Closing Caves to the Public?

I know many of you have no interest in dry caving, but some of you do. Here's a copy of a recent email I received that may be of concern.

-skip

A national organization, the Center for Biological Diversity, has filed emergency petitions that would radically affect access to caves in the continental United States, and more. In the press release are links to their formal petitions. Please take the time to fully read the petitions, especially the first, which deals most directly with cave access.

In brief, they have petitioned the federal government to close all caves and mines on federal lands within the continental U.S., designating all caves and mines on federal land within the continental United States as "significant," to promulgate a new rule defining "taking" under the Endangered Species Act that would ban traveling between any caves on public or private land, making both cavers and landowners legally liable; and to add two bat species - Eastern Small-footed, and Northern Long-eared - to the federal Endangered Species list. They cite WNS as the reason for doing all of this.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2010/bats-01-21-2010.html

As the WNS Liaison for the NSS, I believe this is an extremely serious threat from a well-funded and litigious organization, and should be responded to at all levels, including by our grottos and other internal organizations. I strongly suggest sending any correspondence to pertinent parties at the Center for Biological Diversity and IMPORTANTLY to the federal officials to whom they sent petitions. Those federal officials are listed within the petitions. The key CBD personnel are :

Mollie Matteson, Conservation Advocate, author of the material: mmatteson@biologicaldiversity.org <mailto:mmatteson@biologicaldiversity.org>
Kieran Suckling, Executive Director and founder: ksuckling@biologicaldiversity.org <mailto:ksuckling@biologicaldiversity.org>

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Peter Youngbaer
NSS WNS Liaison


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Dr. Katharina Dittmar de la Cruz
SUNY @ Buffalo
Department of Biological Sciences
109 Cooke Hall
Buffalo, NY, 14260
Tel: 716 645 4912 {NEW}
katharinad@gmail.com
kd52@buffalo.edu

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Originally Posted by skip

I know many of you have no interest in dry caving, but some of you do. Here's a copy of a recent email I received that may be of concern.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2010/bats-01-21-2010.html

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I get the impression this is a tempoary closure to address some rare bat species, and that it is only temporary?

dean

WASHINGTON— The Center for Biological Diversity today filed two emergency petitions with the federal government in an effort to stop the spread of a deadly bat disease and step up government action to save two rare bat species from extinction. The first petition asks federal agencies to close all bat caves under their jurisdiction and asks Interior Secretary Salazar to pass regulations restricting travel between bat caves under any jurisdiction. Such measures are necessary until it can be shown that people are not a vector for the newly emergent bat disease known as white-nose syndrome, and that measures to eliminate risk of spread are effective. The second petition asks for the eastern small-footed bat and the northern long-eared bat, both hit hard by white-nose syndrome, to be protected as endangered species under the federal Endangered Species Act.

and so it begins...

Dean, "temporary" closure of something by the federal government on federal lands is hardly EVER temporary...

I hope we get some steam to stop this action... if not, and it proceeds, it may have trickle down effects we do not want to see...

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Originally Posted by Tegg

and so it begins...

Dean, "temporary" closure of something by the federal government on federal lands is hardly EVER temporary...

I hope we get some steam to stop this action... if not, and it proceeds, it may have trickle down effects we do not want to see...

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I can't imagine anyone connected to this bat concern would pay attention to Peacock for example, which has no bats. Am I missing something?

dean

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Originally Posted by deanme

I can't imagine anyone connected to this bat concern would pay attention to Peacock for example, which has no bats. Am I missing something?

dean

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no. but they may have ginnie in their sights

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

no. but they may have ginnie in their sights

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On what basis? Saving bats? The only bats at Ginnie are ding bats. :?

There's bats in the "bats" lol, seriously though this isnt good news!

The biggest potential is a government ban on caving, which would include cavediving. A lot of bureaucrats don't know, or care to understand, the difference. As it is suggested now, they aren't just closing bat caves, but ALL caves.

