Eagles Nest Flow...

Hi,

I have yet to dive Eagles nest as I just recently got trimix certified. I do however have a few questions that the people of the board might be able to help me with. Not its not dive planning.... its about the flow in the nest. By refering to the Upstream and downstream sides I'm assuming that the upstream is springing and the downstream is siphoning. Is this correct? What magnitude of flow have people experianced? What about the lockwood tunnel? Also, looking at the maps it is unclear about the end of the lines. Do they just pinch off in a section too small to continue, stop with more cave ahead, or end in a room with no possible leads (please list EOL upstream, EOL downstream, EOL lockwood).

Thanks in advance!!!!

Very low, if any, flow.

As Forrest stated, there is little if any discernable flow. It is BIG cave so that serves to minimize discernability of the flow.

At some of the EOLs (upstream, downstream) it pinches down. At the Lockwood EOL it is a rubble pile -- it goes to a small bedding plane that more than likely leads to John's Pocket.

Since you are a new TRIMIX diver and new to the Nest I wouldn't think you'd be pushing EOLs on cave that averages ~260/~240.

The maps are "approximations".

The only flow that I ever noticed was while decoing in the tube. You sometimes notice the colder water coming down with tidal changes.

Either that, or last week the team above me had terrible buoyancy:smt079

Just kidding guys (If you're reading this):smt039

Cheers,

IMHO, any dive beyond the debris cone at The Nest is a very serious dive. I have a great deal of respect for the depths involved and the rate at which gas supplies diminish. Even if diving CCR technology you still have to plan for OC bailout at depth. My habit on OC is to never leave the cone with less than 300 CF of trimix gas on each diver, regardless of how far I plan on going up or downstream. Having never dived it CCR, although I plan to, I will have at least two 80AL or two 85 LP steel as BO.

If you don't know how flow relates to upstream and downstream, perhaps you want to look into less advanced sites to gain some real experience in caves...?

First, thanks for the replys. I have no plan to push the EOL's just curious. With some systems that have low flow it isn't uncommon for the tunnels to be miss labled and then kept that way for either historic sake or others references. I am quite familiar with how up stream and downstream correspond with cave systems.

I agree with outlaw caver gas goes so quickly, even when you turn on thirds by the time you are back at the debris cone and completed all your deep water stops you can be into that last third! For first dive I would plan on dropping to the cone at 140 and the going upstream a little ways depth comes quick by the time you hit the super room you should be thinking about turning. Just my advice. Have fun a great dive site. I choose 32% as my travel gas and that got me to the top of the cone. That gave me my bottom gas for the complete deep part of the dive.

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Originally Posted by Rikki Battistini

I agree with outlaw caver gas goes so quickly, even when you turn on thirds by the time you are back at the debris cone and completed all your deep water stops you can be into that last third! For first dive I would plan on dropping to the cone at 140 and the going upstream a little ways depth comes quick by the time you hit the super room you should be thinking about turning. Just my advice. Have fun a great dive site. I choose 32% as my travel gas and that got me to the top of the cone. That gave me my bottom gas for the complete deep part of the dive.

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No offense but you need to include those deep stops you are taking on back gas into your overall gas plan. If you are getting back to the debris cone and have less than 1/3 of your total gas remaining then you are not planning your gas correctly. Deep diving in particular requires extra planning and your need to pay particular attention to your gas reserves. If I were diving with you in the Nest (or anywhere for that matter) and on a non-event dive I found you with less 1/3 of your gas remaining when coming off of back gas we would have some serious discussion on the surface.

Dive safe!

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

If you don't know how flow relates to upstream and downstream, perhaps you want to look into less advanced sites to gain some real experience in caves...?

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OK, I'll bite...how the heck do you know which side of hole in the wall is "downstream" when last time I was there I could have sworn they were both springing? :smt102

It used to be experience that you knew which way to go. Downstream hits a duckunder restriction at 200 feet. If you go the other way and hit 270 with no duck under that must be upstream. This was too complicated apparently so a wise diver put little signs at the debris cone pointing divers who didn't know better which way to go.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

OK, I'll bite...how the heck do you know which side of hole in the wall is "downstream" when last time I was there I could have sworn they were both springing? :smt102

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The downstream line is tied off on the bottom (down) and the upstream line on the top (up) of their respective passages. I have no idea where their original names came from.

