Goodenough Springs Exploration Project - Notice of Complaint

November 13, 2009

Goodenough Springs Exploration Project (GSEP): Notice of complaint against Texas divers Steve Cushman and Colin Irons.

The GSEP, a formally chartered cave diving research and exploration group, has conducted work at Goodenough Springs near Del Rio, TX since the year 2000. This site is located on federally-owned property and is open to public access.

Over a ten-year period, our volunteer, privately-funded organization has incurred direct expenses in excess of $100,000.00 to conduct exploration and research activities at Goodenough Springs. Our project has also installed and maintained an extensive mooring system that is available for public use at this site.

The GSEP has worked closely with many scientific and governmental organizations including: Texas State University, Texas A&M University, Texas Water Development Board, Edwards Aquifer Authority, City of Del Rio, Texas, Texas Speleological Survey, National Speleological Society, and the National Association of Cave Divers. We provide water sampling, flow/velocity measurements, and year-round instrumentation/monitoring at no cost to interested agencies. Our work has been published in the Hydrogeology Journal and noted in the History of Texas Caving as well as recreational publications, including "Scuba Diving Magazine.” The GSEP was awarded the 2009 Exploration Award by the NSS-CDS for its work at Goodenough Springs.

Currently, the GSEP maintains a roster of twenty active participants and more than three dozen individual divers have participated over the life of the project. During our project's existence, we have collectively conducted more than 1,000 dives in this cave system. We continue to bring new participants into our project as need arises and space is available on the team's two full-time dive vessels.

The GSEP Board of Directors regrets to announce that we were compelled to temporarily suspend diving operations and remove elements of our equipment to prevent what we consider as a serious hazard to our project activities at Goodenough Springs. Our project was informed by reliable sources that a group led by Texas divers Steve Cushman and Colin Irons planned to use GSEP-owned equipment and resources to pursue a ‘deep’ dive during our ongoing research-related efforts. This information was also verified by postings on participants' Facebook pages. Additionally, the sources expressed serious concerns that the Cushman/Irons group’s stated intention to conduct a dive to 600 feet of depth could likely end in injury or death to the principal participants.

Historically, the GSEP has made no efforts to prohibit persons from diving at the site; GPS coordinates of the spring’s location and other relevant information are posted on our project website. When recently contacted by Mr. Irons, the GSEP provided cooperative responses to his inquires for other site-specific information; depth references for significant cave features were provided as well as photo-documentation of sub-surface topography.
Because our Board of Directors regarded the above-named group’s limited familiarity of this high-flow cave system to be inadequate for their proposed dive, the GSEP deemed it incumbent to implement preemptive actions to protect our project interests. Particularly in light of current site conditions we cannot, in clear conscience, provide even tacit support to such a grossly imprudent dive objective.

Poorly-conceived dives, such as the one proposed by Messrs. Cushman and Irons, jeopardize the continued access of the entire diving public. Local agents of the federal government have previously shown little tolerance for diving-related accidents and have prohibited all diving at a nearby submerged dam site following a fatality there.

The GSEP membership is disappointed and insulted by the behavior of these individuals. Their thoughtless interference has impeded our ability to continue our planned activities and is responsible for the temporary suspension of research and exploration efforts at Goodenough Springs.

Encroachment upon the activities of established dive projects has long been considered unacceptable by the established cave diving community. Therefore, the GSEP respectfully solicits your cooperation in condemning the selfish and ill-advised actions of the parties named in this complaint. We are confident that you support our mission and thank you in advance for helping to bring full public scrutiny to this incident.

Respectfully,
Chuck Noe - Director GSEP
GSEP Board of Directors - Robert Laird, Rick Aurich, Mike Gault, Gregg Tatum
PO Box 84194, Pearland, TX 77584

cc:
National Speleological Society - Cave Diving Section
National Association of Cave Divers
Technical Diving International
International Association of Nitrox and Technical Divers
Global Underwater Explorers
International Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery
Texas Aquifer Research Alliance
Public Dive Forums - TheDecoStop.com, Cavediver.net, ScubaBoard.com

I would like to see the map of this system.

Let them push it. If they are qualified. Diving is always full of risks. The greater the risks some times the greater the reward. Sounds like virgin cave to me.

I can see their point. The potential benefit of doing a 600' dive is minimal in the long view of things. The cave has been there a long toime and is not going anywhere, so a slow progressive exploration and mapping makes a great deal of sense. On thre other hand the risk of a fatality on a 600' with not much more purpose than to go deep in the cave, carrier with it the rteal rtisk that the federal agecy(ies) who oversee the site may decide to ban all dive access resulting in the loss of the potential to fully explore and map the site.

