Restrictions - Major , Minor or Dont Even Think About It ?

Restriction = Areas too small for two divers to pass through together. Further classified as either Major (R) and Minor (r) .
First let me say that its been exciting to follow along and see recent/current exploration reward the crews pushing it. Even more so at spots that are heavily dived daily and for years. The passages being mapped and then available to all is the icing on a very fat cake. Congratulations and THANK YOU for sharing your adventures and fortune.

When are restrictions too small or tight that they are considered unpassable? Is it worth pushing through knowing you would definitely cause some cave scars ?

I'm guessing you're going to get different answers from almost everyone. What's impassable to me is nothing to someone like Ag or Joe, who apparently have the spine of a cat and collapsible rib cages. And then, what's nice and big to me, might scare the bejebus out of someone who prefers wide tunnel he can't touch with both hands.

As to causing damage in the name of exploration....SSSHHHHHH!!!!!! I'd heard you were a trouble maker!!

:shortie

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Originally Posted by sskasser

someone who prefers wide tunnel he can't touch with both hands.

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Leave me out of this!


(Actually, I prefer wide tunnels where my light can't reach from wall to wall!)

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Leave me out of this!


(Actually, I prefer wide tunnels where my light can't reach from wall to wall!)

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LOL, and I feel a bit antsy in passage that big! Like Bubba says..."Son, if'n we all liked the same the thing, everybody'd be after yer granmaw"

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Leave me out of this!


(Actually, I prefer wide tunnels where my light can't reach from wall to wall!)

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see I don't like that, to me it doesn't feel like I'm in a cave anymore when its like that, its like I'm swimming through a void.

I like em all. Eagle's Nest looking around from the top of the debris pile, those skinny vertical cracks at telford, the wormholes too small for sidemount, viz at 200 feet and viz at 2 feet, swiss cheese passages, catacombs, some of those not-on-the-map side twisties in Little River....but it's hard to beat Cannonball in MO for the pure beauty, snapping crayfish, and deep darkness. and don't even get me going on our own little guy james 15 minutes down the road....

-skip

One of my favorite caves is Lafayette Blue. There's something cool about following a line in a void when you can't see the floor, ceiling, or any walls.

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Originally Posted by BobK

One of my favorite caves is Lafayette Blue. There's something cool about following a line in a void when you can't see the floor, ceiling, or any walls.

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It's even more interesting laying line when you have no point of reference.

I have mixed feelings about this. I certainly do not have as accomplished a resume as the folks pushing these caves, but I think as long as we take reasonable care to conserve the caves (e.g. using sidemount where BM would do major damage, etc.) some scars are worth exposing the beauty of the cave that lies beyond and the priviledge of being the first human to see it. If cave conservation were the #1 priority of cave divers, we would never go in the caves to begin with.

On the other hand, there is no excuse for blatant/lazy/careless cave damage. I don't get too excited seeing a couple of scrape marks through a passage that I would hesitate to go in otherwise vs. hand and knee prints in wide open passage.

Herbie... the answer to your question all depends on what can be seen or guessed about what lays beyond the restriction. This would determine the amount of "effort" put forth to pass it.

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

...... If cave conservation were the #1 priority of cave divers, we would never go in the caves to begin with....

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Well said!

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Originally Posted by battles2a5

If cave conservation were the #1 priority of cave divers, we would never go in the caves to begin with.

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Actually... mapping some cave systems has made changes take place in commercial development, zoning, and many other things that would have destroyed some caves without the efforts.

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Originally Posted by BobK

One of my favorite caves is Lafayette Blue. There's something cool about following a line in a void when you can't see the floor, ceiling, or any walls.

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You'd like some sections of Cathedral. Dive the abyss,and have the buzz of narcosis.

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

It's even more interesting laying line when you have no point of reference.

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Yeah, that must be even cooler :-)

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

You'd like some sections of Cathedral. Dive the abyss,and have the buzz of narcosis.

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I do have to get there. Darn Work !!

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Originally Posted by Herbie

When are restrictions too small or tight that they are considered unpassable? Is it worth pushing through knowing you would definitely cause some cave scars ?

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No!

When one has the proper skill and equipment to traverse the passage/restriction without leaving a mark only then should it be attempted.


Otherwise every passage will soon be trashed by someone who doesn't yet have the skill.

didn't sheck exley (and others) bash open the keyhole to open up ginnie?

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

didn't sheck exley (and others) bash open the keyhole to open up ginnie?

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Nope. It was Gene Melton that first found the Keyhole, and it was always big enough for one diver to get through with no damage. Prior to that, they were going through what is now called the Keyhole bypass.

