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I am against junk in caves, but since the Bats in Devil's Eye are on the map, and used as a navigation reference, it might disorient someone if they were removed.
There are some things that have navigational and historic value. I agree with comments about the bats, clothes hanger,stop light,spg, trash room etc..... My issue is with the introduction of new items,or copy cats acts;but the latest of notes being left at Devils with potentially urgent messages which point to a dire situation. I am all about having fun,and a good time,but I think some things need to be left out of the cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I would ask then that the above choice be a 3rd option in your poll (ie. "Remove all but historically placed/documented items" - eg. "Bats," "Coathangers" etc.)..Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Thanks.
The coat hangers are a little different, they are used to hold the line to some lead weights in the middle of the tunnel.Quote:
Originally Posted by mag3
Just say no....to cave trash. Why do we need to mess everything up?
I would say playing games in u/w caves is a bad thing. But a very few caves that "toys" isn't a bad thing in my idea. I absolutely agree that we don't want trash cluttering up our caves, but it seems in the dry cave community, there's maybe one or two caves per state (or every 3rd state) that have some mud sculptures in one room. Those seem kinda fun to me. But I certainly don't want to encourage a lot of stuff like that.
I think things that are not damaging and do not pose a risk to others are fine. The note left in Devils was not a good idea... But a note saying, "Elvis has left the cave!" I personally would find funny.
I didn't vote since there was no third option for "Funny as long as it is not dangerous or destructive."
But you might not find it funny if there were dozens, or even hundreds of that type of note cluttering up the lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
I don't think that we ought to be putting anything in the caves except line. The few historic things like the bats are OK, but in general the less stuff the better. A large part of the beauty of caves is that they're a natural phenomenon, (mostly) free from clutter, trash, and other human-caused detritus.
Mike
In my opinion anything taken into these amazing places and left behind is trash. If there were any possible way to safely go into these caves without our nylon line, plastic line arrows and cookies, I would leave them on the surface, BUT since we do want to get back to the surface.......they are a necessary evil.
We create enough impact on these sites by simply going into them. Leaving our trash inside is an insult to nature.
I believe the only thing that should be left in the cave is line, arrows and necessary dirctional markers. Even survey markers should eventually be taken out after the survey is finished.
I also think that the only historical markers are the lines and arrows left behind by the original explorers. They should never be taken out of the cave. The exception to this would old deteriorated lines, but old markers should be placed on the new lines in their original positions.
Safe diving,
Brian
This whole note business sounded uncalled for.
I love seeing survey frogs in all the different caves. The love bunny at Devils is awesome funny! I thought the geo-cashe traveling mask was really cool. Would love to have found that.
But the inflatable sex doll that was at the Henkle was in really poor taste and had to be removed and trashed. Big open mouth with "park you scooter here!"
The other thing that I don't like seeing in caves is memorial stone and plaques. The ones that are in now I think are fine. But I hate being reminded of death while my main concern is staying alive. Really would not like to see any more placed in the systems.
Small thing every once and a while are nice. They help imprint that spot and moment in time into my memory. That to me increase the cave diving experience for me.
Cheers!!
Kevin
stuff like the little skeleton hanging on the line in the crypt isn't hurting anything.
i don't get all the fuss.
having said that, the note left in devils is another thing altogether.
Everything in moderation.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I find it funny that some love the bats, some hate the bats but most seem to think keeping them there is the right thing to do..... But when they were first put there they were not landmarks, and if you remove them we will find other ways to identify where we are/were.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying to add crap just to add crap and I really do think things can be taken too far.... But a little levity in the form of a plastic skeleton, or a rubber chicken once in a while does not hurt anything.
About ten years ago we made a dive in Little River on Halloween and upon turning the corner at the Mud Tunnel line, sitting on Table Rock was a jack-o-lantern wearing a hockey mask. Now THAT was a danger to me, because I laughed so hard I almost choked!
Items in the cave - the bats, Godzilla, the skeleton, Easter eggs at Easter, a Christmas ornament here or there, Jason the jack-o-lantern, hide-the-mask - don't bother me a bit, as long as it doesn't get excessive.
The big problem is "when does it get excessive?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I agree with Brian, it is better to have nothing in the caves. I am happiest when I find a cave with no line, or other man made stuff in it. Sadly I am guilty of leaving a lot of line in caves over the years. I also have been way back in virgin caves, and found trash that had washed in through some sinkhole, like at JB.
In my opinion, it becomes excessive at a very low level - approaching zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Mike
Im just curious, but there has been much discussion on this and the wetnotes, but did no one notice the line? Or do I think its a bigger issue then it is? Its been like that for the last few weeks and from the looks the outter layer is all frayed, and I kicked myself for not posting it earlier (forgot). Just wondering.
I'm kind of going with historical as well. Godzilla in the Godzilla room, the bats at Ginnie, Barbie and the Gator at Dos Ojos.
As to notes....shouldn't it be part of the plan? Like pinning or putting a cookie on a reel being in place of a note. No trash and the last one out or however it is planned, pulls the pin/cookie.