The couple of the previous posts seem to support their contention that access to the site needs to be limited to keep the morons at bay and do not reflect well on the cave community. There is also the issue of the team planning to use GSEP equipment with out permission, and that is not ok anywhere.

Maybe the divers under protest will make their case here for us to read their reasoning and their side.

To all those voicing concerns about the complaint filed against two Texas cave divers by GSEP. We offer this official response to their complaint.

First, we offer you the attached email string between Chuck Noe and Colin Irons. The emails will help explain the deception Mr. Noe as perpetrated against members of the so called disrespectful dive team (herein referred to as the “team”). It would be helpful to take the time and read the emails before continuing on with this post. For your convenience they are attached in the pages following this letter.
In defense to the “team” many emails have transpired between the two groups in regards to dive activities at Good Enough Springs. While it is blatantly oblivious the “team” had the full okay to dive in the system which GSEP calls a “public accessible site”, the team made every effort to coordinate with GSEP so their project was not disrupted. We were ready to stand down and cancel our plans should they have become an interference with GSEP diving. We draw your attention to the email of November 16, 2009 in which Mr. Noe reverts to name calling and out right slander of the two team members he refers to as “principle members.” His writings are very untrue and are not substantiate by any fact. In fact, the GSEP website specifically implies the site as” public access.” They even go so far as to give the exact coordinates to its location. Furthermore, Mr. Noe speaks of bragging about cave diving. While we are as proud of our dive achievements as any other dive team out there, we certainly have not created a website and posted pictures of cylinders with marking of MOD 627’ on them. We take this as “bragging” since it tends to leave the ordinary diver with the assumption the divers had intentions to dive to 627 feet. More disturbing to us is Mr. Noe’s comments about the “team” using GSEP equipment. The email string directly references the mooring system in great detail and how the “team” should use the mooring lines as to minimize damage to the system and the mooring. Yet the most disturbing of all is the reference in the complaint of GSEP having to suspend all diving activities due to the total disrespect of the “team”, while the email specifically states the efforts of GSEP will not be affected by the immature divers of the “team.” There was a time I respected Chuck Noe and was amazed at his efforts. My respect and amazement grew the first time I dove Good Enough Springs. However, Mr. Noe has decided his very existence has been threatened and has lowered his standards to the name calling and posting of unqualified information. His actions have shattered my respect of him as a true professional and fellow cave diver. While we will always hold the highest regard for GSEP and its goals at GS, it is my opinion; Mr. Noe has crossed the line into claiming Texas as his own. Sure Texas has underwater caves but they are numbered in quantity. We could go to Florida or Mexico but this really just does not assist with the preservation of the Texas systems. While we can gain understanding of different systems and even apply what we know. It is the Texas systems that offer unique insight to the fundamental goals we all have in mind.
It is my belief the emails shed great light on the deceptive nature of GSEP and its members. While the “team” has no issues with GSEP making the rash decision to remove its equipment, we can not be held responsible for the discontinuing of GSEP efforts in Good Enough. AS you read the emails, you should take note of the fact GSEP suspends all diving activities during the winter months every year due to water conditions.
The “team” has gone to just as great of efforts to protect the fragile aquifer systems as GSEP has done. While we do not seek national recognition or popularity, we do have the same end result. Preservation of what limited resources we have left through continued volunteer efforts and extensive research and training. We notice Mr. Noe making reference to the many agencies he works with in his cave diving efforts. What we miss here is exactly how much training and what qualifications the team possesses. Our team consists of a Course Director, several tech instructors, an archeologist and has connections with the University of Texas and a biological research team for the study of aquatic species and specimens. Our team has tens of thousands of hours in caves. Our work is also based on research and study of specimens in order to bring about greater public awareness of how fragile these systems really are. Unlike GSEP, we would welcome any “qualified” dive team to learn from us. The ability to observe the methods used in cave diving exploration, mapping and research and apply such knowledge is the fundamentals essential to the goal of all cave diving teams. We also welcome anyone who needs our abilities to utilize them for their studies.
Bottom line is the information gathered on these dives. Is this proprietary information or a wealth of knowledge that should be shared for the betterment of the entire Planet we call Earth?

Steve Cushman
Director AsA

Emails

From: Colin irons [mailto:ironmanservice1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 7:21 PM
To: Chuck Noe
Subject: Good Enough Springs

Hello Chuck,

I finally made it out to Good Enough a few weeks back and wow what an impressive system.

I've got a group of guys planning another trip for 11-13 through 11-15 with the majority of our activities on the 14TH. I mentioned this because we want to avoid interfering with any dives you may have planned.

Please let me know if this will be a problem so if needed we can make alternative plans before its too late.

