Would you practice "cave diving" in a quarry?

No I haven't been drinking, but there are actually plans in the works to create an overhead environment a couple of hundred feet in length at Gilboa Quarry in Ohio http://www.divegilboa.com/

The plan is to sink numerous sections (many of which are already stack up on the banks of the quarry) of Box Culverts to create the tunnel/cave.

http://www.modcon.com/images/culvert.jpg

Mike the owner of Gilboa was explaining his basic plan around a campfire at the Great Lakes Wrecking Crew's bi-annual fall Meet-N-Greet at the quarry this past weekend. While Mike has made many upgrades over the years and the place is quite deep compared to most diveable quarries as over 125' deep is some spots, I for one don't know how this will all play out. With the throngs of open water students and newbie divers that invade the place on summer weekends, it will be difficult if not impossible to keep untrained divers out of the system. Even with plans to add rock structures and sand inside the culvert sections it seems a mighty large undertaking for a unknown return.

There was a discussion to do the same thing in Florida for training purposes, to reduce damage to the popular training caves. IIRC, the quarries were near Branford, FL.

Tracy and I practice cave diving skills on most of our open water dives, since we live 1500 miles from north Florida and only get to do about 40 real cave dives a year. But we don't need real overhead to practice skills. Running line in a river keeps us used to dealing with flow, and oozy mucky pond bottoms are great for tuning up the anti-silting techniques.

A couple hundred feet of concrete tunnel might make quarry diving more interesting, but it's not necessary for cave diving practice. And it sure ain't a cave.

Mike

Interesting thought. What if the intro cert was changed so divers would have the option to perform the first two dives in a manmade cave environment--manmade overhead, before completing the last two dives in a natural overhead environment?

Mike is actually quite the business man (everything is ala cart at Gilboa - you even pay per person for a camp site), he would love to corner the local market by being able support at least some elements of cave certification.

I suggested he contact one of the NACD directors to discuss the concept. The first issues that I see are that while a cave of sort could be created, the nature of the culverts would make for a very short cavern zone and a lost line drill would not be very challenging.

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Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Interesting thought. What if the intro cert was changed so divers would have the option to perform the first two dives in a manmade cave environment--manmade overhead, before completing the last two dives in a natural overhead environment?

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Originally Posted by kidsdream

...I suggested he contact one of the NACD directors to discuss the concept. ....

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Tell him to try Wes Skiles.

Ahhhh! That's explains it! We were at Gilboa doing an AOW class for a couple students this weekend. We were wondering what the concrete culverts were for and I kept meaning to ask Jody.........

Kind of like a wave pool for surfing, sounds like fun to dive, not as fun as a real cave but way better than OW, I suppose.

As for safety, I think it should be drilled in the head of divers who do not have the training to stay out of OH environments, but it would not be any more dangerous than all the cavern zones & wrecks being dived every day all over the world anyway.

Nothing wrong with practicing in such environments, but a cave card is a cave card. Add a little silt on the floor + walls + ceiling, a little overhead environment that's lower than you like, and a little pressure from not destroying something of perfection that Mother Nature created, and...

You can't do this stuff with virtual reality and you can't do it in a controlled environment. A cave is a cave is a cave. It's like being married - until you actually try it you can't imagine what it's like - and how hard it is - to actually do it.

I used to practice cave diving techniques and skills in 15-20' fresh water in Arizona lakes before I moved to North Florida. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't think training in a manmade environment is appropriate, though. They even tried it at Vortex and it didn't work. Plans are to remove the manmade caverns in Vortex.

Just make the dives at night, run lines and assume everything over you is cave ceiling.

IMHO, since the run of Vortex was once navigable before the construction of the dam, all of the crap in the basin at Vortex is on public property anyway and should be removed. I would like to see a certified survey showing their property lines where the water is included and a permit for the dam and dredging. I am such an ass.

There's another quarry in the area that has a stone crusher tower that is underwater. It has a tunnel that requires a waiver be signed....now granted they can't police it, but if you have a mishap and no waiver signed......

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Originally Posted by OutlawCaver

Just make the dives at night, run lines and assume everything over you is cave ceiling.

IMHO, since the run of Vortex was once navigable before the construction of the dam, all of the crap in the basin at Vortex is on public property anyway and should be removed. I would like to see a certified survey showing their property lines where the water is included and a permit for the dam and dredging. I am such an ass.

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And I think we should pull the grate out of Ginnie (volunteers?), but I'm afraid neither of us will get our way :?

