Death at P1 because of not running a line to OW?

Has there been at least one death at P1 that was directly attributed to not running a line at the entrance? My cave instructor told it has happened. After being to P1 and nearly feeling dum-dum belonging to the mere ~15% or so who clogs the entrance with reels (and reading the recent threads), I wonder if this story was true or just a good “learning tool”?

This is what I was told. Someone diving solo got in trouble in Peacock and ended up in no lights situation. When s/he arrived back in the cavern it was dark. S/he did get back to the OW part but then bumped into the straight wall outside and must have thought that s/he was still in the cavern and turned back looking for exit. Eventually s/he was found dead in the cavern.

I do not know much detail as this story was just briefly referred to when my instructor pointed to the dangers of believing there are safe places not to run primary lines. According to the instructor the death was clearly attributed to the missing primary line. I am not sure how it would have been known the victim had been to the OW part? Algae marks?? Whether or not the story is true (I’d be interested in knowing if it is), I think it is an excellent story to share.

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Originally Posted by alias

the mere ~15% or so who clogs the entrance with reels

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The line at P1 begins in the open water zone. Where does your line begin and end? :smt102

You should NOT feel "dum-dum" because you run a line.

Since I remember.... you cannot start a dive in the park after a certain time, "when ...arrived at the cavern, it was dark" ? Would that be dark because it was no longer daytime or because the cavern was silted out?

Anyway, the line these days runs out of the overhead or darn near like Russell said, 10 years ago it was WAY back by the signs....

Need to ask your instructor for more details.... made up stories are silly....(my opinion, YMMV).

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

The line at P1 begins in the open water zone. Where does your line begin and end? :smt102

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So do you guys hate us who put a line in places like P1? You think we are newbies or worse?

I put it where my instructor told it would be good to put it, in the open open water zone, right hand side for Pothole, left hand side for Peanut Tunnel. Where if I lift my head I won't hit it into a rock whichever way I happen to tilt it.

I was wondering if the accident the instructor was referring to happened when the lines were in current position, too. That's what he was indicating - that the line was close and it still happened. I think it was dark because the diver was so delayed and thus maybe also had only a limited time to back track for more methodical second attempt after leaving the gold line and making the mistake of not noticing that s/he had arrived in OW.

If that incident happened, it was way before when I started cave diving in 1996. Solo diving and night diving at Peacock had long since been banned by then.

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Originally Posted by alias

So do you guys hate us who put a line in places like P1? You think we are newbies or worse?

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NO, definitely NO!!!! I do not think anyone feels that way & if they do they are not worth considering.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

If that incident happened, it was way before when I started cave diving in 1996. Solo diving and night diving at Peacock had long since been banned by then.

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Would that mean the line was further back too if it was that long ago?

I am not sure about the solo part, could have been a pair, I seem to remember it was one diver only. I am pretty sure it was not a night dive. It was not supposed to go that late.

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Originally Posted by alias

Would that mean the line was further back too if it was that long ago?

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The lines at P1 used to start in the Peanut Restriction 350' back, on the one side, and at 65' the bottom of the crack on the other side (about 100' line distance).

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

way before when I started

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Where was my brain here?

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Originally Posted by alias

Would that mean the line was further back too if it was that long ago?

I am not sure about the solo part, could have been a pair, I seem to remember it was one diver only. I am pretty sure it was not a night dive. It was not supposed to go that late.

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Dude, did you read my post about the line having been by the signs way back?

Yes, they were way back and for a reason... pretty much like OG continues to be...

Ask your instructor again and get details, maybe it happened, maybe not...

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Where was my brain here?

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Was it supposed to be elsewhere? :-)

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by alias

So do you guys hate us who put a line in places like P1? You think we are newbies or worse?

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Hello Alias,

Let me add that the safety factor of the line is three fold.

1. You are assured of a continued access to a free ascent in the event your visibility is impaired in any way. (i.e. silt, dark, injury, mask failure, thunderstorm, no known reported eclipses - but possible)

2. You have a trail that can be followed in the event of a problem like buddy separation. Rather than confusion you or a follow-up team attempting a rescue will be able to tell where you are rather that making critical and possibly wrong decisions when coming to a visual jump or in P1's case tunnel?