Colin Irons

--- On Wed, 10/28/09, Chuck Noe <hcd@cnsales.com> wrote:

From: Chuck Noe <hcd@cnsales.com>
Subject: RE: Good Enough Springs
To: "'colin irons'" <ironmanservice1@yahoo.com>
Cc: goodenoughers-bod@cavediver.com
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 9:44 AM
Hi Collin,

Thanks for the heads up. In fact we’ve got a group of 6 or so who will be on site for our final dives of the season on Saturday and Sunday the 14th and 15th as well. We normally wouldn’t dive Goodenough this late in the year but we’ve had some scheduling conflicts that pushed us back.

Our two primary Datalab Hydrosonde units have a finite battery life and we absolutely HAVE to get them swapped out before winter sets in. These are the instruments that we use to pinpoint the change in flow due to rain events. Other than that we don’t have any other critical tasks to perform. We plan to get in and out as quick as absolutely possible. And if things go as planned on Saturday we may take Sunday off; our only objective is to swap instruments.

There’s no conflict or reason that we all can’t conduct dives on the same days, so feel free to continue with your plans. We always share the mooring with other divers when on site, usually asking them to tie off on our stern. We will only be using our one 24’ dive boat this time and unless you’re in a larger vessel we would cordially ask that you allow us the first mooring position. The mooring is plenty strong to support 2 or 3 boats now that we have installed the 2nd anchor and new stainless-steel chain.

I’m sorry that you caught the system when the flow was down. In July we measured the water velocity in the restriction to be only 60 cm/s using a Doppler flow-meter provided by Texas State University. That is less than half the typical 120-140 cm/s that we last recorded in 2005. At 60 cm/s (~118 fpm) the flow is still formidable, but when the aquifer is full passing the restriction becomes an exercise in sheer determination. Hopefully you’ll get to see it in that state again soon.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to make all our dives go more smoothly. We typically load and launch at around 9:00 a.m. following breakfast and fueling up. And my cell number is 281-571-3483 if you’d like to give me a ring that weekend about anything.

Chuck
From: colin irons [mailto:ironmanservice1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 7:52 PM
To: Chuck Noe
Subject: RE: Good Enough Springs

Chuck,

Glad to hear there should be no problem diving on the same day.

We currently have 8 divers scheduled to dive that day and we plan on bringing out a 22 foot boat and a 50 foot house boat. We will likely arrive on site Friday and stay put until Sunday morning. Do you think the house boat will be too much of a strain on the mooring ? We can make alternative mooring arrangements if needed but pulling up and tying off sure sounds better as long as it causes no problems.

Your task definitely takes priority and all of GSEP's work is appreciated.Let us know of any procedures or steps we can take to stay out of the way.

When it comes to the flow at Good Enough , I always want the aquifer to be healthy but I can't say that a flow of 240fpm is something I would look forward to. I suppose all you can do is take it how it comes and hold on tight.

Colin Irons
--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Chuck Noe <hcd@cnsales.com> wrote:

From: Chuck Noe <hcd@cnsales.com>
Subject: RE: Good Enough Springs
To: "'colin irons'" <ironmanservice1@yahoo.com>
Cc: goodenoughers-bod@cavediver.com
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 11:43 AM
Colin,

Sounds like fun. I hope the weather cooperates for you.

I’m glad you mentioned the houseboat. The only problem we’ve ever had with the mooring is when a rental houseboat was on it (and pulled it out of the cave and into the lake). In calm or light-wind conditions it’s likely okay but when the winds reach the 12-15 mph+ range such a large vessel places tremendous strain on the entire system. It’s simply not designed to withstand that sort of stress. When the wind is blowing from the south or south-east (as is typical throughout the summer) the chain is pulled tight against the cliff face (which helps) but in a north wind boats at the surface pull directly against the concrete anchors in the cave entrance.

Also note that even when the wind is favorable the upper section of the mooring is only rated for a maximum working load of 1,500#. The chain itself is rated for 2,000# but the upper shackles are 5/16” and are the weakest part of the system. After having just spent over $2,500.00 in materials cost and a considerable number of man-hours installing the new mooring we would be very disappointed if it were to fail due to an overload situation. Please use very critical judgment in any mooring decision regarding the houseboat.

Actually we would greatly prefer that you use conventional “anchoring” techniques while on site at Goodenough with the houseboat. There is very little damage that could be done by anchoring either over the cliff or in the lakebed or old stream-bed. We do have one small data recorder on a stake several feet outside the cave opening but I’d much rather you destroy that than risk breaking our brand new mooring system.

