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http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s100210a.html
I feel bad for the central person in this article,but my post is related to the list that follows of diving accidents for this given period of time. The one thing I notice frequently in the list is the number of people who were hit by boats. So I am thankful I am in a cave where boats are not a primary issue. There isn't a lot of data on these accidents,but what ever happened to respecting dive flags?
Given those numbers, in that article, one could argue that lobster hunting is far more dangerous than cave diving.
Agreed!Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
Man! It was an emergency room doctor who did the hit and run accident that resulted in the loss of the diver's legs!
It makes me think of the doctor in CA who passed two cyclists, then stopped short in front of them "to teach them a lesson." One of the cyclists hit his car and busted his nose when breaking out a face-shaped hole in the window. That doc got 5 years for road rage. The "lesson" comment to the 1st police officer on the scene didn't help him any during the trial.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/...e-years_102274
What is it with these doctors who, besides the participants of the sports themselves, should be the most careful?????
The medical profession at one point paid really well so it started attracting people interested in / driven by money and prestige, not helping people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
One thing that has been noted in countries with socialized medicine over the last 30-40 years is a higher percentage of women doctors. That is because the pay is generally lower, making it a lower status profession more open to women as the good ol' boy network is less interested in limiting access.
The irony here of course is that the US has become such a litigious society that malpractice insurance is now extremely expensive, so after the insurance premiums are paid the medical profession does not pay all that well when you consider the hours and lifestyle.
The old argument has always been that a high paying profession attracts the best and the brightest, ensuring good health care. However, we now have a health care system that is so large and expensive that it struggles to maintain itself. (The major source of resistance to health care reform.) So what we have are company policies such as requiring doctors to refer so many dollars worth of tests or procedures per month to the hospital to maintain physician privledges. That results in a large percentage of uneccesary procedures and a great deal of extra expense - but that is now where physician income is generated.
The sad part of it all is that many doctors (and health care administrators) have very shady ethics and are motivated by money, not concern for patients or their fellow man. Add in the prestige factor and an over inflated ego to go with and what matters from that perspective is not whether he ran down a diver, but rather that he had a boat to run down a diver with.
I think if we had a similar number of cave divers who showed up one week per year to cave dive, we'd see a similar fatality rate. Apparently, lobster hunting, like cave diving, makes a poor one or two week per year sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcauliffe
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What bothered me most about the article is some of the wording. For example references to the Vandenberg and Oriskany being sunk to "lure" divers to the area. It sounds much more sinister than "attract". What is worse, I suspect it is not CDNN, but rather CDNN just inserting quotes from other newspaper articles and in effect reflecting a larger public impression.
Yes, it was pretty ugly. The guy would not stop claiming he did not notice anything, but when the cops/CG met him at the dock his lawyer was already on the way there. :smt013Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
I knew of Rob, but did not know him personally until after the incident. He was a good friend of my neighbor. He was an avid spearo and Florida Sportsman, (ie us locals) had a huge fundraiser for him. The good thing is that he was back in the water as soon as he got his new legs.
Oh, I'm so sorry. Its tough when you lose a friend. That's amazing that he was able to go diving again. Its an inspiration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
I have an incident to share, that could have easily resulted with me being one of those statistics, and illustrates the utter lack of respect from many of the boats in south Florida.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
I was driving off a 6 pack in Deerfield on a well known wreck that sits at about 80 feet (don’t remember which wreck, but this wreck has an adjoining reef). I was diving solo with a dive flag, and the other divers off my boat were close by with dive flags, but they had drifted off the wreck and down the adjacent reef. So my flag was the only one left close to the wreck.
A large private fishing boat pulled up, and dropped a very large anchor that landed about 30 feet from me. My flag was clearly visible, with calm seas and calm wind. My dive boat captain, who had a large dive flag clearly displayed on his boat and was close by, informed the fishing boat that he had a diver down. The person with the anchor ignored the warning, dropped the anchor, and then responded “what?” to my boat captain.
I’m not suggesting all fishing boats are filled with such disrespectful people. I have also been helped by fishing boats many times while drifting off a deep wreck on the surface with 3 knots of current and my dive boat nowhere in sight.
Some people are polite and respectful, some are not.