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Originally Posted by Ben M

The downstream line is tied off on the bottom (down) and the upstream line on the top (up) of their respective passages. I have no idea where their original names came from.

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Not sure what you described above because it makes no sense. This is the correct way to determine the direction:

When you drop down the line through the chimney you come to the 'T' located slightly to the side of the top of the debris cone. The line that goes DOWN the cone is the UPSTREAM line. The line that goes UP the towards the top of the cone is the DOWNSTREAM line. That is the correct method.

Simply put, you go "up" to go downstream and you go "down" to go upstream.

All I can say is there is a lot of mis-information posted about Eagles Nest from people who probably never actually dived it. As always, my suggestion is that if you never dived it before do the following:

1. Be full cave and at least hold an Abe Davis or Wakulla.

2. Hold advanced trimix certification and be very comfortable diving deep.

3. Find someone who has experience in the Nest and dive with them for your first couple of dives.

4. Plan your gas, overall dive plan and bailout tables with the experienced diver.

5. Turning on thirds is not necessarily the primary (or even the correct) turning factor, turning on time, which is often before thirds, is often the correct plan. At these depths, time is much more critical than at 95' in Ginnie.

6. Your safety reel should be a primary reel, not the typical safety reel. If you loose the line in the Nest you well need lots of line to find it again.

7. A few other thoughts:

a. Carry an extra mask in a pouch
b. Have at least 2 computers / bottom timers
c. Carry an extra primary light.

8. There's lots more but this reply is getting too long.

A final thought I need to say. When diving deep, especially in caves, time is critical. If you have a problem at depth and it takes 5 or 6 minutes to resolve it, your gas and deco obligations change dramatically. Those extra stressful minutes probably burned through a bunch of back gas and you've added about 30 minutes to your run time. When something goes bad deep.....you have very serious issues to deal with and hopefully you have the experience and training to resolve them and survive the dive.

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Originally Posted by cavediver27

Not sure what you described above because it makes no sense.

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That might be because James asked about a different cave. [/End Hijack]

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Originally Posted by cavediver27

3. Find someone how has experience in the Nest and dive with them for your first couple of dives.

6. Your safety reel should be a primary reel, not the typical safety reel. If you loose the line in the Nest you well need lots of line to find it again.

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Well put Dave,

I think divers should REALLY pay attention to #3 above. the Nest is not Peacock or Ginnie.

I also think that most first time nest divers never took #6 above into consideration. Again a very important point.

I still mostly dive the nest with divers that are MUCH MORE experienced in that system than I will ever be. That way they can show me where all the cool stuff and fossils are. ;)

Cheers,

Also, if you are diving wet it is highly recommended to dive with a dual bladder wing.

You are 100% right Dave on everything you say. I wish I could have pointed out the gas issue in the way you did here. My post earlier did not explain it in the way it was intended but thanks for you comments no offense taken, I am always keen on a full "debrief" after a dive with whoever I dive with.

Wow, it is amazing that very little of the question I asked actually got answered. Thank you for those of you who actually responded to the question. I explicitly put that this question isn't about planning, for the purpose of not filling this post with people on thier soap boxes explaining about deep cave dives. I know how to plan deep dives and long difficult cave dives. I have also never been one to rush a system.

I only had a few questions about the nest that some people with more experiance in there would hopefully be able to answer.

Unfortunatly, in today's cave diving community the divers arnt aware of the individual system and just feel warm and fuzzy because there is a gold line.

So back to the questions... Does anyone have any more input/observations?

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Originally Posted by karst2008

Wow, it is amazing that very little of the question I asked actually got answered. Thank you for those of you who actually responded to the question. I explicitly put that this question isn't about planning, for the purpose of not filling this post with people on thier soap boxes explaining about deep cave dives. I know how to plan deep dives and long difficult cave dives. I have also never been one to rush a system.

I only had a few questions about the nest that some people with more experiance in there would hopefully be able to answer.

Unfortunatly, in today's cave diving community the divers arnt aware of the individual system and just feel warm and fuzzy because there is a gold line.

So back to the questions... Does anyone have any more input/observations?