In any case we’ll be arriving on site sometime early/mid-morning on Saturday and will coordinate with you for access at that time. As I mentioned we’ll likely have no more than 6 divers who will engage in 3 successive dives. We’ll be in and out in a matter of a few hours then you’ll have the site all to yourselves again. Sunday is still up in the air, but it’s very possible that we’ll not even be on site depending on how things go Saturday.

See you soon.

Chuck


CC: GSEP – Board of Directors


From: colin irons [mailto:ironmanservice1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 5:52 AM
To: Chuck Noe
Subject: RE: Good Enough Springs

Chuck,

We will definitely steer clear of mooring the house boat on to your buoy and stick with regular anchors. Let me know if there is anything else we can do to avoid causing problems .



Colin Irons
From: "Chuck Noe" <hcd@cnsales.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:22:41 -0600
To: 'colin irons'<ironmanservice1@yahoo.com>
Cc: <goodenoughers-bod@cavediver.com>
Subject: RE: Good Enough Springs

Thank you very much Colin. We really appreciate your understanding and cooperation.

Depending on wind direction there are a number of good options for anchoring at the site. I have attached a pre-inundation photo for your reference showing the layout. I would appreciate your not posting this publicly as the original does not belong to me, but feel free to print out several copies for your divers to reference.

See you on Saturday.

Chuck


CC: GSEP - BOD
From: ironmanservice1@yahoo.com [mailto:ironmanservice1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:04 PM
To: Chuck Noe
Cc: goodenoughers-bod@cavediver.com
Subject: Re: Good Enough Springs

Chuck,

We just left Amistad and had a great trip. We didn't see you guys on Saturday so I hope all is well. Thanks for the great info . We had some fantastic dives.

I do have some bad news for GSEP. Your mooring chain is gone as well as some of your ropes inside the system. We were able to run an ascent line from the concrete filled tire and use traditional anchoring for the house boat ( as planned) . Let us know if we can help with any new mooring you decide to install and anything that can be done to keep the site from being tampered with.

Thanks for your help in planning a great trip. I wish we could have seen you there and too bad about your lines and chain.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
From: "Chuck Noe" <HCD@cnsales.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:51:29 -0600
To: <ironmanservice1@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Good Enough Springs

Colin,

You can dispense with the bullshit.

After trying to give you and Steve the benefit of the doubt, the calls started coming in last week about your plans to thumb your noses at our 10 years of scientific work and exploration to do your "cowboy" dives.

It's obvious what snot-nosed little boys you are by the way you have approached the established diving organizations here in Texas. Your sense of "entitlement", to bypass the $100,000.00+ expenditures of the GSEP to seek only personal glory sickens me.

There are plenty of people who can do a deep dive, but the vast majority of them have personal integrity, unlike you and your buddy Steve. I pity the two of you.

Certainly there is nothing we can do, or would even attempt, to stop immature individuals such as yourself from diving anywhere you like. But neither can we with a clear conscience give you full complimentary use of our equipment and lines. Had any of your party been seriously injured it would be expected for you to turn around and sue us for creating an attractive nuisance. That is why we were compelled to remove our mooring and pull-lines prior to your arrival.

Our accomplishments at Goodenough were born from years of progressive scientific work and exploration. Unlike you, we didn't venture to Goodenough to prove our manhood. It was only by happenstance that we found the cave going deeper and deeper. So, we continue to explore and map as a regular progression of our project's goals. Your petty actions will have no effect on the valuable work we do at Goodenough as it's not records we seek.

We work hand-in-hand with the universities and state agencies providing valuable data and research. Our results are published in internationally recognized scientific journals such as Hydrogeology Journal. Meanwhile you get to brag to your buddies about what big shots you are. Nice going there Colin.

So, who's project are you going to piggy-back on next? Wakulla? Weeki Wachee? We're all so impressed with you (sarcasm intended in case you didn't get it). Whatever.

I'm just glad that I'm respected for my "values" in the dive community; something nobody can say about you and Steve.

Chuck



Chuck,

You to can dispense with the bs and name calling..

First, benefit of the doubt! Would this entail the understanding that there are people in this world who can also do what you do. As for Steve and I, we had no plans to go beyond your current exploration. We did however want to see your work and admire your efforts. Steve made a deep push in October and was impressed with your achievements.

Second, we have not approached any establishments for our own glory. We were however invited to participate in certain aspects of ongoing projects which led to our involvement with those projects. We too have spent many hours and many dollars (some federal grant money) in community education and awareness projects. We volunteer here in Texas for the betterment of the whole. We have never posted anything or created a website to post information that seems to be proprietary. We prefer to educate by direct contact methods by speaking and working in person with the communities we volunteer in.

