What would you do? (line safety situation)

You can check my dive report for Rock Bluff on the reports page, but essentially this is the situation I found myself in:

upon exit following the main line I found the line had been broken and I was NOT on the exit side. I deployed safety spool and began to swim in the direction I believed was the exit based on the water/particulate flow direction and markings from divers on rocks and restrictions. As my spool emptied out I found the mainline with just feet of line left on my reel, tied off to the mainline and made a safe exit.

So... what would you do if...

-your spool was empty and you had no other reserve spool/reel to continue your search?
- would you leave your spool and free swim in the direction you feel the flow and passage continues?
-Would you recover your spool, then free swim in case you needed it further down the passage?
-When you did find the mainline, would you have spent the time necessary to re-spool the old line onto your now empty spool in case you needed a safety line yet again before you reached your exit?

I felt foolish that I didn't have additional spools with me, as I rarely ever dive with less than 4 (primary for entry, two in my pockets and one on my butt). I accept the opinions of those who do not condone solo diving and perhaps that is my error that since I chose to do this dive solo I therefore choose to either add the extra level of redundancy or accept the consequences. What I hope to gain from this post is merely, what would you do if in this situation? I've learned my lesson on what gear needs to be standard for me... how about you?

There are a lot of "ifs", but I would go back and get some of the old cave line, and use it to search for the line on the exit side. One of the "ifs" would be *if* I had enough gas to double back.

I would not enter a cave solo or with a buddy or two with just one spool or reel. Two, each 150feet, is the minimum (not including primary to enter). Most often a third one (75ft) tucked in a pocket.

IF I'd been in there before and was pretty sure I knew my way around, I'd just go on with no guideline unless I had plenty of gas and was unsure about the way out. I would also mark my trail (see next paragraph).

IF gas is plentiful, then I'd mark the cave (yes deface) where I was, rewind the line, and then go back to the end of the line mark I left, essentially returning to the scene of my crime and begin again at that point tying off and continuing my search for the line. I may even deface at various intervals along my route. The nicest defacement is to stack or arrange rocks, if any (most people would not even notice, and besides they could be easily strewn about again).

I suppose you could drop pieces of gear along the way...spare mask, wetnotes, extra zip knife, a battery from a backup light.... like breadcrumbs.

-skip

it IS sobering isn't it?

Spools IMHO are like lights - given how small they are, there's no good reason not to slap a couple extra in a pocket above those carried for the 'rules".

Plus what if you find new cave? Gotta have a reel for that!!!

And to answer your question - I'd drop a lit light on the end of my reel, and start following a wall with the flow. If it doesn't take you out, go back and follow the next wall. keep going until you find the other end.

Have never entered a cave without at least a safety reel AND a backup spool. Since buddy will have at least an additional spool (unless things really went bad and I had to exit solo) and probably 2, this is probably not an issue I need to consider. Some things are too obscure to plan for unless you dive ill-equipped.

WJH

I had an experience where I was short a spool. I always dive with one more than I think I am going to need, now.

The only solution I can come up with for your situation would be to tie off, backtrack, retrieve the line (winding it around my hand, or whatever I could come up with) and then spool the line out again from the tie off. Sounds like a potentially very frightening situation, depending on gas.

ooh, i like lynne's idea.

i'm shamelessly stealing it, so that's what i would do, too!

I like FW's idea... if I have interpreted it correctly... go back and gather additional mainline to extend your search... if gas didn't permit, the "bread crumbs" or "cave markings" would be my next choice.

*again, I admit my mistake of being ill equipped... yet this is not what we are discussing

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

the "bread crumbs" would be my next choice.

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Bad plan. I tried it once. The catfish ate them.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Bad plan. I tried it once. The catfish ate them.

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a trail of dead catfish might work

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I like FW's idea... if I have interpreted it correctly... go back and gather additional mainline to extend your search... if gas didn't permit, the "bread crumbs" or "cave markings" would be my next choice.

*again, I admit my mistake of being ill equipped... yet this is not what we are discussing

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I've posted in dive reports a request from matt just on the mistake of carrying one spool. The idea is that by exploring the thoughts (or lack thereof) that led to the one-spool gear configuration a sort of Non-accident Analysis can take place. Accident Analysis suffers from the lack of a control group or adequate comparisons, which would be an analysis of those situations in which people survive (despite problems with the potential for a bad outcome). No bashing or second-guessing, but an enlightened discussion of the thoughts and actions that lead to carrying one spool might be revealing. Complacency? Tenacity? Dedicated, but Poor Planning? Maybe another thread ?