In Mexico we have used bendy skeletons on a funny instead of a cookie, but we pull them out when we pull the reel.
Well Sludge, if it was ten years ago, it may have been my jack-o-lantern, but I didn't put the hockey mask on it. For a while painted concrete "yard art" was all the rage at Little River, Peacock and Ginnie, and it popped up all over the cave depending on the whim of whatever dive team was willing to make the effort to move it. Placed the jack-o-lantern in Little River, on Table Rock, the fall of '99 if I remember correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
The coat hanger(s) at the dog leg near the roller coaster in ginnie have been gone a while...now its a line with a screw link i think. BillQuote:
Originally Posted by FW
Fair question. How about one piece of cave trash for every 2,000 feet? :smt081Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Yep, I got the log books out - 10/31/99.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavedog57
That's another reason I love internet forums. After more than ten years I found out who placed it there. (Now if we can only find out who put the hockey mask on it!)
I voted against cave trash. However, someone mentioned something about the Trash Room in JB. The trash there was not placed there by cave divers. While some of the items may have been relocated, they originally made it into the cave through an old sink that no longer exists. That has significance to the system and should stay where it is.
so trash in a system like telford or lafayette blue = get it outta there!
if the sink collapses, it becomes significant trash and we have to leave it in the cave?
got it
:D
I think that anyone who read the note at Ginnie would have got a chuckle out of it too even though it was dry humor :). I saw it on the line at the hill 400 jump on my second dive Friday. People who say it was a dire message about a lost diver obviously didn't read it or are too young to know what a match is. The note said something like "diver has left the system and left a redundant light source behind for anyone who needs it(two waterproof matches tied to note) and not to strike too close to line". While I am against anything in the cave system, some humor can be entertaining as long as it's removed in a timely manner. I saw cookies and arrows on the cave floor and more scooter marks than all the trash combined by a large margin. The biggest problem with things in the system are the divers with poor skills bouncing off the floor and ceiling attempting to look at the items or read stuff people left behind. I agree there needs to be a third option on the poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
First time I saw the bats, I thought it was hilarious. I had never heard of them (must have had my head in the mud), so coming around the corner and seeing these things hanging on the line really made the dive something unique.
However, I can imagine if this forum was around when those were first put in... What would the uproar have sounded like? But now they've been in there for years, so they're historical and accepted. I'm having a hard time getting my head around this.
How long does something have to be in the cave before it is deemed historical and accepted? Or if I put something in and declare it will be historical, should we leave it?
I really don't mind those things. I'm just bored, ready to go home and asking too many questions. (however, as already said plenty of times - certain notes do NOT need to be in there).
As long as we are talking about toys, anyone know what happened to this little guy. Used to be in Little River, havent seen it for a couple years.
I'm going to guess you don't know a whole lot about Jackson Blue. AFAIK the trash was already there the first time anyone swam through there and the sink hole was not. The only indication there was a sink hole there i the trash that starts 2200' in the system. There are lots of areas in Jackson that look like they could have formerly been sinks, but that's the only one that has is definitive. Therefore, it has historical significance because it tells us something about the system we wouldn't otherwise know. Your examples wouldn't do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
Not that I have much business talking about this, seeing as I have been a cave diver for less than 10 years, but if this conversation was taking place when the bats were put in, or the jack-o-lantern, or any other items that were not there by nature, would that not be considered trash? I am not saying that the note left was not bad, but trash is trash, historical or not. Dive safe and enjoy everyone, that is why we are in this sport.
There were other wet notes left on hill 400 and at the park bench, that did not have that written on it, or matches. I can't remember what was exactly written on them, something like J, left the cave, XXX... I can't remember who the names were, but they were attached to double enders with red tape around the middle.Quote:
Originally Posted by wings-n-wheels
I vote against trash in the caves!
Does that mean I can't dive anymore? :smt040Quote:
Originally Posted by NEON
Hard to vote on this if you don't think it belongs, but also don't think it is "potentially dangerous." why is that there? Something doesn't have to be dangerous to not be liked.
No vote due to poor wording.
Chris
I think we need to keep our eye on the ball here. I'm not *nearly* as worried about bats, godzilla, frogs, and skeletons as I am about hand marks, fin marks, and scooter drag marks. In my opinion the toys are insignificant compared to the rampant squirrel tracks.
Brian
Well said BrianQuote:
Originally Posted by Benthic
Yeah, that's what I meant to say about twenty posts ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benthic
I agree. I was very impressed with the new floors in many systems after the last flood, but on the next trip down there were handprints, fin marks, shroud marks, etc everywhere, and not just in the "sacrificial" areas of the traditional training caves. It made we wonder where all these sucky divers came from and who trained them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benthic
Based on my own white trailer trash roots, I have to say I think that kind of trash in caves is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
Hell, now I am a Washington Bureaucrat and that is something to truly be ashamed of, so don't tell nobody.
I wish you hadn't told ME!Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster