Cave Survey Paper has arrived!

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03-05-2010 01:20 PM
rchrds

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Cave Survey Paper has arrived!

Yea! (not for my wallet.)
The cave diving survey paper that i spoke of in my last class arrived today.
For those not in the know, this is Rite in the Rain DuraRite paper (plastic sheeting) custom printed with an offset format cave survey form, and a box aligned with the station number provided for depth. It is perfect for pencil survey and sketching in underwater cave survey (which it was designed for.) It won't fall apart in the water like regular rite in the rain paper, and the form and grid paper will help you organize your data collection, particularly under adverse gas conditions. (heehee.) The back side of each sheet has a blue in color (wont reproduce on a copier) grid with 10 minor blocks per inch and two major blocks per inch.
It is designed for their smaller 6 ring binders.

It's not cheap, but cheaper than I guessed at. I will part with 7 of the packs for now (a pack is 100 sheets, shrinkwrapped) as I went through 10 packs last year surveying, so I need to have a bunch this year.

If you are interested- $30 a pack plus shipping to wherever you are.
If you want to pay by paypal, add $1.17. I like paypal. It lets me send your paper on Monday.
Drop me a PM or email with your information and we can figure out how to work the payment. I'm not a store, and I'm not making any money on this, so make it easy on me. If i'm caving with you in the next few weeks, just hold on, I'll bring it with me!

The picture of the grid looks crappy, I assure it is much more regular in person.

Jason
03-05-2010 01:34 PM
FW

Are you set up to take PayPal? PM on the way.
03-05-2010 03:23 PM
cavermatt

Ill take a pack. Ill be away from the comp until Sunday night, I'll send you money then.
That stuff sounds great.
03-05-2010 03:36 PM
aainslie

Good job Jason! I can't tell you how many times I've gotten back from a dive and thought "Wait... which distance goes with which station?" The offset design is great.

Now if only I could get back to cave country to use it... :)
03-05-2010 03:44 PM
rchrds

I can't take credit for the whole design, just the depth part, but wait until you see the material in action- it is the best thing since sliced bread for underwater survey.

...uh, no that sliced bread is good for underwater survey. Whatever.

Jason
03-05-2010 04:52 PM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by rchrds

....If you want to pay by paypal, add $1.17. I like paypal....

Not everyone knows your email :-)
03-05-2010 05:05 PM
rjack

I have something similar, works great. This stuff looks pretty good, I like the durawrite too.

Maybe I'm just spacing it, but why are there 2 boxes for azimuth between stations? Do you record both directions to ensure there's not a bend?
10-14-2010 03:53 PM
rchrds

Dang, sorry for the lack of response, I don't always get a note that someone posted- You are correct, the azimuth boxes are split for front and back azimuth, should you have the time and inclination. (or azimuth, haha.) Sorry. bad survey joke.
10-14-2010 04:17 PM
Squirrel Girl

Quote:

Originally Posted by rchrds

Dang, sorry for the lack of response, I don't always get a note that someone posted- You are correct, the azimuth boxes are split for front and back azimuth, should you have the time and inclination. (or azimuth, haha.) Sorry. bad survey joke.

I thought it was a good survey joke. LOL! :)

Didn't you say in May you were getting a giant package? Can we buy that stuff from you now?
10-14-2010 10:53 PM
L.A.

Format looks great. Just a thought here, but Kinkos or any printer could coil bind the 100 sheets for a couple of bucks so it could slip in the Dive Rite or Halcyon wet notes cover.
10-15-2010 01:55 AM
Webmaster

Coil binding is pretty sorry stuff. Get the ring binder, it's much more useful and durable that way. You can easily take the used sheets out and put fresh ones in after each trip, or add back in sheets for a particular area you're pushing (after you scan them). It also gives a more rigid platform to write on, hold pencils, compass etc....
10-15-2010 06:08 AM
rchrds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I thought it was a good survey joke. LOL! :)

Didn't you say in May you were getting a giant package? Can we buy that stuff from you now?

Getting a giant package? I HAVE a giant package. Enormous. Fantabulous. Wait a minute, what are we talking about? Do you still need some of my giant package?
10-15-2010 06:38 AM
Squirrel Girl

Quote:

Originally Posted by rchrds

Getting a giant package? I HAVE a giant package. Enormous. Fantabulous. Wait a minute, what are we talking about? Do you still need some of my giant package?