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Well, I just re-read your original post and it seems that just about all of your questions were basically answered already: flow, upstream, downstream, Lockwood and so on.

I would have thought you might have asked in your post about the first 500' of the system as that would seem reasonable to me. You haven't even been in the cave and yet you want to know about the end of the lines. That makes very little sense to me.

So, as you requested, here is my "input/observations": Find someone with experience in the Nest and get in several upstream and downstream dives to start to learn the system from and with them. Take it incrementally and slowly and the rest of your questions will be self answered.

Too many people who tried the "too far too fast" approach in the Nest have needed to be recovered. Take your time and live to enjoy the next dive.

If that's not what you want to hear then there isn't anything more I can say.

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Originally Posted by karst2008

Wow, it is amazing that very little of the question I asked actually got answered. Thank you for those of you who actually responded to the question. I explicitly put that this question isn't about planning, for the purpose of not filling this post with people on thier soap boxes explaining about deep cave dives. I know how to plan deep dives and long difficult cave dives. I have also never been one to rush a system.

I only had a few questions about the nest that some people with more experiance in there would hopefully be able to answer.

Unfortunatly, in today's cave diving community the divers arnt aware of the individual system and just feel warm and fuzzy because there is a gold line.

So back to the questions... Does anyone have any more input/observations?

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Maybe you should ask questions that don't sound like another guy that is going to try to kill himself.

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Originally Posted by karst2008

Wow, it is amazing that very little of the question I asked actually got answered. Thank you for those of you who actually responded to the question. I explicitly put that this question isn't about planning, for the purpose of not filling this post with people on thier soap boxes explaining about deep cave dives. I know how to plan deep dives and long difficult cave dives. I have also never been one to rush a system.

I only had a few questions about the nest that some people with more experiance in there would hopefully be able to answer.

Unfortunatly, in today's cave diving community the divers arnt aware of the individual system and just feel warm and fuzzy because there is a gold line.

So back to the questions... Does anyone have any more input/observations?

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The ones responding to your original post might just be giving you some real good advise.

You stated that you have yet dove EN and that you recently got mix certified. Then you want specific details about EOLs of the cave.

Your first Nest dive might just be a humbling experience.

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Originally Posted by bruceman

Your first Nest dive might just be a humbling experience.

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We all know it will be..............

I have dove the ball room before, just not the conduits. My questions are more of a geologic interest than a need to dive the EOL.

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Originally Posted by karst2008

I have dove the ball room before, just not the conduits. My questions are more of a geologic interest than a need to dive the EOL.

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That is an interesting twist based on the first post......

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Originally Posted by karst2008

Hi,

I have yet to dive Eagles nest as I just recently got trimix certified.

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while I have dove the ball room, I don't consider that as diving the system.... Sorry if you do and I confused you.

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Originally Posted by karst2008

Hi,

I have yet to dive Eagles nest...

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Originally Posted by karst2008

I have dove the ball room before, just not the conduits.

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How could ANYONE get confused from these two posts? :roll:

There's always more to the story. ;)

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Originally Posted by Reddiver

There's always more to the story. ;)

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That's for sure! karst2008 got caught up in a little lie and now he trying to wiggle a way around it.

I have a couple questions for you karst2008:

What is your level of cave training and who was your instructor?

What level of mix training do you have and who was your instructor?

You give no details of your training or who you actually are in your profile like the rest of us typically do.

Okay so you got me on incorrect wording.... I have had multiple dives to the ball room and the mult entrances to it from the "lake", but none of the conduits.

NSS-CDS: Full Cave: Paul back when he still owned Scuba West.

IANTD: Trimix: Nancy at divetech grand cayman.

Obviously i'm not getting any more information from this post... I'm out.

He/she is ashamed of there diving capabilities. And who they are. If you have to hide behind a screen name. My question is why????

Come on guys. Give Karst 2008 a break! I don't know him/her from the man in the moon, but I think he asked a legitimate question. Isn't that what these forums are for - asking and discussing various questions? I don't think he/she was rude or asking an unreasonable question. He never said that he was going to go try and dive it without a mentor/guide along. Some people just like to go into various situations with a little knowledge so they know what they are going to be up against.

Some days it seems like there are so many "Experts" on this forum that people are afraid to ask reasonable questions because they are going to be made to feel like idiots. Trying to prove every other post as some type of fraud or incompetent fool, does nothing to improve the stature of our on-line personalities!