3. You are gaining great practice at using a reel! There is an inordinate number of boogered up safety reels found at recoveries. Practice makes perfect. Your reel skills need to be second nature.

I admire people that take the time to thread a reel in crowded cave openings. It tells me that they learned well and are looking forward to an enjoyable dive that has just about all the "what ifs" addressed in their dive plan.

There are line committees in just about every system. These people work hard, argue the pros and cons of the start of a gold line or the placement throughout the cave. While they don't always agree on some individual points they all agree that the lines are there to ensure a safe exit.

ITS NOT ABOUT GETTING INTO A SYSTEM ITS ABOUT GETTING OUT!

All the best. /Ken

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Originally Posted by Gary

The lines at P1 used to start in the Peanut Restriction 350' back, on the one side, and at 65' the bottom of the crack on the other side (about 100' line distance).

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Exactly! It was like this when I did my full cave in 2003.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

The line at P1 begins in the open water zone. Where does your line begin and end? :smt102

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It hasn't always been there.

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Where was my brain here?

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Clearly not there... err here...

:)

Alias,

Two observations:

1) a search through the accident files will answer your question about did it happen or not. I do know that many years ago there was an open water diver fatality (memory tells me double fatality) at P1 - complete silt out, lost and running out of air in the cavern. This brings us to...

2) A complete silt out is very possible in the cavern zone. I mean a silt out with all of the viz of chocolate milk. In 1994 or 95 I was working on my instructor rating with Steve Berman as my sponsor. I was assisting him with an Intro class. There were three students. At P1 one one of them ran the primary from a log that sat just under the steps right at the cavern entrance. The main line in the main tunnel began behind the sign. The student team tied off there. They made it almost to the Pothole when two idiots on scooters (this was before DPV's were banned in the park) blew by us, prop wash down of course, and completely destroyed viz in seconds. Great fun for this class. All three got on the line and I took up the rear. Out we went - ok on the line - all of the way out. Viz in the cavern was 0! At the primary tie off I knew I was looking out at the surface but could not see anything. It was as black as in the cave. The lead student had the presence of mind to tie off a safety and unreel his way to the surface while the rest continued with an ok on that line. Once everyone was on the surface I went back to retrieve the primary reel. When I wound my way back to the primary tie at the entrance I still could not see a thing.

Although scooters cannot be used there anymore, lots of things could send silt and clay clouds into the water and flow at Peacock while you are in the cave. Some natural, some bad divers. I was recently exiting P1 with two students when an inbound cave class on CCR came at us like locomotives flying with hugh sweeping flutter kicks trashing the viz behind them and never thinking to yield to the exiting team. We had to get out of their way. The woman leading actually waved at us before blinding us with her light and their instructor merely shrugged at me and kept on going. While viz was not destroyed it was reduced and we got to exit in their mess. Things are not what they used to be in the caves and you should know a line leads ALL of the way out.

My point is that a complete unexpected loss of viz is easily possible at the P1 cavern. You should always run a line. If someone criticizes you for this just ignore them. They are not worth wasting your time, thought, or feelings on.

I have seen completely zero viz in cavern zones on a couple of occasions in the 17 years I have been cave diving. It can happen. If it does it should only be a slight nuisance, not an emergency. Run a line.

Cheers,

Chris

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Originally Posted by Chris Laughrey

You should always run a line. If someone criticizes you for this just ignore them. They are not worth wasting your time, thought, or feelings on.

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Peer pressure is not going to stop me from running a line. I do not want to come across like a whiner but you experienced divers should know that it can put a little extra pressure on us newbies to read some of the comments about ‘unnecessary reels’. In addition to P1 discussion, I have read things like: “Why would someone run a line in the Ear on busy weekend when there are already 6 reels in place, ridiculous".

Well, some of us run a line every time. I try to be courteous, and I might check both Ear and Eye but if both already have them 6 reels in, am I out of luck and have to waste my time waiting for someone to get out from their 5 hour deco dive? I came from far and paid a good fee to dive, and I am diving dammit! I am sure my not-yet-great reel skills will really shine when I jam in that 7th reel but in it goes! Roll your eyes on that, eh!

