When/With Whom to Dive

I'm sitting here on the computer while a couple of buddies are diving. I was invited along, but declined. I gave a lame excuse and now admit that they intimidate me. They are way better than me in every way, trim, equipment config, gas consumption, ability, skill, etc. The plan was to push a virgin system downstream and lay as much knotted line as possible, then survey on the way out. I know I'd be at thirds way early compared to them and would most likely silt out various area's on the way in (small silty passage - I've been in there to the current EOL), and basically be a third wheel at best and an annoyance at worst. They are very nice and would never say that about me or anyone.

So what would you do? And more generally what, if any, is the cave diver etiquette in this situation.

I guess I could go and be shore support, but that's like watching people eat thanksgiving dinner while staring in the window drooling.

-skip

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Originally Posted by skip

I'm sitting here on the computer while a couple of buddies are diving. I was invited along, but declined. I gave a lame excuse and now admit that they intimidate me. They are way better than me in every way, trim, equipment config, gas consumption, ability, skill, etc. The plan was to push a virgin system downstream and lay as much knotted line as possible, then survey on the way out. I know I'd be at thirds way early compared to them and would most likely silt out various area's on the way in (small silty passage - I've been in there to the current EOL), and basically be a third wheel at best and an annoyance at worst. They are very nice and would never say that about me or anyone.

So what would you do? And more generally what, if any, is the cave diver etiquette in this situation.

I guess I could go and be shore support, but that's like watching people eat thanksgiving dinner while staring in the window drooling.

-skip

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Their initials wouldn't be C&J, would they :-)

If they're diving thirds downstream and surveying out I'd definitely be out. And I'd be pretty blunt about why. They have NO reserves.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

If they're diving thirds downstream and surveying out I'd definitely be out. And I'd be pretty blunt about why. They have NO reserves.

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I *think* the downstream he is talking about is very low flow, and C&J would turn early anyway. They need the gas to survey safely.

The best answer to Skip's question is:
"They invited him, knew his skill level, and *anyone* can turn the dive *anytime*."

From my POV, you may be the best part of the team. The limiting factors you speak of may be the difference of everyone having a great diving and someone getting hurt. I don't think I would worry about it that much, go dive and have a good time.

If i was invited i would go. If they didnt want you to go they wouldnt invite you.

Sounds like a good time to just say "Guys, I appreciate it but that doesn't sound like fun. You go enjoy it. I'd only turn you early and you don't want that."

That way they can calibrate what's fun for you in the future.

At the end of the day there is NO POINT doing dives that aren't fun!

what would I do? I would go :D

Like Kevin said, they know what you are capable of and your skill level, if they did not want you along they'd never said a thing. If you don't feel up to it, that is another thing.
And , as usual, anyone can call the dive at any point for any reason...

Dive safe,

Celia

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Originally Posted by skip

I'm sitting here on the computer while a couple of buddies are diving. I was invited along, but declined. I gave a lame excuse and now admit that they intimidate me. They are way better than me in every way, trim, equipment config, gas consumption, ability, skill, etc. The plan was to push a virgin system downstream and lay as much knotted line as possible, then survey on the way out. I know I'd be at thirds way early compared to them and would most likely silt out various area's on the way in (small silty passage - I've been in there to the current EOL), and basically be a third wheel at best and an annoyance at worst. They are very nice and would never say that about me or anyone.

So what would you do? And more generally what, if any, is the cave diver etiquette in this situation.

I guess I could go and be shore support, but that's like watching people eat thanksgiving dinner while staring in the window drooling.