Third, yes I am aware. There are many people who do deep diving. As for integrity, we sent many emails out of respect so we did not "step on your toes" or interfere with your project. I have inquired many times about Good Enough so I have information direct from the source instead of 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge. Since integrity is in question, I sense a certain lack of it with the fact we were invited down and no one from GSEP contacted us about "plans" or concerns about "dive plans" or to inform us the mooring and lines were removed which we were led to believe were still in place since you were supposed to be there too. I would believe integrity is the email I sent you to give notice of our intent out of respect or should I assume it is to invite us out under deceptive intentions?

As for GSEP and equipment, we have never asked to use it. We certainly understand the liability of allowing someone to use it. We have no issues with your concern here. However the deception of telling us to tie to your stern which is tied to the mooring line is an invitation to use your equipment is it not? All we ask is for the same consideration we have shown when we ask to come dive or get invited by you or given public information on how to dive the site by your websites logistics section or give you notice and then be slammed in public about the fact we showed up to dive.

We completely respect GSEP and its achievements in Good Enough. We respect all the members simply for the fact they are all volunteers and provide valuable contributions to the cave diving community. We were merely coming out to observe first hand the work of a competent organization such as GSEP, to dive an impressive system and gain first hand knowledge for our own future projects. I'm glad to hear you say your decision to remove the lines and mooring will not hinder your exploration efforts at Good Enough.

Bragging? Unlike Florida, Texas has limited systems to dive. The avoidance of diving in a system with others is unavoidable. You accuse me of piggy backing while your website encourages "qualified divers" to come and dive. Neither myself nor Steve have ever or would ever lay line beyond someone elses active exploration without express permission of the current exploratory diver or team.

As for "values", anyone who has taken the time to know either Steve or myself or has the courtesy to deal directly with us would know the meaning of "values". Speaking of "values", I am not sure just how valuable it is to publicly slander someone you don't really know and especially after inviting us out to dive. A simple email stating your opposition to us diving would have circumvented the whole ordeal. Instead you sent me emails encouraging us to come .and dive.

Colin

You can rest assured that the GSEP will not be engaging in a protracted debate with Messrs. Cushman and Irons.

Our position was clearly stated in the complaint and remains intact. All we request is respect for our ongoing research/exploration efforts as afforded to all legitimate dive projects.

Many other divers frequent the site with no prejudice by the GSEP. And as pointed out, we freely and publicly provide information about the site.

For those of you seeking evidence of the plan to disregard and surpass our ongoing exploration, you need look no further than the Facebook postings of Cushman himself. On a public page located at: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?ui...315&topic=6891

Steve wrote...

"We will be making our second run to Good Enough Springs the second weekend of November. We are renting a house boat and staying on the water. We will be pushing beyond the 493 foot depth made by Steve Cushman and Colin Irons on October 13, 2009." (a mere 22 feet shy of the current end-of-the-line).

Then prior to their planned trip Steve made a post on his private Facebook page that read...

"Playtime is over! Time to get to work blending gases for GES push. I
just can't seem to get enough. Will be my deepest to date. Looking forward to building
up to a new record. Just want to say thanks to all the buddies who make it possible
and stand behind what I must achieve. No room for benchwarmers on this one!!!"

We also have additional hard-evidence listing their intended depth goal as both 550 feet and 600 feet by members of their own support team (whom I'd rather spare embarassing).

If you take the time to read my e-mail response to Colin you will indeed see my displeasure with their objectives. So be it.

They are welcome to their denials, but our evidence is solid.

And as is the case with all divers, we welcome their diving at Goodenough Springs, as long as it is doesn't interfere with the ongoing work of the GSEP.

One more thing, in a private e-mail this morning Steve threatened to "expose me" for adding some line to a small sidemount cave on Merritt's Mill Pond in 2005 (which I indeed did). Upon discovering my mistake later that week I sent a sincere apology to the involved parties and haven't returned to the site since. A copy of the apology letter is available upon request.

An apology from Steve and Colin to the GSEP has yet to be seen.

Chuck Noe

I'm just a 3rd party observer of this, I don't know anyone involved.

Am I mis reading or does this all just smell like a pissing match over distance/depth?

Its a legit question not an attack, because I just don't get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fixxervi6

I'm just a 3rd party observer of this, I don't know anyone involved.

Am I mis reading or does this all just smell like a pissing match over distance/depth?

Its a legit question not an attack, because I just don't get it.

---

Yep, that's what it looks like to me. It's a public site. One team claims to be doing research for the good of the world - good let them. If the work is beneficial, then it will continue to be that no matter what anyone else does. The other team seems to be bent on a personal best of depth and maybe exceeded the current system record - good let them. Does not sound like a conflict of interest to me. However, I seems apparent that the so called research team is getting their toes and egos stepped on.

Let the race to the end of system commence.