-skip

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I like FW's idea... if I have interpreted it correctly... go back and gather additional mainline to extend your search... if gas didn't permit, the "bread crumbs" or "cave markings" would be my next choice....

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Yes, that is correct.

LCF and BabyDuck's idea would work, except that the current had blown the loose line towards the entrance, out of reach. I also carry enough backup lights to make a pretty long "breadcrumb trail" :-)

I would only consider a breadcrumb trail in a cave without much silt, and fairly good flow. Most of the places I dive are low current, and very silty, so no chance of following the trail.

Current can be a dangerous thing to follow too. I got off the (very black) line between Catfish Hotel, and the main spring at Manatee. I tried to follow the current out, and ended up in a dead end room.

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Originally Posted by skip

I've posted in dive reports a request from matt just on the mistake of carrying one spool. The idea is that by exploring the thoughts (or lack thereof) that led to the one-spool gear configuration a sort of Non-accident Analysis can take place. Accident Analysis suffers from the lack of a control group or adequate comparisons, which would be an analysis of those situations in which people survive (despite problems with the potential for a bad outcome). No bashing or second-guessing, but an enlightened discussion of the thoughts and actions that lead to carrying one spool might be revealing. Complacency? Tenacity? Dedicated, but Poor Planning? Maybe another thread ?

-skip

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If you don't plan to do any jumps, one spool is supposed to be enough, but I agree that it sometimes isn't.

FWIW, I never carry less than 3, and add one for each planned jump.

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Originally Posted by FW

If you don't plan to do any jumps, one spool is supposed to be enough, but I agree that it sometimes isn't.

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Thank you for telling this example, made me think. I was taught to carry two safeties, and I don't get it how one would ever be enough for me to feel secure. I have greatly enjoyed every time someone has posted real and imagined examples of scenarios where easy enough things have happened to show how sane it is to carry more than one safety.

I read on another board about lost line/lost buddy situation where one had to consider cutting the only safety after finding back on line to have enough left to look for buddy/get out another exit. Given it was imaginary situation, I would hate to be down to nothing to look with if I had huge gas reserves and knew my buddy was wandering in the darkness.

this was my response to skip on the dive reports forum.... trying to clear the air as to why I originally posted...

"Bugman,
you are right on... I typically dive with at minimum of 4 reels unless I have something larger planned. I normally (at least in the last year or two) dive with my girlfriend or we dive solo one after the other (if we have the young one with us). Our gear is seperated into two large rubbermaid bins and while I tote the analizer and bug spray, she totes the mass of reels.... when gearing up we each grab what we need. At the last minute on this night she decided not to dive, therefore not opening her bin. I made the mistake of not getting any reels because my normal routine was flawed (i'm a big fan of a strong routine when diving). Upon arriving at the spring and getting my tanks on I realized I didn't have a single reel with me. She volunteered to go back to the boat ramp and get them for me... she returned with a primary and a safety, and I made the error to decide to dive with them anyway. I own my error.
I posted this thread to share a dive report, not for accident analysis. I posted on the main forum to share a situation and ask what would you do if faced with the same situation. If your (and i'm not directing this to skip, but to everyone) answer is, you would never be in that situation because you would never make the mistake of being ill equipped, then it is not necessary for a response. I had hoped my inital post clearly stated that I understand I did make a mistake, I owned it, and I was merely sharing my experience and asking what would you do? If nothing else, perhaps others who have made the same error but not had a situation similar to mine to deal with will learn the lesson I did. I had always been taught and I continue to teach that divers, especially cave divers, that have accidents are almost always diving above their ability/training level or they choose to do something that they know is against the rules or their abilities... I made the choice to be ill equipped and have learned from it. I have a story to tell, a lesson to remember, and a wad of old cave line that will serve as a reminder of what could have happened. I'm thankful nothing more serious did happen and I hope to be a better diver because of it. Perhaps others will too..."

any idea what might have caused the line to break? was it in poor shape on the way in? did you get hung up on it and maybe that snapped it?

I carry one more spool than I think I need. So on a no jump dive I have a 150ft safety plus a second 100ft spool. I am generally adding 100ft spools for any jumps on top of these 2.

In your case I think I would have spooled back up about 1/2 of the safety and them gone left and right at angles from there to try and intercept the exit side. Going back to the start-start at the end of the inside end seems to be a bit far to me. Then again I don't know the system at all either.