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Originally Posted by deanme

On what basis? Saving bats? The only bats at Ginnie are ding bats. :?

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OK now that was funny!! :rollguy

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Originally Posted by FW

The biggest potential is a government ban on caving, which would include cavediving. A lot of bureaucrats don't know, or care to understand, the difference. As it is suggested now, they aren't just closing bat caves, but ALL caves.

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Exactly, "all caves on federally controlled land". They're not making the distinction between ones that are ful of water or not.

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Originally Posted by Tegg

and so it begins...

Dean, "temporary" closure of something by the federal government on federal lands is hardly EVER temporary...

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In my job I get to see first hand what a) happens in congress where good congressional intent often goes horribly wrong, and then b) what happens in the regulatory process where that "intent" is often converted by a regulatory process into something much more far reaching and much more permanant than ever intended.

For example in this case "until it can be demonstrated that humans are not a vector" would in the abscence of any completed and more importantly approved and cleared research, become a de facto permanent ban.

I could see all caves getting drug into it as, to a bureaucrat, banning access to 'all caves on federal property" meets the congressional intent of protecting "all dry caves on federal property" without the need to make case by case detemrinations on what is a dry versus wet cave and developing differing methods of enforcement.

In the event the legislation does go forward, we would at a minimum want the legislation to sundown after X (1, 2, 3, 5?) years, or when the disease disease has already spread everywhere anyway and human vector concerns are no longer an issue, in order to cover the "no research ever gets done" and/or "it cannot be demonstrated that humans are not a vector" possibilities.

And more importantly for cave diving, we need to ensure that the legislation as enacted specifically excludes flooded caves in terms of both fully flooded caves and dry portions of caves where the entrance is flooded and where consequently no bats are present (other than plastic ones hanging from the ceiling.)

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Originally Posted by FW

The biggest potential is a government ban on caving, which would include cavediving. A lot of bureaucrats don't know, or care to understand, the difference. As it is suggested now, they aren't just closing bat caves, but ALL caves.

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Exactly! And then who's going to tell the bats that they have to stay in the caves, and not roost in boxes, sheds, porches, barns, belfries, etc? Well, heck, we better close all those, too!

The thing I have learned over the last 20 years is the enviromentalists have learned to take small bites. They may start with one group, after that is complete they go after another. If the issue of the minute is dry caves, wet caves could be next. It is important we work together and avoid the "it doesn't affect me" attitude because it will affect you eventually.

I have already written my letters about how inane this is. But I think you guys are a little overly concerned regarding underwater caves.

There are many, many problems with this proposal. But it means closing Carlsbad Caverns and Mammoth Cave if they mean ALL Federal caves. There are a lot of reasons why it can't be as universal and eternal as feared in some of these posts. Nonetheless, not only would it not be effective or enforceable, it distracts from things that can be done to really help save bats from WNS.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/c..._factsheet.pdf

Q. Does the petition apply to all caves and mines in the country?
A. No. The petition addresses bat-inhabited caves and mines only. Further, the petition requests administrative closure of bat caves and mines on federal land only.

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/c..._factsheet.pdf

Q. Does the petition apply to all caves and mines in the country?
A. No. The petition addresses bat-inhabited caves and mines only. Further, the petition requests administrative closure of bat caves and mines on federal land only.

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Thankyou Barbara for your informative link! No Comment.

I'm no dry caver, but I'd be happy to send a letter. Anyone have something prepared? Otherwise, I'll just write something about protecting the bats from drowning by keeping cave divers in the wet caves and thus scaring the bats away...

But seriously, a couple of paragraphs would be great.

Cheers,
Jeff

The local grotto is writing a sample letter. When they get it done, I will post it as a reference.

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I have already written my letters about how inane this is. But I think you guys are a little overly concerned regarding underwater caves.

There are many, many problems with this proposal. But it means closing Carlsbad Caverns and Mammoth Cave if they mean ALL Federal caves. There are a lot of reasons why it can't be as universal and eternal as feared in some of these posts. Nonetheless, not only would it not be effective or enforceable, it distracts from things that can be done to really help save bats from WNS.

