NSS-CDS emergency directions sign

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08-13-2009 09:49 AM
caverkevin

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NSS-CDS emergency directions sign

Was asked by the CDS safety officer to install a new sign out at Cow Springs. Yesterday the sign was mounted to a pole and buried in the ground out at Cow. It is next to the big tree in the middle of the parking area and facing the trail.

My understanding a member suggested the idea of placing signs at the dive sites with the directions to the site. So in a emergency it would be easy for someone calling 911 to describe the location to the operator. That way response will not be slowed down by confusion.

I'd like to say thanks to the BOD, safety committee and the member with the idea.

Cheers!!

Kevin
08-13-2009 09:56 AM
LiteHedded

that's a neat idea
08-13-2009 10:18 AM
contender

Great Idea, spelling of coordinates needs to be fixed. It is not Co-ordinates.
08-13-2009 10:27 AM
Sludge

Quote:

Originally Posted by contender

spelling of coordinates needs to be fixed.

Among other things. The whole text should have been proofread. Heck, I'd have done it for nothing.
08-13-2009 10:27 AM
icestac

Awesome job guys!

Quote:

Originally Posted by contender

spelling of coordinates needs to be fixed. It is not Co-ordinates.

It could be if they are equal parters ordinating...
08-13-2009 10:28 AM
icestac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

Among other things. The whole text should have been proofread. Heck, I'd have done it for nothing.

The new logo is cool too... the bolt looks 3D :)
08-13-2009 10:33 AM
traveler

Kevin, thanks for working on this. Good job...

- Todd
08-13-2009 10:42 AM
MORGAN

Excellent idea - Many times in my paramedic career I had to deal with vague and inaccurate directions. Not fun, either for the responders or the people waiting for them.

Mike
08-13-2009 12:08 PM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverkevin

I'd like to say thanks to the BOD, safety committee and the member with the idea.

The "member" you spoke of has chimed in, but since he didn't take credit, I will leave at just thanking him :-)
08-13-2009 12:28 PM
cavediver27

That is a great idea. Well done!

A big "Thanks" to all involved.
08-13-2009 12:33 PM
Tegg

Good to see something like this be implemented.
08-13-2009 12:34 PM
Sludge

Kevin, don't take my smart-aleck remarks the wrong way. I think the sign is a great idea and I appreciate the work of all that were involved.
08-13-2009 01:05 PM
caverkevin

Because of you I'm never helping with anything, ever again! Not!! I was thinking about mentioning the sign is 3/32th" off center of the pole. I am waiting for someone to go back with a level and tell me the pole is 1/128th of a bubble off plumb. :D

Being critical can helps. I posted this on TDS. Someone commented about having the factional miles with either a zero or in tenths. As the little tiny point might get overlooked in the heat of the moment. Might say eight and three miles instead of "point eight" or "three tenths".

I also wondered about the Lat/Lon notation. My understanding that is standard naval notation, but I wounder what Suwannee county 911 and EMS use. Between my iPhone and Google maps I use degree, decimal degree more than degree, minute, seconds.

Slüdge, sling away. When time comes to put the sign in at Alachua/Mill Creek, you can carry the two five gallon buckets of water up from the spring :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

Kevin, don't take my smart-aleck remarks the wrong way. I think the sign is a great idea and I appreciate the work of all that were involved.
08-13-2009 01:33 PM
dogwatch

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverkevin

Slüdge, sling away. When time comes to put the sign in at Alachua/Mill Creek, you can carry the two five gallon buckets of water up from the spring :D

For Alachua, wouldn't you just say "Behind Sonny's BBQ" or have things changed?
08-13-2009 01:39 PM
Sludge

No, it's "behind Sonny's disgusting meat that's said to resemble barbecue, although I can't see how people can be that wrong..."
08-13-2009 01:40 PM
caverkevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogwatch

For Alachua, wouldn't you just say "Behind Sonny's BBQ" or have things changed?