-skip

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I really appreciate seeing this question. I'm a new cave diver whose SAC is awful using the 108s doubled up with a sling or two. Really awful. Oddly, I dive a single hp 120 with a sling and I'm a .6 but put those doubles on and I'm doing short thirds. I'm ALWAYS super-conscientious about those diving around me. I just got apprentice and before that, I had full cavers always offering to dive with me. I had buddies drive an hour or hour and a half just to dive my sixths. It made no sense to me but I heard over and over shut up and dive. they want to be wet. they want to be inside a cave. they know who and what my capabilities are. I still struggle with it but I dove. I'm becoming a slightly better diver because of the incredible experiences. Last time in CC, I met a great guy named Bill who was testing water quality and all this other neat stuff while at Amigo's with Wayne. Holy crow this guy invited ME to go with him?!@?@ I was about 6 hours away from my flight so I unhappily declined but hope to see him next time down. How cool is that? Will he dive with me 5 times? Probably not. But the first time sure would be fun for me. Go forth and prosper and I really appreciate knowing I'm not the only one.
Steve

I have a great buddy who has FAR more experience than I have. I have called many dives on him in the past, way before his time was up. We dive regularly (well, not the last two months maybe) and I keep learning through the experiences. I guess sometimes buddies just enjoy each others company, learn from each other and love the caves.

I too had many a buddy that was far more skilled than me in my earlier days. More often than not, I am still lucky enough to get a dive in with one of them. I also try to pay back the favor when I can by taking someone with less experience or doesn't get to frequent cave country very often on dives.

Just like anything else, I think you'll become a better cave diver by cave diving with buddies who are better and more experienced than you. When it comes to learning act like a sponge and absorb as much as you can. :)

I'm very grateful for the people who have been willing to dive with me, who have way more experience than I have (which is almost everybody). I learn a ton from them. They know what kind of diver I am, so there aren't any surprises.

In your situation, if you WANTED to do the dive, I would have gone. Your buddies knew who you were when they invited you, I would think.

If they invite you, they oughta know you might turn it early :) I'm thankfull for those who I've dived with and turned early, or prevented them from a more advanced dive, or whatever.

I try to pay it forward to my buddies who are cavern, intro, or whatever certified. I'll dive 1/6ths in a cavern, better than not being wet.

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

If they invite you, they oughta know you might turn it early :) I'm thankfull for those who I've dived with and turned early, or prevented them from a more advanced dive, or whatever.

I try to pay it forward to my buddies who are cavern, intro, or whatever certified. I'll dive 1/6ths in a cavern, better than not being wet.

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Exactly! Thanks, Mat, for putting it perfectly.

Skip, C&J know you and your diving style/abilities. Trust them to be sincere in the invitation, then trust yourself to turn the dive when you should.

Shirley

I remember a story I read about Exley, He and a buddy were doing a multiple stage dive penetration into a long system. He and his buddy would breathe a stage and then drop it. Later on a dive to pick up the stages, another diver accompanied Sheck and they were going to use the stages on the way back out as a part of their gas....Sheck picked up his and the new diver picked up his buddies. As they started picking up stages his buddy noticed way less gas then what should have been there and ended up with not enough gas for the exit (I may have the details wrong but the gist is correct, those in the know can provide the exact details). The point is the other diver dove beyond his limits to keep up with Sheck...an error. I hate being in those situations so like you skip I would have declined to do the dive. I actually have said no to many dives for just that reason. Bill

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Originally Posted by wingman

I remember a story I read about Exley, He and a buddy were doing a multiple stage dive penetration into a long system. He and his buddy would breathe a stage and then drop it. Later on a dive to pick up the stages, another diver accompanied Sheck and they were going to use the stages on the way back out as a part of their gas....Sheck picked up his and the new diver picked up his buddies. As they started picking up stages his buddy noticed way less gas then what should have been there and ended up with not enough gas for the exit (I may have the details wrong but the gist is correct, those in the know can provide the exact details). The point is the other diver dove beyond his limits to keep up with Sheck...an error. I hate being in those situations so like you skip I would have declined to do the dive. I actually have said no to many dives for just that reason. Bill

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That is pretty accurate.

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Originally Posted by fno

I too had many a buddy that was far more skilled than me in my earlier days. More often than not, I am still lucky enough to get a dive in with one of them. I also try to pay back the favor when I can by taking someone with less experience or doesn't get to frequent cave country very often on dives.

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Right on! I too have a big debt from the superior divers who took me along when I was the inexperienced one. Occasionally I still get to experience that. And as often as possible I pay it back by taking the newer ones with me.