BTW, my 2 cents, although this is somewhat entertaining, a public forum is not the place to discuss your differences.

Looks like to me that Chuck has gotten his panties in a wad over nothing. He invites them down gives them info in which they respect and then starts a slander campaign. The post he refered to don't even mention anything about a 600' push and he even refers to a distance 22' short of the line laid. Jesus is this guy bi-polar. I think if anyone is owed an apology it would be to the team that went down there. Hell they even sent an email telling them the mooring was missing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fixxervi6

I'm just a 3rd party observer of this, I don't know anyone involved.

Am I mis reading or does this all just smell like a pissing match over distance/depth?

Its a legit question not an attack, because I just don't get it.

---

I'm with you on this one, I don't know any of the players either. But it sure seems like a pissing match over who will reach the end of the system first.

I do not know any of these people either but it seems to me the complaint is filed and the response is in. Now all we need to do is weigh the facts.

If we look at the complaint and then the second post of Chuck, there is no offering of any facts other then the link to the Facebook page of the other diver (Steve Cushman). I personally do not see any mention of the 600' dive Chuck refers to. I also find it interesting there is the reluctance of the complaintant to devulge his sources of the 3 depths mentioned. How are we supposed to know it to be truth or gossip? I would lean towards gossip otherwise the depth would have remained constant.

Now if we look to the response, I see explainations surrounded by evidence to support the exact counterclaims in the response. As I read through the emails, I could not help but notice there are very friendly words between Chuck and Colin. But then after Colin informs Chuck about his mooring system, I see Chuck go off the deep end with very offensive language and slanderous remarks towards Steve and Colin. I did hit on the fact that Steve had not yet even entered the arena at this point in the argument. Another important counterclaim is the lack of the Cushman/Irons team to interfere with GSEP or cause any harm what so ever to their efforts. I can clearly see the GSEP team was not there when the Cushman/Irons team was so how do you get interference?

My opinion is this, I see a little pride from both sides. We all are proud of our accomplishments otherwise why attempt them. I also see a certain amout of deception as illustrated in the emails from Chuck to Colin. He outright approves their diving and then chastises them publicly for their actions. Chuck has offered no proof as to whether these guys actually did any of the things he claims. Right now we are all left to speculate they have not and it is only the mere assumptions they were going to that has fueled this whole issue.

All I can say is it is not good etiquette to demand an apology for an action that has not occured. It is evenmore inhumane to assume someone is going to do something and never have taken the time to confront them but instead go to great lengths and expense to circumvent the very approval you gave. The bottom line is set the desired rules in place or don't complain when someone supposedly breaks your rules of nonexistence!

Too much to read...

Looks like the organization provided enough information for a couple of guys to go out and dive, and then was surprised when the couple of guys actually went out and did it. At that point it became a contest over who uses the largest catheter.....

That's my reader's digest version - I remember in 1992 a guy looked up and said "Can't we all just get along"......

Mark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chucknoe

One more thing, in a private e-mail this morning Steve threatened to "expose me" for adding some line to a small sidemount cave on Merritt's Mill Pond in 2005 (which I indeed did). Upon discovering my mistake later that week I sent a sincere apology to the involved parties and haven't returned to the site since. A copy of the apology letter is available upon request.

---

since when is it against the rules to add line to a cave?????

My PP is bigger than your pp!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deepairmike

since when is it against the rules to add line to a cave?????

---

It's not that it is against the rules to add line to a cave; it is a matter of common courtesy. While we all see that Cushman/Irons demonstrated proper cave diving courtesy to Chuck Noe and the GESP team in their emails, what we do NOT see is common courtesy coming back. There is no proof Cushman and Irons have added any additional line to any system, therefore, no apology needed. However, we see by Chuck Noe's own admission he breeched standard protocol of common courtesy which led to the issuance of an apology. Could this possibly be his attempt at revenge? He got caught and had to apologize and now wants an apology back as if somehow this will make up for his past mistake. I can assure him there is no apology that will undue what he has done. And by apology, I also mean that to be an apology to him will not make up for his childish behavior for starting this thread.

Speaking of childish, I especially enjoy all of the comical posts such as "My PP is bigger than your pp". With such a immature post as the one started here by Chuck Noe, hell let's all make fun of it! Keep those hilarious posts coming!!!!

By the way... has anyone picked up on this?

Mr. Noe started this thread and a few people posted and inquired about the Cushman/Irons' side. So Cushman posted their response and almost immediately Chuck Noe responded to the post. Since then I haven't seen Cushman or Irons on here. Chuck just had to get the last word in.... seems awful familiar to the childish phrase "But - he started it!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FLCaveDiver

By the way... has anyone picked up on this?