Sure, I know all of us in the cave community are concerned that people don't go out and hurt themselves or worse, but stifling discussion because we are treating other people poorly is just uncalled for IMHO. In my opinion, we should welcome these types of questions without the poster being insulted.

OK, now stepping away from my soapbox and dawning my fireproof full body suit!

Regards,
Randy

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Originally Posted by Randy Thornton

Come on guys. Give Karst 2008 a break! I don't know him/her from the man in the moon, but I think he asked a legitimate question. Isn't that what these forums are for - asking and discussing various questions? I don't think he/she was rude or asking an unreasonable question. He never said that he was going to go try and dive it without a mentor/guide along. Some people just like to go into various situations with a little knowledge so they know what they are going to be up against.

Some days it seems like there are so many "Experts" on this forum that people are afraid to ask reasonable questions because they are going to be made to feel like idiots. Trying to prove every other post as some type of fraud or incompetent fool, does nothing to improve the stature of our on-line personalities!

Sure, I know all of us in the cave community are concerned that people don't go out and hurt themselves or worse, but stifling discussion because we are treating other people poorly is just uncalled for IMHO. In my opinion, we should welcome these types of questions without the poster being insulted.

OK, now stepping away from my soapbox and dawning my fireproof full body suit!

Regards,
Randy

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agreed.
thought I'd stumbled into thedecostop for a second

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Originally Posted by Randy Thornton

Come on guys. Give Karst 2008 a break! I don't know him/her from the man in the moon, but I think he asked a legitimate question. Isn't that what these forums are for - asking and discussing various questions?

OK, now stepping away from my soapbox and dawning my fireproof full body suit!

Regards,
Randy

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Randy, you are absolutely right, that being said Karst opened himself up for the general audience here by making one statement, then a directly conflicting statement after a little of the aformentioned abuse. That, in and of itself, generally leads to more 'blasting'. If one is a member of these sites, one should also know the lay of the land and 'carefully' word what he is really trying to post. Making a statement of wanting to know something, followed by seemingly (I'll use the word "Stupid" here, not meaning the person, but the 'wording' of the question in question) questions that would on the surface appear to be WAY beyond someone, who admittedly just finished Trimix to visit on the next few dives.

Unfortunately, I have also been one who does not post much other than a few smart-assed comments, albiet funny as hell, IMHO! I shall however try harder in the future to restrain myself, unless I think if something REALLY funny to say (depending on who you ask, of course!).

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

agreed.
thought I'd stumbled into thedecostop for a second

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This is the primary reason I have made the above pledge. Every since I have been on CDF, I have been treated pretty fair. The few honest things I have brought up and/or asked have been met with respectful responses. For that I am truely grateful.

Roger

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Originally Posted by karst2008

Hi,

Not its not dive planning.... its about the flow in the nest. By refering to the Upstream and downstream sides I'm assuming that the upstream is springing and the downstream is siphoning. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance!!!!

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for right now because brother if you are asking/assuming about how upstream and downstream works your cave instructor failed you. Its also not a place for the begining post cert tri mix dives. How many cave dives have you done , are you full cave certified? By all means enjoy the Nest when you are ready. Take care and dive, dive, dive....

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Originally Posted by Herbie

for right now because brother if you are asking/assuming about how upstream and downstream works your cave instructor failed you. Its also not a place for the begining post cert tri mix dives. How many cave dives have you done , are you full cave certified? By all means enjoy the Nest when you are ready. Take care and dive, dive, dive....

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Oh good lord, it's a valid question. As I made a point of earlier, "upstream & downstream" sometimes isn't really upstream and downstream. Hole in the wall often springs on both sides, but yet the name still exists. Other sites have upstream and downstream yet neither side has any noticeable flow. Knowing if a system springs or siphons noticeably would be really important to me if I were planning a dive, especially where deco is a huge part of the dive plan.

the question was a bit misleading/not clear/confusing. To me it sounded like someone who didnt know shite and was looking for info that could cause damage. Anyways any question one puts on any site runs the risk of abuse. More power to karst 2008 , like you said "Not its not dive planning...". Oh and James lets leave the Good Lord out of this....