The most dangerous part of a deep (200 fsw) dive is the last (shallowest) 10 feet. I prefer to wait at 15 feet for my dive boat to motor up before coming to the surface.
dean
I do a bit of shore diving or kayak diving from time to time in Florida, with a dive flag. It mostly attracts boats coming over to see what's going on - they buzz by without slowing down at all and often come within ten feet of the dive flag. We are very careful surfacing! Jet skis are the worst offenders - I've had them try to take the flag and once had to surface to tell them to back off!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
-skip
Agreed, most boaters don't know the rules. I know it would piss alot of people off, but I don't understand why a state with so much boating available, doesn't make it manditory for a boaters license to be issued... Neighboring states already do it.
I've had my flag run down on several occassions in both AL and FL.
I am very much for more boater education, but let's not get the governmennt involved and use words like "mandatory". They can't enforce the laws they have already (such as those related to safe distances from dive flags).
We've had a team member hooked by fishermen fishing "on" our flag, and had our boat captain "educate" many other boaters and jet skis while we were in the water. Sadly, though, these are probably some of the same oofs that have a valid driver license, yet routinely run cyclists off the road, ignore signal lights, and drive on the shoulder at 70mph with a beer in their lap and three kids standing on the seat beside them. A mandatory boating license isn't going to change their behavior. Enforcing the existing laws concerning dive flags will, especially when it hits their wallet.
When you are on 95, do you speed when you see a police officer? Boaters obey the laws when they see a local police boat in the ocean.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Most of the boat captains are a bit shy to confront these belligerent boaters in the water, and I don’t blame them. I know of only one boat captain in South Florida that will actively and aggressively protect his divers in the water, and he is an angry “I hate everyone” type person.
Not sure what the answer is to rude behavior.
Another story of conflict at sea.
I used to dive a lot off Jacksonville Florida on a 6 pack boat called The Sea Beast with Bill. We used to go out to the Casa Blanca which sits in 110 feet 33 miles off shore at Mayport. Often the fishing boats 20 miles out would follow us, because we were obviously a dive boat and the dive boat captains know where all the wrecks are located, and the fish are often on the wrecks.
One trip to the Casa Blanca we picked up a hitch hiker fishing boat at about mile 23 that followed us for about 9 miles waiting for us to drop anchor on a wreck. Bill, having dealt with this before, slowed down and pretended to drop anchor on a decoy wreck. The fishing boat sped up, and dropped anchor right next to us before we could say “huh”? Bill then gunned his boat and went another mile to the real dive site, and dropped anchor on the Casa Blanca. The fishing boat pulled up next to us and circled us for about 10 minutes, threatening us with all sorts of hostel comments. It wasn’t until we threatened to call the coast guard that they took off.
dean
I don't think so. I can't see you pissing anyone off. You are a polite and respectful person, that may make a mistake on occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
What makes me angry is not what is an obvious mistake or an obvious lack of understanding of the rules; it is rude behavior and obvious life endangerment actions.
When someone drops an anchor that barely misses me, or when someone speeds by a dive flag, or when someone threatens our boat 33 miles out, it isn't due to a lack of understanding of the rules. It is due to rude and selfish behavior.
Maybe we should fund unmarked coast guard and police officers off shore, similar to unmarked highway patrol cars on 95?
dean
You just gotta wonder about people. The other day while we've been snowed in here around DC for days, I rode my mountain bike to the grocery store after about 4 days of not leaving the driveway. I moved closer to the center of the road to avoid some ice. A driver came up behind me, beeped at me for moving into the lane, then passed me with inches to spare, beeping the whole time.
Get OVER it, dood. Where the heck are you going in such a hurry in the Snowpocalypse?
I was in a kayak for the second time in my life along the beach at Santa Barbara and some sailboats nearly ran me over. The name of the first boat was "Mischief." The second one came w/in 6' feet and I flipped in my startled state. I could *not* figure out how to climb back on w/o the boat flipping over and whacking me in the head. So I towed the boat 1000' to shore and climbed back in. @$$hole!
I don't think laws are a bad thing. When a driver kills a cyclist, I like it when they get locked up and thrown in jail. But I am going to curb my desire to start a discussion of what is a reasonable law and what's not 'cuz I don't believe politics are a good thing to discuss on fora. Zip and lock (my lips--or fingers in this case).
I've been down to the keys for lobster mini-season -- talk about CRAZY. Last year during the two days we were down there, one diver was killed and two others were hit by boats.
We had a few boats go right over top of our dive flag..