*What the newer divers don't know is that these dives are also very rewarding for me! I get to relax and dive well within my comfort range while also staying sharp by getting practice in the basics and trying to perform up to the standards of "role model".

WJH

Some dives should be called in the parking lot. You made the right decision.

Plan a few dives that you are comfortable with and invite those guys or others to join you. That way you are comfortable with the dive plan and don't have the performance anxiety.

Personally, I would have gone as surface support/support diver. I'm sure you could have done something for them, ran the primary and handled reels, dropped O2 bottles and such. They know the score, and if they're anything like the rest of the cave diving community they'll be happy to help another person within the community. Having a mentor or two is IMO the best training aid in the world.

Any chance I get to dive I'm going. Especially when the other diver has superior skills, that's how you get better! Due to my occupation I get very little notice when I have time to head south to dive. Many times I just head down alone and use AL til someone else comes along. I've had good buddies, great buddies and buddies I bring AL with me anyway. Diving with different people has been a pleasure for me, no matter their skill level.

Personally, I understand your reasons for not wanting to go on the dive. Feeling inferior would certainly make me anxious. That said, I'm definitely jonesing to be asked along on some of those more challenging dives. I'd jump at an opportunity like that because I want to gain a reputation for being a good diver, and for being a trustworthy buddy to take along on a challenging dive, or a dive to a "rarer" cave, one without easy access. I would be very humble though beforehand to avoid having my head handed to me on a platter, by silting out a section after boasting about my "perfect trim," for example.

So do I understand your concerns? yes, but I would approach those concerns differently, and talk over some of those thoughts with my buddy. But unless I had some reason to call a dive, I'd definitely take someone up on an offer like that!

Someone didn't eat their wheaties. :rollguy

I have to call BS on pretty much all of that. If you don't want to go that's cool, but I know for a fact you're more than capable. And I'm pretty sure your sac is way better than my gas sucking excuse for a breathing rate.

I'd much rather see you get in the water and turn the dive when you're ready than not go at all. You've been in the water a lot more than me in the past six months too.

But now that you're going back with J tomorrow to survey you'll get to see that new 1600' of line we laid today. :yawinkle:

Happiness is a big empty reel, or 3.

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Originally Posted by flyguy199

Just like anything else, I think you'll become a better cave diver by cave diving with buddies who are better and more experienced than you. When it comes to learning act like a sponge and absorb as much as you can. :)

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That makes two of us my friend. I am fortunate enough to dive with buddies whom have been cave diving as long as I have been alive and I am a better diver because of them.

As a new Intro diver I understand the OP's sentiments. Like others, I have been very lucky to have experienced divers willing to dive with me at my level. I have learned so much from diving with them. SuprBugman is one of those divers who made MANY cavern dives with me...when he could have done a full cave dive with somone else.

I'd appreciate the offer. BUT we'd have to survey on the way in - not cut into our reserves by surveying on the way out. I'm not doing "new" and downstream anything on 1/3rds either.

After explaining my modifications, if they were still interested, I'd go.

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Originally Posted by Webmaster

Someone didn't eat their wheaties. :rollguy

I have to call BS on pretty much all of that. If you don't want to go that's cool, but I know for a fact you're more than capable. And I'm pretty sure your sac is way better than my gas sucking excuse for a breathing rate.

I'd much rather see you get in the water and turn the dive when you're ready than not go at all. You've been in the water a lot more than me in the past six months too.

But now that you're going back with J tomorrow to survey you'll get to see that new 1600' of line we laid today. :yawinkle:

Happiness is a big empty reel, or 3.

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Oops, bad guess. It looks like it was M&J, not C&J :-D

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Originally Posted by jcr

Some dives should be called in the parking lot. You made the right decision.

Plan a few dives that you are comfortable with and invite those guys or others to join you. That way you are comfortable with the dive plan and don't have the performance anxiety.

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Great Answer!