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Originally Posted by Chris Laughrey

You should always run a line. If someone criticizes you for this just ignore them. They are not worth wasting your time, thought, or feelings on.

I have seen completely zero viz in cavern zones on a couple of occasions in the 17 years I have been cave diving. It can happen. If it does it should only be a slight nuisance, not an emergency. Run a line.

Cheers,

Chris

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Chris,


Great advice and well said.

I think it was John Orlowski that did a multiple recovery where the exit was missed and the untrained team went in the direction of P2.

I seem to recall the incident with the scooters at P1 and even heard reports of badgers screwing up the cavern. /Ken

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Originally Posted by alias

Peer pressure is not going to stop me from running a line. I do not want to come across like a whiner but you experienced divers should know that it can put a little extra pressure on us newbies to read some of the comments about ‘unnecessary reels’. In addition to P1 discussion, I have read things like: “Why would someone run a line in the Ear on busy weekend when there are already 6 reels in place, ridiculous".

Well, some of us run a line every time. I try to be courteous, and I might check both Ear and Eye but if both already have them 6 reels in, am I out of luck and have to waste my time waiting for someone to get out from their 5 hour deco dive? I came from far and paid a good fee to dive, and I am diving dammit! I am sure my not-yet-great reel skills will really shine when I jam in that 7th reel but in it goes! Roll your eyes on that, eh!

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My only suggestion for a busy weekend is find someone that is already there, and share the reel if they are going to be there a while. Make sure all parties know the plan, but its a s simple as putting a cookie on the line on the way in, and taking the cookie off the line on the way out. We did this at little river a few weeks ago, and it worked out great.

The other argument I have heard about running the lines to OW is the possibility of being jumped on when you are doing your reel work. I have seen quite a few people just jump in at Peacock without even looking down. The other argument, and granted this was at Telford, was that there are swimmers there, and they can get tangled up in the line if ran all the way to OW. We was told its basically our choice to help our selves with the line, or think of the swimmers safety as well. We was also told there was an instance where a swimmer jumped in, got tangled in the line and drowned. Again, not sure if that was one of those stories people tell to try and make a point, or if there is truth to it.

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Originally Posted by deepdiverbob

The other argument I have heard about running the lines to OW is the possibility of being jumped on when you are doing your reel work. I have seen quite a few people just jump in at Peacock without even looking down.

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Yes, I actually witnessed this myself. Some guys just gabbing and then plunging in without looking when two other divers where right under them, coming for exit that time. Sick. Buddy should always be ready to dash up and scream I guess. (On the other hand, I was also annoyed at another pair of divers who did nearly 15 minutes of extended stops with extremely slow ascent from 6 ft to surface in the OW part with no attention/space to other exiting teams behind them - nobody threatened to jump them... ;) Like come on, it's a small space, some common sense BOTH ways)

IMHO best for that side would be a rail to block the giant stride, and entry only from the side because the limits of the OW part but who am I to say. I am glad there are stairs.

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Originally Posted by Chris Laughrey

a search through the accident files will answer your question about did it happen or not. I do know that many years ago there was an open water diver fatality (memory tells me double fatality) at P1 - complete silt out, lost and running out of air in the cavern. This brings us to...

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i'm not quite sure about this. i haven't had any luck with searching with a purpose, just random reading. i'm glad they're up in any way, shape, or form, but i haven't found them very searchable.

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Originally Posted by alias

IMHO best for that side would be a rail to block the giant stride, and entry only from the side because the limits of the OW part but who am I to say. I am glad there are stairs.

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Putting a rail up patches a symptom. (Divers doing a giant stride without looking)

It does nothing to solve the problem. (Inconsiderate and possibly poorly trained divers)

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Originally Posted by alias

I have read things like: “Why would someone run a line in the Ear on busy weekend when there are already 6 reels in place, ridiculous".

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Always running a line is one thing. Running a line so that it becomes an impediment or danger to others is another.

One of the things that is (or should be) taught in cave class is to recognize when adding another line would become an impediment to others. Lines already in place have the right of way and it is your responsibility to run yours in a way not to interfere with the others.

If you can't run a reel without doing so it is your responsibility to call the dive and come back when you can run your reel without interfering with others.

