeavor these past few years to avoid setting the O'Leary Alarm off!

Mike

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Does it swear at you also?
(snicker)

Beano

Jean Jean Jean

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Originally Posted by jeandiver

Does it swear at you also?
(snicker)

Beano

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Not yet!

I've never heard its owner swear, either. All he needs to do to have the full attention of his students is to say, in a calm and reasonable tone, in his Brooklyn accent: "Now, let's talk about the dive." :)

Mike

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Originally Posted by jeandiver

Beano (stuck in Charlotte again)

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Jeano, if I was there I'd be eating barbecue! At Bubba's or at Carolina BBQ up the road in Statesville. The last barbecue I had was with you in Chiefland - now I'm back in the great north woods barbecue-free zone!

Sorry for the hijack - I'm hungry and contemplating another meal of hospital cafeteria food. :(

Mike

I think your instructor should make such an impression on you that you feel that they are looking over your shoulder on every dive. I know people have felt those positive effects from their high school football coaches, karate instructors, etc. It helps in certain situations to think "what would my instructor do."

It also helped me that my instructor mentioned he only lost one student: he died of a heart attack while cutting grass. I don't want to disappoint him. That is why my wife cuts the grass now.

JB

Like I just stated in the Devil's thread I don't think this is something that can be put completely on instructors. While I agree that some instructors out there should probably not be teaching, I haven't seen it as a widespread issue.

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Originally Posted by RN

Like I just stated in the Devil's thread I don't think this is something that can be put completely on instructors. While I agree that some instructors out there should probably not be teaching, I haven't seen it as a widespread issue.

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I agree, most instructors I know are great. If anyone knows of an instructor not meeting standards, report them to their agency. That is the only way to improve things.

Instructors are at fault for everything! They are all useless slackers that like to scare people, steal their masks, tangle them in lines, turn off their lights, give them mouth cooties from breathing with some stranger, and laugh at people who cant maintain buoyancy.

Yeah, instructors are at fault for everything. And lawyers, they are worthless too, and insurance salesmen, and politicians are pretty bad, and my ex wife a lot of stuff is her fault, and clowns scary ones with big feet and red hair, and used car salesmen I really did not need that Volvo, and bartenders who give you free doubles, and Florida drivers are really bad, and dive shops, and old people with long scary beards, and cats damn their smug attitudes, and all of those smiling dogs who knows when they will knock you down and rip out your throat...

But instructors are worse.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Instructors are at fault for everything! They are all useless slackers that like to scare people, steal their masks, tangle them in lines, turn off their lights, give them mouth cooties from breathing with some stranger, and laugh at people who cant maintain buoyancy.

Yeah, instructors are at fault for everything. And lawyers, they are worthless too, and insurance salesmen, and politicians are pretty bad, and my ex wife a lot of stuff is her fault, and clowns scary ones with big feet and red hair, and used car salesmen I really did not need that Volvo, and bartenders who give you free doubles, and Florida drivers are really bad, and dive shops, and old people with long scary beards, and cats damn their smug attitudes, and all of those smiling dogs who knows when they will knock you down and rip out your throat...

But instructors are worse.

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Wow, the voices must be talking to you again :rollguy

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Originally Posted by fixxervi6

I think its rules of %

more cave divers, the higher % of bad apples a-holes etc

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You and cave ranger are getting down to the root cause! Not only does the percentage cause the actual numbers to go up, but the numbers cause normally nice guys like me to turn into "SUPER A**HOLE"! During one of the gay marriage debates, some lady wrote a letter to the Gainesville Sun worried that if gays were allowed to marry the world would run out of people!:rollguy Suddenly gay marriage seemed to have a lot more up side!.:clapper

SUPER A** HOLE, aka Old Fart

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Dude, I'm an anarchist at heart. If I get elected anyone who wants to gets to dive... as long as they sign their life insurance over to me prior to diving.

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You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

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Originally Posted by b1gcountry

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

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Nice

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...0032558044.jpg

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Originally Posted by fixxervi6

I'm just talkin out of my butt here, like for example (arbitriary numbers) that 45% of the human popluation are jerks, if you have 10 cave divers thats like 4 - 5 jerks, not very likely to encounter them, but if there are 1000 cave divers that means 450 are jerks and your more likely to encounter them.

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Same can be said for the number and quality of instructors... :smt102

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Originally Posted by b1gcountry

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

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Which one - aainslie, anarchist or elected?

And I'm pretty sure the roots are an=no, archy=government. So methinks I'm OK there. In fact the common modern usage had become a bit warped.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Which one - aainslie, anarchist or elected?

And I'm pretty sure the roots are an=no, archy=government. So methinks I'm OK there. In fact the common modern usage had become a bit warped.

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Probably aainslie :rollguy
I think anarchy and elected are meant to be mutually exclusive....

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Originally Posted by FW

I think anarchy and elected are meant to be mutually exclusive....

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Andrew says, "D'oh!"

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Andrew says, "D'oh!"

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Yeah, that was exactly my reaction. I hate it when I'm the guy that misses a joke.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Yeah, that was exactly my reaction. I hate it when I'm the guy that misses a joke.

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Maybe that is why you don't get elected.....and are renegaded to anarchy


(I'd still vote for you, you are my hero)