OK, I laughed a little out loud at your previous joke. I LAUGHED A LOT at this one! You slay me! You bet, baby, I *NEED* some of your giant package! I'll even PAY you for it! :)
10-15-2010 06:51 AM
sandy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

OK, I laughed a little out loud at your previous joke. I LAUGHED A LOT at this one! You slay me! You bet, baby, I *NEED* some of your giant package! I'll even PAY you for it! :)

I thought you were buying a scooter from someone else.
10-15-2010 08:21 AM
aainslie

I'd love to buy some if you're having more made.
10-15-2010 10:35 AM
L.A.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webmaster

Coil binding is pretty sorry stuff. Get the ring binder, it's much more useful and durable that way. You can easily take the used sheets out and put fresh ones in after each trip, or add back in sheets for a particular area you're pushing (after you scan them). It also gives a more rigid platform to write on, hold pencils, compass etc....

I haven't seen the ring binder for wet notes. Who makes the binder? Or, is this 'adapted' for diving from Office Depot?
10-15-2010 10:50 AM
Squirrel Girl

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A.

I haven't seen the ring binder for wet notes. Who makes the binder? Or, is this 'adapted' for diving from Office Depot?

IMO sells this one: http://www.innermountainoutfitters.n...n%20the%20Rain

It holds 100 sheets, so it says. At home I have a thick one and a thin one. I think I like the thin one better. Don't remember the number of sheets. Probably a google on Rite in the Rain will take care of things.

BTW - I was sent a link to a youtube video this morning. My favorite scene is the one where Mark (or Forrest) is flipping pages in his binder underwater:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=162cecAeSxU
10-15-2010 10:58 AM
Squirrel Girl

Here ya go:

http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/pr...2+Ring+Binders

Has both the 1/2" and 1". I like the 1/2" better.
10-15-2010 01:04 PM
rchrds

Yea, I have to agree with Barbara, the half inch binder works better in the water, I use the 1 inch binders to archive data at the house, I have a whole shelf of them full of cave data.

Andrew, I will have to get another case soon, I have been using it all up this year. I will post when that happens.

Jason
10-15-2010 01:39 PM
rchrds

As a follow on to this post, Shirley asked me a question in a private email, the answer to which I think might help some folks out. Here it is:

On 10/14/2010 4:04 PM, Shirley Kasser wrote:
> In an underwater setting, where you can't yell readings to the book holder, how do you split duties between members of the team?
>

It depends directly on the accuracy of the survey. If you are doing only compass and knotted line, only one person does all the survey, and no communication is necessary.

If you are running tape, here is the process (practice it on the surface first)

1. lead swims out to the next station with the dumb end of the tape and holds it on the station.
2. Book pulls the tape slowly, adding tension. If the tape doesn't move, she pulls until the tape is snug and reads the distance. Then releases the tape tension. Book reads azimuth and depth and records. Book then swims to lead, reeling the tape.
3. As soon as book is in sight, lead starts swimming to the next station.

There are a couple of things happening here which may not be immediately obvious:

1. Lead is completely responsible for picking stations. This can hinder you if they suck at it.
2. The team is often not in emergency action distance of each other. You are essentially solo diving. We sometimes mitigate this by having a third swimming around in the middle.
3. There is some communication happening through tape tension. If lead is not ready to have the station pulled, and book starts pulling, lead can jerk it three times to signal they need slack. If lead has gone too far and has to swim back, book may have to reel some tape up before the tape is back under tension. With a quick team (i.e. Chrissy and I) She is good at setting stations, and as soon as the tape stops unspooling I can pull tension. Usually while it is unspooling I can get the other readings done, so the last measurement at the station is distance, but this often requires three hands- one to hold the unspooling tape.

I think that is about it. If one were really fastidious, one could have lead taking back azimuths at the front stations, but I fear this might just show how inaccurate in water survey really is.

Jason
10-15-2010 01:52 PM
Squirrel Girl

Quote:

Originally Posted by rchrds

There are a couple of things happening here which may not be immediately obvious:

1. Lead is completely responsible for picking stations. This can hinder you if they suck at it.

Makes me reminisce... When I was first learning to survey I was doing a re-survey of Lower Cave in Carlsbad. I was setting points, not really knowing what I was doing. I set a station on the floor and Rich had to read the instrument by dipping his ear in a tiny pool of water! Guess that's not an issue with underwater caves! ;-)

Actually, for air-filled caves, it probably makes sense to have the lead tape practice reading instruments once or twice to understand what makes a sucky station. But I don't see that as quite so critical U/W. All you do is lay your compass along the line--anywhere within reach--holding the tape (if using one), so I don't understand that it would be quite so critical. Am I wrong, ye with vastly more experience (at least U/W) than I????
10-15-2010 02:12 PM
rchrds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Actually, for air-filled caves, it probably makes sense to have the lead tape practice reading instruments once or twice to understand what makes a sucky station. But I don't see that as quite so critical U/W. All you do is lay your compass along the line--anywhere within reach--holding the tape (if using one), so I don't understand that it would be quite so critical. Am I wrong, ye with vastly more experience (at least U/W) than I????