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Oh good lord, it's a valid question. As I made a point of earlier, "upstream & downstream" sometimes isn't really upstream and downstream. Hole in the wall often springs on both sides, but yet the name still exists. Other sites have upstream and downstream yet neither side has any noticeable flow. Knowing if a system springs or siphons noticeably would be really important to me if I were planning a dive, especially where deco is a huge part of the dive plan.

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What do you do if you know nothing of a system and can't pre-plan deco to the nearest minute?

I say if someone wants to know if a cave passage has flow they should go and look for themselves.

Sure, one can use the information they get from others (maps, word of mouth, etc), but in the end the only information you know is correct is the information you gather yourself by diving a location.

Personally, I use information from others but I plan on that information being incorrect, that way I can still have a fun and safe dive.

:diver

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Originally Posted by Tegg

What do you do if you know nothing of a system and can't pre-plan deco to the nearest minute?

I say if someone wants to know if a cave passage has flow they should go and look for themselves.

Sure, one can use the information they get from others (maps, word of mouth, etc), but in the end the only information you know is correct is the information you gather yourself by diving a location.

Personally, I use information from others but I plan on that information being incorrect, that way I can still have a fun and safe dive.

:diver

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Joe,

Not all of us have a rebreather and the ability to switch from 30/30% to 15/50 on the fly (you bastard)!

As for adjusting deco, I would just have a range of tables and fudge the depth average...but I don't (and doubt I ever will) do dives big enough to justify the cost and headache of a dive computer, so I guess it's clear that I don't think deco down to the minute or exact profile is really all that important.

I guess what I was saying, is it would suck if you drove 4 hours to dive EN and had 32% in your tanks. Getting all the info you can before the dive seems to be a reasonable thing to do.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Not all of us have a rebreather and the ability to switch from 30/30% to 15/50 on the fly (you bastard)!

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What does that have to do with it?

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Originally Posted by jj1987

...but I don't (and doubt I ever will) do dives big enough to justify the cost and headache of a dive computer, so I guess it's clear that I don't think deco down to the minute or exact profile is really all that important.

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You don't need a computer to do big dives.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I guess what I was saying, is it would suck if you drove 4 hours to dive EN and had 32% in your tanks. Getting all the info you can before the dive seems to be a reasonable thing to do.

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If you show up to the Nest with 32% then you probably shouldnt be diving there.

I have no issue with people asking about info online, I do it often to help plan, but I usually do not ask about EOL when never going to a system.

Joe,
When I get back from break, Marson and I are looking to dive the nest, interested?

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Originally Posted by atedeschi

Joe,
When I get back from break, Marson and I are looking to dive the nest, interested?

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Sure... I gotta interview Marson though... :yawinkle:

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Joe,

Not all of us have a rebreather and the ability to switch from 30/30% to 15/50 on the fly (you bastard)!

As for adjusting deco, I would just have a range of tables and fudge the depth average...but I don't (and doubt I ever will) do dives big enough to justify the cost and headache of a dive computer, so I guess it's clear that I don't think deco down to the minute or exact profile is really all that important.

I guess what I was saying, is it would suck if you drove 4 hours to dive EN and had 32% in your tanks. Getting all the info you can before the dive seems to be a reasonable thing to do.

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I was talking OC.... and a cheap air computer.

When I know nothing of a system or site, I bring air and O2. Do the dive, and have navy air tables as backup.

If I come across a system that I know nothing about and I get to depths like EN, I am going to want to explore as well as I can on air, take notes, and come back with the "next step gas" and the deco mixes to go with it...

Cavediving is not always about following gold lines and knowing what is in front of you... sometimes it is about the exploration... and NOT knowing.

:)

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Originally Posted by Tegg

I was talking OC.... and a cheap air computer.

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I'm a poor college student, I can't even justify the cost of a recreational computer Joe. :(

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Cavediving is not always about following gold lines and knowing what is in front of you... sometimes it is about the exploration... and NOT knowing.

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The last cave I dove that I didn't have a map for barely went 300ft, and ended in a 100% silt out, no fun! But I'm just a tourist cave diver, while I'd love to lay line, I really don't have the motivation to do what it takes to do that these days...heck I'll never do a big enough dive to see half of the line that's already laid. :)