I will admit that the thousands of divers that have gone in since then have widened it up a bit. The Lips, and Cornflakes have seen more wear though.

I think the biggest changes, due to traffic, are the Peanut restriction in Peacock, and the Half Hitch in Madiaon Blue.

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Originally Posted by FW

The Lips, and Cornflakes have seen more wear though.

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Forrest, the Cornflakes are no more. :cry:

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Forrest, the Cornflakes are no more. :cry:

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Yes, and I have always wondered if they were just ground up due to traffic, or removed as souvineers...

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Originally Posted by FW

Yes, and I have always wondered if they were just ground up due to traffic, or removed as souvineers...

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there are a few left if you look hard enough. it's pretty sad though :(

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

there are a few left if you look hard enough.

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But they're the size of real corn flakes. They used to be the size of dinner plates.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

But they're the size of real corn flakes. They used to be the size of dinner plates.

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there's a couple...

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Actually... mapping some cave systems has made changes take place in commercial development, zoning, and many other things that would have destroyed some caves without the efforts.

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That's a very good point, I hadn't considered that.

If you don't fit, it's too tight.

But, that's why they invented things like hammers, drills, bang, pry bars etc...

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

If you don't fit, it's too tight.

But, that's why they invented things like hammers, drills, bang, pry bars etc...

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So here is my question then. I am not a dry caver, but have read reports here and there about dry cavers "opening" up the cave. Is there a large backlash in that community for those that use these other tools to open up a cave?

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Originally Posted by rotor60driver

So here is my question then. I am not a dry caver, but have read reports here and there about dry cavers "opening" up the cave. Is there a large backlash in that community for those that use these other tools to open up a cave?

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Some people are anti-"opening" and others realize it is part of exploring.

"Most" people are judicious when they "open."

There's a spectrum of what "opening" is. It goes from pushing aside some sand to get through a crawlway to using bang. There's digging out fill washed in an entrance with shovels and buckets to having to gingerly peck away at a little secondary calcite to pass through a restriction where you can see big cave ahead and air blowing through.

There's a "digging" section of the NSS, so to that extent, it's well sanctioned.

Generally the backlash isn't too big, but folks don't generally make a big point of emphasizing it, either.

We have dug above and below water here(Canuckistan) to remove glacial debris blocking entrances and passages.The only reason we do it /feel it is justified is due to encroaching potential of total karst destruction.
Quite a few systems have been explored and mapped-this data allowed either complete preservation through designation of a conservation site (with management policy) or at the minimum an ANSI is created thus allowing more leverage to protect against construction over the karst.

The ONLY reason protection was afforded is due to the cave map accurately showing the tunnel locations.We have the good fortune to have cave science input and direction on the digs to afford protection for rare bio-dioversity and speleothems.In the end I feel altering a cave is justified when the benefits outweigh the negatives.Ultimately any cave traffic causes some degradation-if there is a purpose to the traffic -then I feel it is manageable.

What is worse-an altered cave entrance and perhaps minor passage work VS complete and utter destruction of the cave through grouting/collapse during excavation or post construction? We already have a few systems that are no longer due to ignorance or corruption in construction of sub divisions.

The added bonus is the we fully enjoy mapping and exploring but the focus is karst protection and identification.

Exploration(mapping) brings back data that is useful to many cave disciplines that ultimately might outweigh the alterations needed to enable it(if it is kept to the lowest change needed.).Each situation should be fully discussed and considered with a peer involvement IMHO

Even so called "sacrificial" training caves may end up being 'justifiable" in the end scope as this may prevent unnecessary damage in many other cave systems.

Everyone has an opinion..this is my stance and I feel no guilt for my actions.Others may feel differently.

Digging, both in and out of the water is nothing new. **Many** major caves have been opened by digging, taking them from the status of a damp hole on the hillside to a classic underground trip. The longest cave in Tennessee for example, was just a 300' long cave with a windy crawl at the back.

When the (unpassably small) crawl was enlarged, they dropped right into the middle of a major passage, and gained access to the other 35 miles of cave. We dug open a second entrance around the hillside later at the land owner's request to ensure easy access in the event of a rescue.

Lechugilla in NM was dug open. Kartchner caverns in AZ (now a state park) was dug open. The list goes on.

The British have a long history of major, long term excavations both above and below water.

You don't hear about it much because something worth digging on usually represents a good lead, and that's not often something that gets advertised. It's a lot of very hard, focused work, often not leading to any cave.