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Originally Posted by skip

I'm sitting here on the computer while a couple of buddies are diving. I was invited along, but declined. I gave a lame excuse and now admit that they intimidate me. They are way better than me in every way, trim, equipment config, gas consumption, ability, skill, etc. The plan was to push a virgin system downstream and lay as much knotted line as possible, then survey on the way out. I know I'd be at thirds way early compared to them and would most likely silt out various area's on the way in (small silty passage - I've been in there to the current EOL), and basically be a third wheel at best and an annoyance at worst. They are very nice and would never say that about me or anyone.

So what would you do? And more generally what, if any, is the cave diver etiquette in this situation.

I guess I could go and be shore support, but that's like watching people eat thanksgiving dinner while staring in the window drooling.

-skip

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Know your limits. Train your weaknesses and dive your to comfort level.

Good Luck

You should only dive with your best friends!

http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/diver.jpg

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Originally Posted by wingman

I remember a story I read about Exley, He and a buddy were doing a multiple stage dive penetration into a long system. He and his buddy would breathe a stage and then drop it. Later on a dive to pick up the stages, another diver accompanied Sheck and they were going to use the stages on the way back out as a part of their gas....Sheck picked up his and the new diver picked up his buddies. As they started picking up stages his buddy noticed way less gas then what should have been there and ended up with not enough gas for the exit (I may have the details wrong but the gist is correct, those in the know can provide the exact details). The point is the other diver dove beyond his limits to keep up with Sheck...an error. I hate being in those situations so like you skip I would have declined to do the dive. I actually have said no to many dives for just that reason. Bill

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Probably off topic, but wouldn't it have been a good idea to check the stage pressures and regulators on the way IN to the cave ?

Forrest is right, M&J. And Skip, I don't know how you felt like we weren't going to read this when I finally got home, but of course, if we didn't want you to come along, we wouldn't have asked. That dive was the perfect opportunity to lay line close to the entrance of the system (590' close) and would have been in the perfect range for you to have the opportunity to see some virgin cave and practice laying line. Sure, we might not have been able to lay quite as much, (though in retrospect, I doubt that as well.) but that is alright, it would still have been a good dive.
None the less- you got to see most of it surveying today, thanks again for the help pulling tape, and perhaps on Sunday, you can swim out and see the rest- before we dump another 1000 feet on the end. Ha!

And Aainsley- the plan was never to dive to thirds and then survey back, but thanks for making the assumption that we are idiots! We try our best.

Of course I knew you guys would read this, but decided that it was probably something worth posting anyway. I suspect there's quite a few of us in the same boat and it's a good thing to discuss it openly.

And now, thanks to Marbry, I bought a box of wheaties and a quart of milk! And thanks to the posts of yesterday and last night, I jumped at the chance to do the dive today (although I was still a bit hesitant). In the end it worked out great for me! You two laid a bunch of line in virgin cave and I got to go see it the next day. This smile won't be gone for a good long while.

-skip

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Originally Posted by rchrds

And Aainsley- the plan was never to dive to thirds and then survey back, but thanks for making the assumption that we are idiots! We try our best.

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I made the statement about dive to thirds and survey on the way back in the first post and in a siphon too! It's not really a siphon due to the lack of flow, or darn near, and I've never done a survey so just made up the survey on the way out part....not sure where that came from. You see, I am intimidated by people who know way more than me and in an effort to not look the fool, become one anyway! Ah well. But I must say that was one long swim, my legs are still jello.

-skip

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Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

If they invite you, they oughta know you might turn it early :) I'm thankfull for those who I've dived with and turned early, or prevented them from a more advanced dive, or whatever.

I try to pay it forward to my buddies who are cavern, intro, or whatever certified. I'll dive 1/6ths in a cavern, better than not being wet.

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One of these day Mat, I'm going to take you up on that offer. Lol

Ken

I used to bow out of dives for much the same reason. Since then I've gone ahead and done some dives with those with a lot more experience and better gas consumption rates than me and I've never felt like I was slowing anyone down. I have entertained the thought of pushing myself more than I should, but common sense always kicks in and I don't push it. The more dives I do like this the less I consider pushing my limits too much. One thing that has come out of this is I've learned a lot by doing these dives, things I couldn't have learned if I had sat home.