I've been in this situation before. I forgot that I had removed my backup spool from my ds pocket. I was making a "relaxation" dive one day in a small cave on the Suwannee. I got to a point where a collapse had occurred. Not wanting to call the dive, I used my safety reel( yeah I Know) to gap around the breakdown. In my hubris, I continued on thinking I had a spool in my pocket.
I swam around a pretty substantial line trap before encountering a restriction. While negotiating the restriction, My primary failed. No big deal, but while deploying my back up in the restriction, the vis went to zero. Again, no gig deal! Then I began my exit on the line. Remember the line trap? I did. It was a bad enough trap that I decided to deploy my spool that I didn't have with me.
I foolishly attempted to negotiate the trap in zero vis without a line. Like I said, this was a bad line trap. because of the cave I was in, I knew I didn't want to go far downstream without a line because of the nature of the tunnels. I finally aborted the attempt to negotiate the trap and tried in vain to wait out the silt. Not happening today! I finally decided that The only safe option I had was to swim back into the cave ( I knew the upstream portion of the cave was tight and would prevent my wondering) until I could get some vis, and at least keep my bubbles from trashing the trap area. As I swam into the cave past the point where I had turned, I found the line. I cut the line, and used it to negotiate the trap. I learned so much that day! Mostly about complacency and preparation. When I returned to the entrance, My wife was waiting patiently in the boat. She asked how it went. I told her that it was 15 minutes of intensity sandwiched between 2 30 min periods of total bliss. I agree with FW. Use the line. Just make sure you go back and fix it.
FWIW The biggest danger in an underwater cave is yourself. It's also your greatest resource.

i'm really not sure exactly what caused the break, however I noticed on entry that in many areas, especially the restrictions, the line was very slack. I originally noticed this when watching the youtube video of Agnes diving the system and had thought while making the video she broke the line, but then after getting into dive myself realized she didn't in fact do anything, that is just how the line is... very slack and likely to catch on things. I noticed several times the line catching on my fin heel area and also my pee-valve bolt (I hadn't dove with the bolt in for years but recently was having leaks so I put the bolt back in to minimize them). The several line hangups I had during the dive were easily noticed and corrected, but obvoiusly this one wasn't. I'm sure on entry any extra pulling or drag that could have been me hung up on the slack line could have been confused with the flow... I was working hard the whole dive due to the high flow and not wanting to touch delicate areas.

ICD thanks for posting this report. Being only cavern certified I haven't given a great deal of thought to multiple reels. My thought being that since I am only in the caverns right now I shouldn't need more than one. After reading you posts I started giving the need for extra spools some thought and have decided that I will be purchasing and carrying at least one more and maybe two. After all it doesn't hurt in the slightest to tote some extra gear when its that small and I definately never want to find myself in a situation similar to yours. So your post has at the very least helped a newbie keep from making the same mistake.

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Originally Posted by FW

If you don't plan to do any jumps, one spool is supposed to be enough, but I agree that it sometimes isn't.

FWIW, I never carry less than 3, and add one for each planned jump.

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In intro class, doing lost line drill, and no lights, I dropped my spool while trying to tie off! No worries, just pulled out a back up and continued. Taught me to make sure I always have a backup or two!

-skip

I fouled my safety during the same drill in my cave course. Not ten minutes before the dive, my instructor was telling me the benefits of having two safeties. I jammed the reel under a ledge and went for the second safety and found the line. I had jump reels, but that was just by chance. Lesson learned and permanently imprinted... +1 for lessons learned in training.

I have to say for all the planning I do with gas and other stuff, I never thought about bringing a backup saftey spool. Part of my reasoning was well I keep it in my pocket clipped off, so it can not disappear unnoticed and usually carry one more spool then need for jumps. Today I just ordered another 150' FS to keep in my pocket with my other one, if nothing more I have knotted line incase i find the passage everyone else missed with no line in it :)

What was the condition of the line pre breakage and did you look at the line you brought out with you to see if it looked in bad shape?

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Originally Posted by atedeschi

...Today I just ordered another 150' FS to keep in my pocket with my other one, if nothing more I have knotted line incase i find the passage everyone else missed with no line in it :)...

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If you really find a new passage, you will wish you had more than 150' :rollguy

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Originally Posted by atedeschi

...What was the condition of the line pre breakage and did you look at the line you brought out with you to see if it looked in bad shape?

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The old line may not tell you much about the break. I have a lot of line that I pulled out of a flood prone cave. It was broken in a dozen places, but what survived the flood was in fairly good shape. I still use it like twine for non critical things (like holding the bumper on my truck).

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Originally Posted by FW

Current can be a dangerous thing to follow too. I got off the (very black) line between Catfish Hotel, and the main spring at Manatee. I tried to follow the current out, and ended up in a dead end room.