In all seriousness, is there a legit reason for a grate to be installed in Ginnie? I mean I can't imagine it being worse than Royal, and Royal isnt grated, nor should it be IMO. Legal repercussions for starting a "Ginnie restoration project"? :smt102

The guy who is doing the installation is one of my instructors. He's trying to do several things. Firstly he wants to replicate a cavern environment for teaching line drills and cave skills. There will be offshoots and T's in the "cave". It will also have Fiberglass features within the culverts.

He's an NACD instructor and is trying to allow for more training in the simulated cave to get the students up to speed and kicking properly before they get in an actual cave. Just another tool in the toolbox, not intended as a shortcut for training. It's meant to enhance the preparation process.

They're trying to refine a safety process before it's installed as well, they don't want it to become a danger. I know many who dislike the owner, but I for one commend Mike for his genuine concern for the divers who frequent his site.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

And I think we should pull the grate out of Ginnie (volunteers?), but I'm afraid neither of us will get our way :?

In all seriousness, is there a legit reason for a grate to be installed in Ginnie? I mean I can't imagine it being worse than Royal, and Royal isnt grated, nor should it be IMO. Legal repercussions for starting a "Ginnie restoration project"? :smt102

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Ginnie used to have the highest fatality record of any cave. IIRC, there were around 30 deaths there before that grate was put in. The fatalities prompted Gilcrest county into passing a law against cave diving. It was only repealed a few years ago.

The ONLY reason we can dive anywhere in Gilcrest county is because we, the cave divers, convinced the landowner that Ginnie would be safe with the grate. It was a small price to pay to keep access to Devil's Eye.

The idea is great although the plans on how to make side tunnels is still very sketchy. Also I don't think self policing will work unless the area is seperated from the rest of the quarry.

I do like Mike and this may certainly be his most ambitious project yet.

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Originally Posted by Meister481

The guy who is doing the installation is one of my instructors. He's trying to do several things. Firstly he wants to replicate a cavern environment for teaching line drills and cave skills. There will be offshoots and T's in the "cave". It will also have Fiberglass features within the culverts.

He's an NACD instructor and is trying to allow for more training in the simulated cave to get the students up to speed and kicking properly before they get in an actual cave. Just another tool in the toolbox, not intended as a shortcut for training. It's meant to enhance the preparation process.

They're trying to refine a safety process before it's installed as well, they don't want it to become a danger. I know many who dislike the owner, but I for one commend Mike for his genuine concern for the divers who frequent his site.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

And I think we should pull the grate out of Ginnie (volunteers?), but I'm afraid neither of us will get our way :?

In all seriousness, is there a legit reason for a grate to be installed in Ginnie? I mean I can't imagine it being worse than Royal, and Royal isnt grated, nor should it be IMO. Legal repercussions for starting a "Ginnie restoration project"? :smt102

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OW divers won't stay out of the cave zone at Vortex. Pull the Ginnie grate and people will start dying.

How are they going to keep unqualified divers out?

Sounds like a death (or two) waiting to happen. That site is too popular with low-cert divers.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

How are they going to keep unqualified divers out?

Sounds like a death (or two) waiting to happen. That site is too popular with low-cert divers.

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A grate..... lol

They are considering installing a gate on the end. Last person locks the gate behind them after a search of the interior. It's going to be a long process to install the tiles and get them properly aligned.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

How are they going to keep unqualified divers out?

Sounds like a death (or two) waiting to happen. That site is too popular with low-cert divers.

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Ask Eric if he has a brother, he does a fine job over at the Devils area of the park.

A rather obvious solution Andrew, but I'll let you slide since you're officially over the hill now. :smt081


I kind of wish it were like Vortex. Then maybe certain hours leave the grate open and prohibit OW divers. Of course this would require the assistance of Ginnie, who I'm sure are completely happy with the cave grated and getting $30 a pop for OW divers.

Given that the numbers of cave divers are going to continue to increase While the number of diveable and open systems is fairly static, there is some validity to the argument that cave diver trainee could use a place to demonstrate they have the minimum skills needed not to damage a cave before they go in a real one.

Then again, we have to consider things like lost line drills, lights out air shares etc and whether to continue them in natural caves as part of the training process, and if so in which ones. But artificial caves could take some of the pressure off current sacrificial training caves for some early phases of cave training.

You can learn and practice a lot of cave skills in a quarry. After all if you can swim 3" off a silt bottom in a quarry without raising any silt you can do it in a cave as well. Many quarries have rock walls that work well for line placement excercises, lights out line following drills, etc and can do so in a manner that requires significant bouyancy adjustment. And you can also set up lines and then practice installing / removing jump lines, etc.