...I'll stick with cave diving :)
It sure isn’t a Florida problem only. I feel very vulnerable dragging a dive flag around. Most boaters are ignorant – can you expect them to yield to my tiny flag when they don’t even seem to get what a permanent mooring is? I have seen boats cruise between moorings that are set on two ends of a small protected wreck – when it’s well known that it is forbidden to cruise over AND stupid because it’s shallow. This includes commercial boats that work in local area – what is the excuse?
I try to work on grass roots level. We have one good shore site where lifeguards actually protect divers and yell at every small boater, kayaker etc who go too close to a dive flags. We often hear people grumbling about it on the beach because they do not understand what is going on. (The beach has a boat launch) Every time anyone says anything negative, I try to take the time to turn to the person, and explain why we need the protection. If it is a curious 7 year old just ogling the flag, I tell why the flag is there anyway because what better advocate than that when s/he is hopping in the boat with daddy. S/he’ll make sure daddy hears about it next time they are getting too close to that dive flag out on the lake/sea.
Now that I dive with a 4th light (3 backups) and a spare mask, the only two things I really stress about in a cave is someone taking my 100% oxygen bottle at Ginnie, and the monsters that are lurking just beyond sight when I enter a cave with zero viz, such as Jail House.Quote:
Originally Posted by rpurdy
I still love to ocean dive. But I find staying below 130 feet, where boats and most other divers can't reach me, is where I feel the safest. I'd rather face a couple of bull sharks on the Northern Light at 190 feet in Key Largo then a hoard of divers coming up an anchor line with ripping current, forcing me to stay on the line.
dean
I could go on for days about rude boaters and their behavior with my former charter operation. I ran charters for 12 years here on the gulf coast near Venice, and it always amazed me how ignorant some boaters are. I kept a siren aboard my boat and would blast it at boats coming toward our dive flags. That worked about 50% of the time. I actually witnessed one of the "muscle boat" Poker Runs, with over a hundred boats racing, run right over our flags at 60-70 miles per hour! I called the Coast Guard regarding the race but they knew nothing about it. Here in Venice, where at least a thousand near off-shore dives are performed every season, it is only a matter of time before a diver gets killed by a passing boater. I got tired of the BS and sold the boat charter business this past August.
I also have NO USE for the cdnn website. A young man that was in our divemaster class was lost due to a free diving accident this past fall. My company name was headlined - as that site does with all accidents - despite the fact that this did not happen aboard our vessel or during any event with my store. That site has a hidden agenda if ever I saw one.
Cave diving has its advantages - most of the time we don't have to worry about getting our heads cut off during an ascent.
One of my all-time favorite instructors, Joe Talavera, told me that if he had to choose one kind of diving to do for the rest of his life, it'd be cave diving. I asked, "Because it's so beautiful?" And he said, "No, because it's so SIMPLE. You have a roof and a floor and walls, no current or surge, and no dependence on changing surface conditions or a losable boat . . . " There's a lot to be said for that!
Maybe 10 years ago I was diving with my brother on a dive boat out of New Port Richie. We'd done a wreck dive fairly far out and stopped to dive a shallow ledge on the way back in. While I was picking up some shells near the ledge and near the dive boat in the 50' range when I noticed movement out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look and it was a rather large baited fishhook passing by. Then I noticed more hooks passing by a bit farther away and realized that it was a boat trolling the ledge easily within 100 ft of the dive boat.
Clearly I was relaxed by the N2, because the thought that crossed my mind when I saw the hook was "Maybe I should give a pull on that hook and make them think that they've caught a fish", then I came to my senses. I didn't think much about it until I was back on the dive boat and realized what could have happened.
Paul
I agree with shirley and think they just need more enforcement of existing laws, not more rules / certifications.
I am an emergency physician and avid cyclist, as well as cave diver. That bastard in Calif. is NO colleague of mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
Indeed. Well pointed out that broad brushes paint outside the lines (does that make any sense?).Quote:
Originally Posted by divindoc
Woo Hoo by the way. Cyclist and cave diver! :clapper
Thanks - And that other bastard who ran over the diver? NO colleague of mine either! Take 'em out and shoot 'em both!Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl
It would make more sense to run them over or run them down with a boat. Shooting is a bit too quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by divindoc
Yeah - giving them some of their own "medicine" would be appropriate!Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
I can think of some things that I may have done with that anchor rode if I was diving there... especially if the fishing boat had twin screws with inboards...Quote:
Originally Posted by deanme
You could of created your own artificial reef.
For a pastor I have really bad thoughts!