When I dry survey, the more experienced instrument reader goes in front to set stations and take back sights. That way I can watch the new girl and help as necessary.
I think it is VERY important for dry survey- particularly if you are trying to cover a lot of distance- A smooth operator on front station is already thinking at least one station ahead of where they are, possibly more, if there are side passages. If Chrissy is in front, she will determine if we are going to cross a room, or go around the perimeter, based on what we normally do in similar situations. I don't have to constantly move stations to plan for the next shot, and I can concentrate on sketching. In addition, lead will already have the disto numbers by the time I need them, and usually the distance measurement to back-azimuth measurement is a matter of seconds instead of minutes like it normally is with a new reader.

Underwater it is less important, but a good operator can again reduce time- Chrissy almost always hits the stations that I want- I rarely have to pull her back because she missed a significant station (consider sketching on subsequent dives) And she knows how to manage stations at the tricky areas, like where the line is run around a rounded bend instead of discrete tieoffs. Much of it depends on how the line is laid- if it is well laid with discrete tieoffs and good straight line stations, survey is easy. If the line turns in sand berms, is tied off on the ceiling, bends around long curves instead of crossing to the opposite wall, that is when your competent lead saves time.

J
07-06-2011 08:33 PM
RN

Anyone interested in getting more of this paper? I tried to order some but it's $57 and change for an minimum order of 5 packs or $35 and change a pack for 10 packs. I want 2. If we can get 8 more packs I'll place the order. I'll have to get shipping and paypal fees figured out, but count on about low $40-something with all fees included.
07-06-2011 10:14 PM
jlillest

I'm in for two, but it'll have to wait until after the 16th. By then we'll probably have the minimum.

-Jon
07-07-2011 04:04 AM
rchrds

I have a full case. $25 a pack plus shipping USPS to your house. Let me know, I will have Chrissy mail it, which incurs some slight "spouse" delay. Let me know if you want the dry, or underwater stuff (One has depth, one has inclination)

Jason
07-07-2011 06:21 AM
SR

PM sent
07-07-2011 08:00 AM
Scott

I will take a pack. Will send payment and info when I get back from DC tonight.

Scott
07-07-2011 05:39 PM
Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

I will take a pack. Will send payment and info when I get back from DC tonight.

Scott

I should have read it better. I am in for a pack when you get enough to place an order. I will keep watching or just send me a pm.
07-07-2011 06:14 PM
deepairmike

So it looks like we need to get it from Jason
07-07-2011 07:20 PM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott

I should have read it better. I am in for a pack when you get enough to place an order. I will keep watching or just send me a pm.

Jason has a whole box in stock, see post 25.
07-07-2011 08:12 PM
Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by FW

Jason has a whole box in stock, see post 25.

Sorry. Blame it on a long day driving in DC traffic. I just sent Jason a Pm to get some.
Thanks Forrest

Scott
07-07-2011 08:40 PM
jlillest

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepairmike

So it looks like we need to get it from Jason

I have enough at home to cover the expedition, but will probably order some more just because it's a great deal and I have plenty of leads to follow up on this fall.

-Jon
07-08-2011 04:11 AM
rchrds

Hey, gang, just to let you know, since I was the one who had this stuff originally printed from Rite in the Rain, (and I go through so much of it) I tend to buy it 5000 sheets at a time (that's 50 packs.) I get a price break at that volume, and I split the last order with a Missouri caver, since I can order half underwater/half dry at that price. Both types of sheet are the plastic sheeting, which completely rocks. Anyway, the prices have been going up, and at the price I charged for this set ($25 + $5 shipping to the us) I actually lose a few cents, which is alright with me, I'm not here to make any bucks, but the next orders will prolly be $5 more per pack. Just a heads up. I'm almost out of this pack already (25 packs lasted less than a year, thanks to a long Bermuda trip, and successful Tennessee fall diving season) So it will soon be time to order a new stack. Jon, if you are looking to order a bunch for your needs, and think you can ante up, perhaps we can split a 5000 sheet order.

All of those who PMd, I have sent you a response back.
Those of you thinking of PMing, please send your complete mailing address, and I will send you my paypal, and things will be all good.
If you can, when you paypal, please try to do the gift thing, or whatever it is that doesn't cause my to loose 3 of those bucks to paypal.

Thanks!

Jason