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Ooh- I've done that exact same thing, in the same place. Funny. But it wasn't at the time.

The number of spools/amount of line is sort or irrelevant to the original poster's question, and so, in a way, is the solo issue. Once you run out of spools/line (I carry an exploration reel with me all the time, but I'm usually exploring...) What to do then? Can you be sure that after laying all of that line that you are indeed going the correct direction? I think that regardless of flow- if I dumped that much line, I would be very suspicious that i had gone the wrong direction- It's pretty rare that even in a high flow cave more than a couple of hundred feet of line could get stripped on the same dive you had just made- there are usually more tieoffs than that- it will pile up somewhere eventually. I might agree that a 60 foot spool might not be enough- in large passage I may tie off only every 50 feet or so- if you cut the line before a tieoff, and it worked lose of the one before it...

As for the solo issue- what more is the buddy doing than providing a light at the end of the line? This might put you in a worse position- say you are already in your last third after searching for a while- and you finally find the end of the line beyond the light range of your buddy? You have to go back for him- but you could have just left your light there to recover later...

Interesting post, thanks original poster. And i do like Andrew's suggestions.

Haha- and Forrest, I must admit to this, because you reminded me of it- What better use for branch or side lines- I have been guilty of completely stripping all of the side lines in a sump to extend the exploration, as we had long since run out of line. I still feel slightly guilty about it- but the original explorer is now dead, and there have been a sum total of 4 people ever in the underwater part of the cave- If someone wants to make the 3 day donkey ride down to the spring, I'll buy a couple of spools of line for them...

Jason

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Originally Posted by rchrds

...Haha- and Forrest, I must admit to this, because you reminded me of it- What better use for branch or side lines- I have been guilty of completely stripping all of the side lines in a sump to extend the exploration, as we had long since run out of line. I still feel slightly guilty about it- but the original explorer is now dead, and there have been a sum total of 4 people ever in the underwater part of the cave- If someone wants to make the 3 day donkey ride down to the spring, I'll buy a couple of spools of line for them...

Jason

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Ask Jose Morales about doing that in J2 :-)

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Originally Posted by FW

I still use it like twine for non critical things (like holding the bumper on my truck).

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I've got some 25 year old Bluewater II that I use the same way. Old caving rope never dies.

Mike

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

i'm really not sure exactly what caused the break, however I noticed on entry that in many areas, especially the restrictions, the line was very slack. I originally noticed this when watching the youtube video of Agnes diving the system and had thought while making the video she broke the line, but then after getting into dive myself realized she didn't in fact do anything, that is just how the line is... very slack and likely to catch on things. I noticed several times the line catching on my fin heel area and also my pee-valve bolt (I hadn't dove with the bolt in for years but recently was having leaks so I put the bolt back in to minimize them). The several line hangups I had during the dive were easily noticed and corrected, but obvoiusly this one wasn't. I'm sure on entry any extra pulling or drag that could have been me hung up on the slack line could have been confused with the flow... I was working hard the whole dive due to the high flow and not wanting to touch delicate areas.

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Got to be real careful in river cave because frequently the line is old twisted #18,and have seen this stuff break without too much difficulty. I have developed a lot of different protocols for diving caves with old line like this ie never drop a stage on the line,but run a reel from the original line,and place the stages on your line etc.

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I noticed on entry that in many areas, especially the restrictions, the line was very slack.

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AFAIK the line is laid this way deliberately in sidemount caves, so you can "work the line" as needed to get through restrictions. In fact, I mentioned this to my buddy Bob L, whom I'd taken into Rock Bluff the day before Matt's dive, and afterwards he mentioned that he was glad I told him or he'd have tried to tighten it up.... :)

Safe diving,

Rich

Ive never heard of this either Rich, thanks for the info.

Sheck Exley always left slack in his lines. He didn't tie-off very often either. He felt it took too long to negotiate a tie-off in low visibility, and the slack was to get around line-traps.

I seem to remember reading in an old copy of UWS that they tested how much delay was introduced by each tie-off, and it was significant.

The other reason to keep line a little slack is that it doesn't break as easily. Any sharp edge will sever taut line very easily - as I have discovered more than once. When you're on the wrong side of the break, it becomes a powerful incentive to lay your line a little slacker in future.

Andy

since I think somebody asked... I just pulled out the ball of line and untangled and measured it... just over 80' of guideline comprised of 3 different sections... perhaps this happens on a regular basis. Of course I don't think it was 80' of linear penetration, as the line was loose.

I'd call 911.