Doing it in a system made up of culverts would add an element of confinement, but it would probably be pretty two dimensional and take away from the challenge of precision buoyancy management as it would probably get built in a flat section of quarry.

If you could set the system up with changes in depth, add some restrictions, etc, it would be more realistic, but it would also make it much more hazardous for the untrained who will get in it.

The idea of setting the artificial cave up with a locked gate would mean the system would have to be very linear to prevent a search prior to exit from missing a diver still in the system - as locking a diver in would be a business ending lawsuit. That lack of complexity in the "system" would greatly reduce it's usefulness for training as it would eliminate any possibility of any meaningful jumps or circuits. And if it is anything other than a straight line, too small for two divers to pass, sooner or later some diver is going to get lazy and lock someone in. A gate is not the way to go.

I'm quite familiar w/ Gilboa.... There is generally no reason to go to the deep side, unless your doing a tech class or simulated tech dives to keep up practice.... And I shake my head when I see AOW classes do the deep dive there... I'd much rather see a swim to the plane, water tower, tubes, then down the road as a more gradual approach vs. the freight elevator to 100'..... (yes - I know about the intermediate platform in place now...)

To be useful as a cave environment, it would need to be ~1K', with multiple jumps\branches\offshoots.... (Perhaps these would be OW egress points.....?)

There is already some overhead, with the bus and the plane, albeit quite short.

-Tim

UTD is already teaching the first portion of their cave and wreck courses in OW. They call it "overhead protocols".
http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/pag...head-protocols

Its 3 days and none of its done in simulated or artificial overheads (which are unnecessary IMHO at this point). Cave1 and Wreck1 are an additional 3 days.

Would I practice cave diving in a quarry?? Well let me just tell you:

I would not practice in a quarry
I would not do it, I am not sorry
I would not practice in a sunken boat
I would not do it, I don't need the rote

I would not practice in a sunken pipe
No more than searching for a snipe
I don't dive quarry's cause I'm just too old
I do not do it, they are too damn cold

Yeah I'm a woosy, you can call me girlie
I'd rather dive JB, with Sludge and Shirley!

:rollguy

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Would I practice cave diving in a quarry?? Well let me just tell you:

I would not practice in a quarry
I would not do it, I am not sorry
I would not practice in a sunken boat
I would not do it, I don't need the rote

I would not practice in a sunken pipe
No more than searching for a snipe
I don't dive quarry's cause I'm just too old
I do not do it, they are too damn cold

Yeah I'm a woosy, you can call me girlie
I'd rather dive JB, with Sludge and Shirley!

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that was pretty funny....

Dive safe,

Celia

PS and I agree about quarries and silly sunken pipes....

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Would I practice cave diving in a quarry?? Well let me just tell you:

I would not practice in a quarry
I would not do it, I am not sorry
I would not practice in a sunken boat
I would not do it, I don't need the rote

I would not practice in a sunken pipe
No more than searching for a snipe
I don't dive quarry's cause I'm just too old
I do not do it, they are too damn cold

Yeah I'm a woosy, you can call me girlie
I'd rather dive JB, with Sludge and Shirley!

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Too bad it isn't a limerick, you could enter it in the contest :-D

But it would be way more fun to dive if you could not get to any caves. I would go, as I would go to a wave pool if I could not get in the ocean to surf.
If the "cave" had multiple tunnels and stuff I bet it would be a lot of fun.
Kind of like diving a mine, but less big.
A mine is artificial but looks a lot more like a cave though.
I would definitely go dive the "cave" I am sure it would be fun, an "adult" water park of sorts...

I think subway tunnels after global warming would be better, bigger passages.

But on the subject If I was not blessed enough to live in north Florida i would practice in a quarry.

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Originally Posted by jdsffa

I think subway tunnels after global warming would be better, bigger passages.

But on the subject If I was not blessed enough to live in north Florida i would practice in a quarry.

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I have often thought the DC Metro would be much more interesting if they would just shut the pumps off and let it all flood.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

I would definitely go dive the "cave" I am sure it would be fun, an "adult" water park of sorts...

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Like Telford back a few years ago, or maybe Ginnie during redneck mating season.

Originally Posted by jdsffa
I think subway tunnels after global warming would be better, bigger passages.

But on the subject If I was not blessed enough to live in north Florida i would practice in a quarry.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I have often thought the DC Metro would be much more interesting if they would just shut the pumps off and let it all flood.

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I too often have "water world" thoughts while in big cities. Sometimes when I'm up in the NYC metro area for a job, and I have my dive gear -- and I'm stuck in traffic in the Holland Tunnel, I think about if I could access my gear from the back of my Land Rover if the tunnel flooded and then could I swim out and survive.
I counted on no vis water and also noticed lines running along the top of the tunnel that I could use by feel to swim out. Could I make it...? Maybe, maybe not but I sure would give it the old college try and then some.