Mr. Noe started this thread and a few people posted and inquired about the Cushman/Irons' side. So Cushman posted their response and almost immediately Chuck Noe responded to the post. Since then I haven't seen Cushman or Irons on here. Chuck just had to get the last word in.... seems awful familiar to the childish phrase "But - he started it!"

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Why should "they?" "You" seem to be doing all the talking for them.

Jeff

No, not since I don't know any of them. I just can't stand to see two guys get slammed by childish antics such as those demonstrated by Chuck Noe. Who by the way, was very impressive to me in his Goodenough Springs Exploration Project prior to learning of his desire to own every system out there; as evidenced in his lack of compassion for courtesy to his fellow divers. Maybe I'm just more intuitive to the real underlying issue here - intimidation. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me Chuck openly invites other divers to share his experience with him right up until they get close to his limits and the intimidation sets in; then all he knows is to try and ruin the reputations of what I can obviously see being two qualified experienced cave divers that have demonstrated courtesy as shown in their emails to Chuck Noe.

However, this whole ordeal seems to be a tug of war between Cushman and Noe; they both have boasted about excessively deep dives and their abilities to push the limits. Question is, is it Noe starting the crap because his abilities are being compromised or is it Cushman starting crap by trying to compromise Noe’s abilities? I speak of Noe’s abilities because that is all that has been spoken about here. The only mention of Cushman’s abilities was from Noe stating that Cushman is too immature to make those kinds of dives. However, we see evidence they have both already completed those types of dives. The real point here is it’s just a pissing match between egos. Just not sure whose ego is getting bruised? We all know the guilty dog barks first; but the silent dog normally has more to say.

former CDF member named Dikhed ( whose post was removed by some moderator ) asked very good questions ...what are the qualifications of the C/I team? What is the deepest the Project team has been? Is the Goodenough Project crew in the same pile as the WKPP who try to own the springs they dive? Seems like these questions are valid and it is a pissing /ego match between groups. This is healthy competition in the real and free USA...keep on rocking in the free world.

Sounds like Noe, et al need to quit the sniveling- It's an open site. If you want to keep the end of the line, you better step up, before someone else does. Overwise, keep your mouth shut about the location like everyone else does. Conventional ethics would suggest that nobody go in and add line if there is a current exploration going on- but if you let that sit- then expect others are going to view you as incompetent to make the exploration and step in, as they should. His best bet is to roll these two into the team- let them make their exploration dive, and lay line. Then come in and survey it, they they can. If they can't, you can publicly ridicule them for incompetence and overstepping their capabilities. You're better off working with them- than against them- there aren't that many people willing to make a dive like that- regardless of where you are. Just tell them that you expect a survey out of it.

Jason

This reminds me of some of the dry caving in TAG wars of the 80s. Norsmans Wells/James Harry Smith cave comes to mind right off.

Yea- the politics never change, just the locations. Interesting point that the canadian makes- had no idea that the UIS had published ethics standards... thanks! Oops- that was in another forum, same subject, sorry.

The Canadian ...sounds so " foreign " LOL

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Originally Posted by rchrds

Yea- the politics never change, just the locations. Interesting point that the canadian makes- had no idea that the UIS had published ethics standards... thanks! Oops- that was in another forum, same subject, sorry.

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Link please?

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Originally Posted by FW

Link please?

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Google is your friend:
http://www.uis-speleo.org/ethic-en.html

Before undertaking an expedition to a foreign country, the visitor group should find out about previous work and/or current exploration by local or foreign cavers, in order not to interfere with current projects.

Credit for previous exploration should be given in expedition reports.

If several groups happen to be working in the same area, then the opportunity should be taken to learn from each other and to co-ordinate further work.

Pretty vanilla. I think they're sidestepping what is very complex. Personally, I think no one should scoop another's project. But a person/group can't leave a project fallow forever. It may be that grey area. In this particular case, it seems one team had a big project going. Welcomed another set of divers who said they were just visiting. But through Facebook, discovered they were going to scoop. The first group/project came completely unhinged. Who knows exactly what the truth is, but better communication seems to have been in order.

I posted the link on TDS as I know a lot of European and Canadian cavers that know of it..but not so many elsewhere.I posted the data and my opinion (same as Barbara's essentially ) in the hope that something like the chaos in Pozo Azul would not happen here.

In a nutshell I think they are proposing that people not screw one another over and use communication and simple personal integrity for positive results .I see more and more posts about just going to do what one wants and I see potential 'cave wars" as a result...the result of which is not often good for anyone and the caves.Not to mention the HUGE de motivational factor it would be if poaching was the norm.Can you imagine spending years and years of efforts along with personal financing to get going passage open etc only to have someone jump in and scoop the glory without any effort (uninvited)

I have no opinion on Goodenough (other than it has been a fascinating exploration with huge potential) as I could not possibly be privy to all the true goings on and nuances between the 2 parties.I DO hope that goodwill is something that can be salvaged and the expedition continues without bad blood.