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

i'm not quite sure about this. i haven't had any luck with searching with a purpose, just random reading. i'm glad they're up in any way, shape, or form, but i haven't found them very searchable.

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I've had luck using Google's "site search" to find things here that I can't find using the built in search. However, searching IUCRR's site for "Peacock" doesn't find it.

http://www.google.com/search?rls=ig&...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

-Tom

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Originally Posted by Gary

Always running a line is one thing. Running a line so that it becomes an impediment or danger to others is another.

One of the things that is (or should be) taught in cave class is to recognize when adding another line would become an impediment to others. Lines already in place have the right of way and it is your responsibility to run yours in a way not to interfere with the others.

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I think you are twisting the message a bit. I am talking about giving the evil eye to someone who might not be perfect but wants to run their own line in places that someone else thinks it’s futile. Not talking about creating spider webs or not being responsible. I have been to site where there was one reel in and that line was a hazard to everyone (and it wasn’t a line by a newbie judging by the deco bottles either). It was very hard to run ANY line around it in any sensible way, several distinguished divers muttered about it. Clueless and rude people tend not to care – or maybe running a line certain way is a clever way of getting the cave for yourself for the day

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Originally Posted by Gary

If you can't run a reel without doing so it is your responsibility to call the dive and come back when you can run your reel without interfering with others.

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One could interpret that quite negatively on a bad day.

Unfortunately, deco bottles have nothing to do with experience. Lots of newbie divers are jumping into dives that are way beyond their experience level. But that's a whole other thread...

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Originally Posted by RN

Unfortunately, deco bottles have nothing to do with experience. Lots of newbie divers are jumping into dives that are way beyond their experience level. But that's a whole other thread...

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True, I should not even assume they weren't Intro level cave divers as nobody is stopping anyone dragging bottles there or someone else entering without laying a line :roll:

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Originally Posted by alias

I think you are twisting the message a bit. I am talking about giving the evil eye to someone who might not be perfect but wants to run their own line in places that someone else thinks it’s futile. Not talking about creating spider webs or not being responsible. I have been to site where there was one reel in and that line was a hazard to everyone (and it wasn’t a line by a newbie judging by the deco bottles either). It was very hard to run ANY line around it in any sensible way, several distinguished divers muttered about it. Clueless and rude people tend not to care – or maybe running a line certain way is a clever way of getting the cave for yourself for the day

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Brings a question to mind ...

I understand that the rule is you don't mess with someone else's line, but if someone's run a line in such a way that it's a hazard to other divers, would it not be reasonable to just reroute it a bit to remove the hazard potential? I mean, if you're leaving it there, and if they can follow it out when they return, what's the issue?

Or is that simply not something you'd ever consider doing? And if not, why not?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

As for myself....
I NEVER touch another person's line etc...
Even if it's blowing in the wind , so to speak.
(I guess that comes from my instructors and mentors , NOT TO TOUCH another person's gear/stuff etc...Unless of course , it's an emergency)

But that's just me. I always try to make sure my tie-offs etc are good and tight. Actually , I was working with Cindy the other night practicing tie-ing off to the sides of the tunnel (in the catacombs) , keeping the line off of the floor etc.

I am always trying to learn new things. (not new to others , new to myself) :D

To all: thanks so much for such an interesting thread. At least for me , it helps me rethink things and keeps me MORE PRUDENT.

Jean

P.S. I don't dive Ginnie a lot , but I have seen some pretty nasty spagetti lines in the Ear. I'll leave the rest alone for now , since I don't dive the cave system that much to comment further.

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Originally Posted by NWGratefulDiver

Brings a question to mind ...

I understand that the rule is you don't mess with someone else's line, but if someone's run a line in such a way that it's a hazard to other divers, would it not be reasonable to just reroute it a bit to remove the hazard potential? I mean, if you're leaving it there, and if they can follow it out when they return, what's the issue?

Or is that simply not something you'd ever consider doing? And if not, why not?

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I would like more discussion on this too.

As for myself, I have touched another person's line already. It was flapping in the wind in the MIDDLE of the Eye, slack. If anybody, myself included had to make a hasty emergency exit through there it would have been a huge entanglement hazard. So while putting our own line in, we tidied that line in by pulling it under couple of rocks making sure it could be followed blind if anyone needed to. During my course I was taught to avoid touching others stuff but also not leave obvious safety hazards in cave.