Some projects last years and never get anywhere, but sometimes... In those rare instances where you've been toiling for months, one more rock is pried free and suddenly there is an audible 'Whoosh!' as you feel the cool air wash over you. Those are the moments that make moving tons of material, the sore backs, busted hands, and hundreds of hours working all worthwhile.

And the irony is that those that complain and whine about digging, then usually have no problem taking advantage of the fruits of your labor.

A new cave diver's perspective ...

I like open spaces better than enclosed ones. Two days ago I dived Hole in the Wall for the first time. Holy mother of Jesus that's a beautiful cave. I could spend hours in there admiring the scenery ... it's like Arches National Park underwater.

Yesterday I dived Madison Blue. Couldn't be more different. I felt like I was in restrictions more than I was out of them. I found it constricting, and a bit mentally daunting whenever I started thinking about what I would do if I had to turn around or the guy behind me suddenly had a problem that needed my immediate assistance. In short, it stressed me out a bit and I didn't really enjoy it.

I'm told these restrictive passages get "bigger" as you gain more experience. Perhaps they do ... my dive buddies came out of there talking about what fun dives they were. I'm glad I did them, but they didn't feel like that much fun to me ... maybe it will after another 100 or so cave dives. I hope so ... but I think loving restrictions is an acquired taste ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

Lechugilla in NM was dug open.

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I dug more than anyone else on the whole project. I was on every dig trip. Then it was starting to get dangerous. On the Dave trip (4 out of 6 people were named Dave), I was on bucket duty as my carbide light would blow out at the dig face. Dave L was digging and the thing collapsed in on him. It took us 2 hours to get back to the place we were. So finally I skipped one dig trip. Murphy's law--within a half hour they broke through!!!

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Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver

<snip>I think loving restrictions is an acquired taste ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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Yes, many people will never dive certain passages because of that and that is okay. Different strokes for different...strokes. :grin:

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Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver

I'm told these restrictive passages get "bigger" as you gain more experience. Perhaps they do ...

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Yes, they do. The first few times I did the section between the main line and the Banana Room I didn't know if I was going to be able to do it. I considered carrying an Epi-Pen with me on dives in case I freaked out with claustrophobia!

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Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver

A new cave diver's perspective ...

I like open spaces better than enclosed ones. Two days ago I dived Hole in the Wall for the first time. Holy mother of Jesus that's a beautiful cave. I could spend hours in there admiring the scenery ... it's like Arches National Park underwater.

Yesterday I dived Madison Blue. Couldn't be more different. I felt like I was in restrictions more than I was out of them. I found it constricting, and a bit mentally daunting whenever I started thinking about what I would do if I had to turn around or the guy behind me suddenly had a problem that needed my immediate assistance. In short, it stressed me out a bit and I didn't really enjoy it.

I'm told these restrictive passages get "bigger" as you gain more experience. Perhaps they do ... my dive buddies came out of there talking about what fun dives they were. I'm glad I did them, but they didn't feel like that much fun to me ... maybe it will after another 100 or so cave dives. I hope so ... but I think loving restrictions is an acquired taste ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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it's a pretty one isn't it? :)

Funny, Bob, I have the exact opposite reaction. Big rooms where the line is far away make me nervous. NoHoch makes me very apprehensive, because the spaces are so wide, and you could wander so far off the line.

The smaller and more intimate the cave gets, the perkier and more delighted I become. Now, of course, I'm not talking about the kind of restriction the OP is referring to -- not something where I might get inextricably stuck. But get the cave down around me so I have to think about how to get through, and I"m like a pig in manure. I don't have the skills for it, but I love it anyway.

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Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver

A new cave diver's perspective ...

...Yesterday I dived Madison Blue. Couldn't be more different. I felt like I was in restrictions more than I was out of them. I found it constricting, and a bit mentally daunting whenever I started thinking about what I would do if I had to turn around or the guy behind me suddenly had a problem that needed my immediate assistance. In short, it stressed me out a bit and I didn't really enjoy it.

I'm told these restrictive passages get "bigger" as you gain more experience. Perhaps they do ... my dive buddies came out of there talking about what fun dives they were. I'm glad I did them, but they didn't feel like that much fun to me ... maybe it will after another 100 or so cave dives. I hope so ... but I think loving restrictions is an acquired taste ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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Well, one thing's for sure, Bob. I told you Madison was different.

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Originally Posted by CGriffing

Well, one thing's for sure, Bob. I told you Madison was different.

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You have a talent for understatement, my friend ... :roll:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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Originally Posted by CGriffing

Well, one thing's for sure, Bob. I told you Madison was different.

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Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver

You have a talent for understatement, my friend ... :roll:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

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Madison is one of my favorite caves.