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Originally Posted by BobK

Probably off topic, but wouldn't it have been a good idea to check the stage pressures and regulators on the way IN to the cave ?

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In this case, that would have been hard to do. These were "used' stage bottles, that the "cleanup" team were bringing out. They made the assumption that there would be some gas left in them, and added that to their gas plan. 20/20 hindsight says that was not a very good plan.

" I'm sitting here on the computer while a couple of buddies are diving. I was invited along, but declined. I gave a lame excuse and now admit that they intimidate me." {SkiP}

Skip.............>never....get down on yourself for such a decision as this. You made the correct choice for yourself, no matter what. I've been in similar situations with more experienced dive buddys and if they are not of the mind set to put the weakest diver in front or between them, then you shouldn't be diving with them in the first place. You are way more mature & a much better buddy then the others will ever be. I would be proud to be a buddy of yours anytime & anyplace. But you better let me lead, cause it will take me some time to catch up to you-! :yawinkle:
Good choice-! Safe diving buddy

Jack E.

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Originally Posted by JE

I would be proud to be a buddy of yours anytime & anyplace.

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Yeah, you keep telling me that, too, but it's been over four years since our dive at Peacock. If not Thanksgiving weekend, let's plan on the week between Christmas and New Year's! Plan to be at the Social, too!

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11120

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Originally Posted by rchrds

And Aainsley- the plan was never to dive to thirds and then survey back, but thanks for making the assumption that we are idiots! We try our best.

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Oh come on! It was simply a comment on the stated facts. I had no idea who he was talking about. You're being a little sensitive there, buddy!

From the sounds of it you guys run a tight ship. And I'm deeply envious of your virgin cave :)

Just be ye all warned: Don't go trusting Marbry and Jason around yer virgins...they be PLUNDERERS of the first magnitude! :smt081

:reelleft ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------:reelright

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Yeah, you keep telling me that, too, but it's been over four years since our dive at Peacock. If not Thanksgiving weekend, let's plan on the week between Christmas and New Year's! Plan to be at the Social, too!

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11120

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I deserve that Russell. I was considering this winters season anyhow. I've been trying to develop a credit history & save up enough $$ to get back into diving. My tanks all need to be ck'd & re-cert'd. My lite needs to be up-graded & my Dry suit needs customizing. I've a bitter taste in my mouth after two near misses with a mutual friend of ours & that kind of turned me off on cave diving. All things considered...> Thanksgiving is on my list at Cathy's. Of course, you of all friends will be first to dive with. I miss all of you guys, it's just the way things have worked out down here is all. I've your phone #, so I'll call you soon ok !
Warmly,

Jack E.

If I didn't want you, I wouldn't invite you. I enjoy diving with new divers and have had lots of fun diving with intro divers. If also had a lot of fun doing surface support. I've also called dives 10 minutes into a multi-stage scooter dive because "something didn't feel right" and my buddy and I still managed to have a good time that day.

Send me an email. I'll come up and dive with you. I'm a little rusty and could use some skills practice.

Bill Bowden

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Originally Posted by BillBowden

If I didn't want you, I wouldn't invite you. I enjoy diving with new divers and have had lots of fun diving with intro divers. If also had a lot of fun doing surface support. I've also called dives 10 minutes into a multi-stage scooter dive because "something didn't feel right" and my buddy and I still managed to have a good time that day.

Send me an email. I'll come up and dive with you. I'm a little rusty and could use some skills practice.

Bill Bowden

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Worry not about Bill being rusty but more about the cat hair.....

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Just be ye all warned: Don't go trusting Marbry and Jason around yer virgins...they be PLUNDERERS of the first magnitude! :smt081

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You best add Chrissy to that short list too....the mere mention of a possible virgin in their presence and the next thing you know she's deflowered, surveyed and mapped, and up on a slide at the next TAG!

-skip

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Originally Posted by Meister481

Having a mentor or two is IMO the best training aid in the world.

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This is very true. Mentors make the next level of divers better.