I did not know what to heck to do with one line in P1 though. It was laid like a humongous Z. It was like someone first thought to go to Pothole side starting the line in OW from the Peanut side, then in the end changed their mind and zagged over to Peanut line anyway. It was pretty much impossible for anyone not to cross it because it covered the whole opening. In the end we did what everyone else did and just rudely crossed it because I am not comfortable taking someone’s whole handiwork out and redoing it.

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Originally Posted by alias

I did not know what to heck to do with one line in P1 though. It was laid like a humongous Z. It was like someone first thought to go to Pothole side starting the line in OW from the Peanut side, then in the end changed their mind and zagged over to Peanut line anyway.

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This happens when people's plan is to enter and exit on one tunnel, but think that in an emergency they may be closer to exiting on the other, and want a continuous line to o/w off of both main lines.

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Originally Posted by Marc Bryan

This happens when people's plan is to enter and exit on one tunnel, but think that in an emergency they may be closer to exiting on the other, and want a continuous line to o/w off of both main lines.

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Oh okay. You would zag the line in proximity of the other gold line but not loop your reel into it physically? The reel line was not tied into both lines, it just swooped towards the other line, then went for the other instead. I can see that you'd hit the flat part of the Z fairly easily coming off the line where the reel was not but considering it was P1 one has to ask what did that volume of line really add...

Nope. The situation I described tied the reel into both gold lines, zig zagging.

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Originally Posted by alias

I think you are twisting the message a bit. I am talking about giving the evil eye to someone who might not be perfect but wants to run their own line in places that someone else thinks it’s futile.

One could interpret that quite negatively on a bad day.

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It is good to "always run a line". I completely support someone choosing to do so BUT running 6 lines through a restriction can be dangerous also.

People running so many lines into Devil's that the lines themselves become a danger is actually a pet peeve of mine. Often when Devil's is extremely crowded the Spring's management places a line in and places a slate indicating it is a "temporary permanent line".

If there is a temporary permanent line in place to allow more divers to enter the spring without creating a mess of many lines running through a limited thoroughfare. If it is not crowded and another line can be added without interfering with others it is fine to run a line in.

However, running a line in interfering and inconveniencing others is not "futility" it is DANGEROUS. "maintain a continuous guideline to open water" does not mean you can "always run a line" even if doing so violates proper line protocol and/or endangers or inconveniences others.


"Always running a line" does not relieve one of the responsibility to do so correctly. The actual rule is "maintain a continuous guideline to open water". I'm not sure that running a 7th line where several well run lines in good condition are already in place is required.

If one feels uncomfortable not having a line specifically run by themselves but running an additional line poses a danger to others there are other choices:
Come back later when it is less busy.
Use another entrance to the system.
Visit another cave system.organize with another group about sharing their line.

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Originally Posted by Gary

However, running a line in interfering and inconveniencing others is not "futility" it is DANGEROUS. "maintain a continuous guideline to open water" does not mean you can "always run a line" even if doing so violates proper line protocol and/or endangers or inconveniences others. .

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I think you need to reread about the futility.

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Originally Posted by Gary

"Always running a line" does not relieve one of the responsibility to do so correctly. The actual rule is "maintain a continuous guideline to open water". I'm not sure that running a 7th line where several well run lines in good condition are already in place is required. .

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I don’t understand the automatic assumption that the n:th reeler would try to do a shoddy job. I actually want to put my own reel in because A) I want the practice, B) How on earth do I know those 6 reels are going to be in place when I come out if I have not talked to the guys who were already in water when I arrived? It does not matter how great the other lines are in if they aren’t going to be there when I need them. Given that I am doing intro dives, most likely at least one of them would be there but if I can’t confirm, it’s a no go for me.

And still, it’s not just that “I want my own reel in “, I want to learn how not to be an impediment to others and practice every chance I get. Don’t worry, I avoid Ginnie on busy days like plague. Even on slow days the entrance seems to get pretty line-y. I sure hope they give refunds if the attitude is to “come back another day if it’s too busy” or I’ll be turned away pretty soon.