If "grey" areas or perceived poor behavior is present at a site-then I hope the cave community leaders/groups involved and potential or existing landowners can ALL negotiate to resolution or at least group majority.

In the end I believe it is ethical AND productive to approach the known expedition originator/s regarding their current intention. If they are at their limit or no longer interested in actively pushing the system-then the new initiative would hopefully get the bonus of past data/experience/support of the originators.This prevents re inventing the wheel and allows moving forward in a positive direction which is good for all involved.


If the original explorers are active -then hopefully interested and able parties can be invited/encouraged to join and support (of course one may have to follow 'when in Rome do as the Romans do" in this scenario)

This is in the scope of virgin exploration/science/survey projects.


I feel completely different if a site has been fully explored(for the most part) and there are NO restrictions needed for conservation IE Lecheguilla access protocols etc

If a site is walled out (the odd errant new small passage here and there aside) and beneficial data can be gleaned by various qualified groups without tainting results of one another's work..then the site should be open to those that can develop the infrastructure and skilled divers to do so.Public sites especially!!


Just my take...love it or hate it LOL

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Google is your friend:
http://www.uis-speleo.org/ethic-en.html

I think they're sidestepping what is very complex. Personally, I think no one should scoop another's project. But a person/group can't leave a project fallow forever.

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Do you think you have this mindset becuase you are a caver?? or other reasons?

I know this was the mindset presented to me as I mentored -learning to cave and or sump dive (the little that I have done)

I am not sure how many spring trained divers feel this way-based on many posts I have read over time.

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Originally Posted by eramosakarst

I am not sure how many spring trained divers feel this way-based on many posts I have read over time.

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What do they think?

Isn't that common sense and respect.

Yadda, yadda, yadda and my D**k is bigger than yours.

I am not sure if there was an effort to scoop or not in this case. Maybe it was a misunderstanding, maybe there was some communication but it was veiled in intent.

But, a "no poaching" ethic exists in other sports like sport rock climbing as well (where bolts are installed to facilitate free climbing efforts that may take a long time and many tries). Such an ethic does not exist in mountaineering where there has often been a race to the top of an unclimbed peak/face/wall.

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Originally Posted by cavedivenut

Yadda, yadda, yadda and my D**k is bigger than yours.

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that's what I'm getting out of this whole thing
my response to this thread is: "who gives a ****?"

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

What do they think?

Isn't that common sense and respect.

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I have seen many many posts about just going into a site...irregardless to ongoing exploration.IE if it is a public site them people should be able to push as they please.I will have to go back through lot of posts and find examples for you...I never thought to grab any.I can see it happening though as many people who are trained to dive in caves have had no other exposure to caves and the long held protocols developed in the long history of caving-then into cave diving as it developed.

I am not sure-does expedition mountain summiting follow a similar thing? IE a group sets lines and infrastructure to push a virgin summit..then a group comes along while they are doing something else and runs the summit..would that be frowned upon?

Regarding Pozo Azul- a HUGE portion of people I talked with thought it was okay(or did not know of the cavers protocols) for the EKPP to go ahead and push even though the CDG and Spanish groups had done all the work to access/site specific aids etc etc and were actively working the site.( I believe it "may" have been motivated by the fact that EKPP said a cave walled out in France(walled out to me means we are done) and the CDG came along later and pushed much father.This was suggested to be a tit for tat...of course I do not know all the details to know fully BUT EKPP did go in and push the EOL (Pozo Azul) without discussing it with the original group and the action was "justified" by the divers..

BTW the much further EOL is currently held by the CDG AFAIK

IMHO the protocol for approaching existing cave exploration has been in place for an awfully long time and is nothing new


The CDG forum has some posts on it as well as BUEX.ORG-I think DIRexplorers had some posts as well.

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Originally Posted by eramosakarst

I am not sure-does expedition mountain summiting follow a similar thing? IE a group sets lines and infrastructure to push a virgin summit..then a group comes along while they are doing something else and runs the summit..would that be frowned upon?

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Nobody is really setting up fixed ropes anymore, they are scooping each other's summits and lines (e.g. "blah blah ridge") alpine style. Ala the Peary vs. Cook North Pole race. This is all pretty minor in the grand geologic scheme of things. Kinda like pushing deeper into a hole in the ground.

I don't think wet or dry cavers should be scooping each others projects, but that's mostly a function of the respect I think human beings should afford one another moreso than any universal caver ethics.