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Working in a federal bureaucracy and being well aware of the abiltiies and limitations of the average bureaucrat, and even worse the average political appointee, I find it hard to share your optimism.

I'd much rather proceed on the assumption they will screw it up, rather than assume they will get it right and then try to correct the problem later when bureaucratic inertia is working against you rather than for you.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

Working in a federal bureaucracy and being well aware of the abiltiies and limitations of the average bureaucrat, and even worse the average political appointee, I find it hard to share your optimism.

I'd much rather proceed on the assumption they will screw it up, rather than assume they will get it right and then try to correct the problem later when bureaucratic inertia is working against you rather than for you.

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Yes - the most dangerous animal in the world is an unelected bureaucrat with the power to promulgate and enforce regulations!

Not that the elected ones are much better, by and large, but at least we get a chance to get rid of them periodically. Getting rid of a career bureaucrat is like trying to treat a multi-drug resistant infection.

Mike

Is there a research proving that visitors stimulate the disease spread?

Many Federal dry caves w/bats are already fenced AFAIK at least down here in FL long time ago and I believe even before RNS became an issue. If that PIA organization is so powerful and well funded they should sponsor or conduct the research on RNS not to close caves.

There are habitats for bats in Peacock so it may fall under the same category as dry caves however it is not Federal land. I hope FL legislators will be smarter as in many other issues they are than feds.

Something whispers in my head that it is a conspiracy to simply make caves only accessible for "special research project" and "guided caving".

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Yes - the most dangerous animal in the world is an unelected bureaucrat with the power to promulgate and enforce regulations!

Not that the elected ones are much better, by and large, but at least we get a chance to get rid of them periodically. Getting rid of a career bureaucrat is like trying to treat a multi-drug resistant infection.

Mike

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I just got out of a staff meeting discussing the upcoming re-authorization of an existing law, where I was simultaneously one of two people in the room with any significant amount of field experience, and the only person looking at the issue with any degree of reason or consideration of the cumulative impact on people/taxpayers.

It was kind of a twilight zone moment where I was trapped in a room with a bunch of overzealous advocates hell bent on changing the law to prevent anyone from making a mistake and mis-applying the provision, with the potential that someone might be negatively impacted. But in total disregard of the reality that the other 99.9% of the people who benefit from the provision would be totally denied that benefit and would be stuck in a far worse position than the .001% that might not receive maximum benefit from the provision.

Logic, reason and actual experience, of course, totally fail to stem that tide when it comes in.

So...yes, I see the potential for an undesired lose-lose outcome with the whole bat cave closure issue.

Concur. Having worked for or around the federal government all of my adult life, if someone in the "chain" decides to interpret this as "all" caves all of us will be digging into our pockets to help pay the legal fees to take on the army of Washington DC lawyers working for the feds. While common sense says that there are no bats in Little River, common sense has never been a strong point when it comes to federal intervention.

The Center for Biological Diversity works through science, law, and creative media to secure a future for all species, great or small, hovering on the brink of extinction.


The part about Creative Media scares me. This is the kind of group that believes under no circumstances is human activity to affect other creatures.

Ok, I'll bite..what water filled caves are we talking about that are currently open on Federal lands that might be closed? My minds a blank.

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Originally Posted by curtschu

The part about Creative Media scares me. This is the kind of group that believes under no circumstances is human activity to affect other creatures.

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Yea, I seem to remember groups like this were, probably still are, trying to deem huge areas of land as "Biospheres" were no humans will be allowed to tread.

I'll just throw this out there, but had dinner with the director of Bat Conservation International the other night, and this came up- CBD has shot themselves in the foot with this proposal- apparently since publishing this, many significant investors have begun distancing themselves, apparently aware of the extremity of the position they are proposing. Not wanting to be associated with such a drastic proposal, we will see how far it goes. Just a heads up.

Jason