I'm not saying "don't run a line". I'm saying that "always have a continuous guideline" and "always running a line" doesn't justify ignoring standard line protocols.

If you run a 7th line in thru the hole you are responsable for making sure it doesn't interfere with other divers or with other teams pulling their lines out, etc. Depending on how the other lines are run into the hole already that could be next to impossiable.

If it is already a dangerous mess adding one more line "safely" may not posiable and isn't justified by wanting to have your own reel also.

It is not at all uncommon to have a temporary permanant line already installed and then 5 other lines run in there by people who just "want to have their own line also" - ignoring the fact that they are creating a dangerous mess.

I haven't read through all of this but hopefully people are still teaching sharing primary reels, at least among non-students. That's a great way to avoid a lot of lines run into the entrance, just by having a simple conversation in the parking lot and another good reason to be friendly and courteous at dive sites, which also seems to be going the way of the dinosaurs.....

Safe diving,

Rich

rich, sounds like an article for the journal.....? I don't get to cave country as much as I used to, but I always used to find people very courteous and friendly in the parking lot. i'll be back in a week, hope things haven't become discourteous and unfriendly during my absence! in any case I can promise one friendly face in the parking lot (unless michael poucher works me too hard!).

-skip

Sharing reels has been discussed. The issue is when you get there and all 6 teams are already in the cave and you're part of the 7th team.

As for Devil's, I realize it's used for training, but so is P1 and classes still run reels back to the signs there, so why not extend the gold line at Devil's to the edge of the OW area in the Ear? Classes could still run primaries there for practice, but divers not in class wouldn't have to spider web the ear with their own lines.

so, remind me again what was the original question in this thread?????

Dive safe,

Celia, donning the Nomex.... :-)

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Originally Posted by RN

Sharing reels has been discussed. The issue is when you get there and all 6 teams are already in the cave and you're part of the 7th team.

As for Devil's, I realize it's used for training, but so is P1 and classes still run reels back to the signs there, so why not extend the gold line at Devil's to the edge of the OW area in the Ear? Classes could still run primaries there for practice, but divers not in class wouldn't have to spider web the ear with their own lines.

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Or you could extend the lines out to open water in Peacock (instead of three feet into the overhead) and cut the line in Devil's back to the Lips.......

Safe diving,

Rich

P.S. Rob, I hear you'll be demonstrating how to run a line in the Ear and Eye for students at Devil's next week anyways, so have fun with it.... :)

I remember seeing a "temporary permanent" line running off the gold line at devil's with a slate reading "to eye" with a large line arrow pointing to (obviously) the eye. The line ended at the deco area. Is this still installed on busy days to accommodate the in the ear, out the eye divers? Has there been any discussion about making it part of the gold line, or has that been done? Seems to me I remember some folks discussing it last time I was down.

I have also seen the gold line run to a bucket sign just inside the chimney before, and several lines run from the log to the sign. What a cluster**** that was. We just shook our heads and decided to forego the line on that dive. It looked like the fishing lines in the bottom of my truck toolbox. Talk about your entanglement hazard. Good luck ok-ing that mess. (Can you imagine the IR on that one? "TRAINED CAVE DIVER BEATEN TO DEATH BY FLOW WHILE TANGLED IN MULTIPLE SAFETY LINES.") Better to just go out the eye!

DD

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Originally Posted by amphipod06

so, remind me again what was the original question in this thread?????

Dive safe,

Celia, donning the Nomex.... :-)

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I have seen the Peacock entrance so green I struggled to find my way out: but 99% of the time, a line in the cavern is only a nuisance for others.

My suggestion is: if you need or want a line, then run it. If not, don't do it.

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Originally Posted by Puttzer

I have seen the Peacock entrance so green I struggled to find my way out: but 99% of the time, a line in the cavern is only a nuisance for others.

My suggestion is: if you need or want a line, then run it. If not, don't do it.

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Succint and to the point, I like that.... :-)

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by Rich

P.S. Rob, I hear you'll be demonstrating how to run a line in the Ear and Eye for students at Devil's next week anyways, so have fun with it.... :)

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I have no problem running a line in Devil's, Ear or Eye. I demonstrate running one in JB to all my classes. It's actually easier to run one in the Ear.