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Originally Posted by Meister481

Like Telford back a few years ago, or maybe Ginnie during redneck mating season.

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Argh! "Adult Water Park" visuals like that, too close to bedtime! I'm a little frightened of "what dreams may come".

I may have to report them on SG's Weird Dreams thread.

Mike

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Originally Posted by MORGAN

Argh! "Adult Water Park" visuals like that, too close to bedtime! I'm a little frightened of "what dreams may come".

I may have to report them on SG's Weird Dreams thread.

Mike

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Noooooooooo! PLEASE Nooooooooooooo! :rollguy

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Originally Posted by OutlawCaver

IMHO, since the run of Vortex was once navigable before the construction of the dam, all of the crap in the basin at Vortex is on public property anyway and should be removed. I would like to see a certified survey showing their property lines where the water is included and a permit for the dam and dredging. I am such an ass.

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The current run at Vortex is completely man-made. The original run ran straight back into Otter Creek pretty much at its nearest point. They dug the new run, made the dam, added a pump, and filled the original run. Then they dug up a big mudhole and broke into the aquiffer there. :)


I agree, the basin should be cleared. :)

having been building sets for Movies, live theatre and displays for twenty years I have build numberous "caves and rock formations out of spray foam over steel frame armitures. I often thought it would be cool to build one to use as an training cave, contolled environment. Even a scultpted artifical reef. To go a set further it might be cool to have the outside scultped to be say an Neptune awakening off the lake bed while the inside matches any cave You want. Just be careful when You exit the nostrils. Replace the foam with marine cement and the process is the same. If I could build them to be shipped and reassembled in movie sets, theatres or stores there is no reason it can't be built on land then reassembled by divers on the bottom of a quarry, lake or ocean. Its just a question of time, money and labor. Which is always the big question.
MA

Regarding MA's post above, my buddy and I were talking last night about the expense involved for this project at Gilboa. Mike has done an excellent job at Gilboa since he became the owner, but he is notorious for having multiple jobs going at once and never quite completing them before he moves to the next project. Just a peek in the ladies bathroom will confirm this fact for you (an ongoing project over years, not months). Last summer, on a lark, my buddy just mentally noted all the jobs left uncompleted and his list was vast from one out of 3 pieces of door moulding missing, to flooring partially completed, siding left half finished, etc. He wasn't being critical, just found it humorous. Mike works hard and long hours, but he's got a lot going on all at the same time.

That being said, we were discussing where he's going to put it; how he's going to put it (crane and lift bags??); and the money to make it all happen. Seems like it will be a project in the works for many years to come. Currently the concrete culverts are sitting in the area normally reserved for the DUI Dog Days annual May-June event, so something has to be done with them before next May/June or he'll have to move DUI to another part of the quarry....which isn't likely from a logistical standpoint.

I'm not "in the know" on this, just a casual observer with an opinion or two from what I've observed.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I have often thought the DC Metro would be much more interesting if they would just shut the pumps off and let it all flood.

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Welcome to an FBI watchlist :roll:

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Originally Posted by Me

Just a peek in the ladies bathroom will confirm this fact for you

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I wouldn't recommend this. You can get in some SERIOUS trouble. :smt102

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

I wouldn't recommend this. You can get in some SERIOUS trouble. :smt102

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He speaks from experience, I'm sure!

Last time I was at Gilboa,He was up tight about diving the deep end
and now adding a cave? this is basic open water country.
Yes, I have cave certification.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Ask Eric if he has a brother, he does a fine job over at the Devils area of the park.

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It's one thing to police people from entering a spring from a small spring run. It's completely different when the "cave" is submerged in a large quarry and can't be seen from the surface.

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I kind of wish it were like Vortex. Then maybe certain hours leave the grate open and prohibit OW divers. Of course this would require the assistance of Ginnie, who I'm sure are completely happy with the cave grated and getting $30 a pop for OW divers.

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Ginnie could restrict divers from their land and they would still make lots of money. Divers are more of a headache than anything else. It's the tubers, campers, swimmers, etc that bring money into that business.

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Originally Posted by RN

It's one thing to police people from entering a spring from a small spring run. It's completely different when the "cave" is submerged in a large quarry and can't be seen from the surface.

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If the grate goes, the OW divers have to go too....that was what I was implying with Eric #2 patrolling and saying that wont happen because it would be lost income. I can't see this ever happening.