You could. When they show up on the other side of the hole, away from the stairs. You'll be yelling directions to drive around to the gate with the stairs. Might be better to describe where to turn off, over the ditch, in the first place.
08-13-2009 01:48 PM
dogwatch

sorry - should have added a smiley face - i appreciate the effort

- and they didn't have stairs the last time i was there

i'll be quiet now :)
08-13-2009 03:34 PM
Oister

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

Kevin, don't take my smart-aleck remarks the wrong way. I think the sign is a great idea and I appreciate the work of all that were involved.

You have trouble with that alot. :?

Nice job on the sign. Glad to se my money spent well.
08-13-2009 03:49 PM
fixxervi6

I like it but...

How about a sign on conservation?
08-13-2009 04:58 PM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tegg

Good to see something like this be implemented.

Joe, get me the directions and GPS for School Sink, and we will get a sign for it as well.
08-13-2009 05:48 PM
Line Squirrel

Excellent idea!!
08-13-2009 06:04 PM
amphipod06

Thank you Kevin!!

Dive safe,

Celia
08-13-2009 07:17 PM
CaveBuddy95

It is a nice sign.
It probably cost the board some $$ as well!

But is it an area with cavern diving or is just cave?

:-)
08-13-2009 07:44 PM
Sludge

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95

But is it an area with cavern diving or is just cave?

Upstream is advanced cave, but downstream is just about the prettiest cavern around.

(Despite the name, Cow Spring isn't a spring; it's an inline sink.)
08-13-2009 08:38 PM
CaveBuddy95

Hi Sludge
thanks for explanation.
I asked because usually, if its cave, its more a recovery than an ambulance that is needed. But if there is cavern, then maybe there is some hope! Hope is always good!

Cheers

:-)
08-13-2009 09:41 PM
Rubis

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaveBuddy95

Hi Sludge
thanks for explanation.
I asked because usually, if its cave, its more a recovery than an ambulance that is needed. But if there is cavern, then maybe there is some hope! Hope is always good!

Cheers

:-)

People get bent cave diving too ...
08-14-2009 05:54 AM
Jim Wyatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubis

People get bent cave diving too ...

And they fall down too. Any number of emergencies could happen.

Kevin: Maybe you should go out to Cow and remove the sign & issue an apology for putting it up.

Make sure to leave the hole for those so inclined to argue with.
08-14-2009 06:56 AM
caverkevin

You know me, I would just destroy it or blow it up. Right after I did that I would hurt myself and not know what to tell the 911 operator.

What is the point of these discussion threads if not to chime in and say something stupid?

Also for the next signs. We are going to hold a contest. Applicants please submit copy of directions and signage content to me for Alachua/Mill Creek, Cathedral and School Sink. The winner will have there copy put on the sign and a public flogging on the Internet. :D

Cheers!!!

Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

And they fall down too. Any number of emergencies could happen.

Kevin: Maybe you should go out to Cow and remove the sign & issue an apology for putting it up.

Make sure to leave the hole for those so inclined to argue with.
08-14-2009 07:23 AM
DA Aquamaster

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverkevin

Being critical can helps. I posted this on TDS. Someone commented about having the factional miles with either a zero or in tenths. As the little tiny point might get overlooked in the heat of the moment. Might say eight and three miles instead of "point eight" or "three tenths".

I also wondered about the Lat/Lon notation. My understanding that is standard naval notation, but I wounder what Suwannee county 911 and EMS use. Between my iPhone and Google maps I use degree, decimal degree more than degree, minute, seconds.

I had the same thought regarding the Latitude/Longitude notation. I, perhaps incorrectly, assumed that someone had checked with the county and confirmed that is the format emergency response units in the area used.

If not, someone should do that, and if the current format is incorrect it should be corrected.

There are basically three formats:
Lat/Lon
N30-6 51.6 X W083-6 52.6

Decimal Degrees
N30.1143 x W83.1146

and

GPS coordinates:
N30 6.86 X W83 6.8766

Decimal degrees is the easiest to read over a phone or radio as there is just one decimal point in each number and if the listener misses it, it is easy to properly place if they have even a remote idea where the sender is. In that regard it is not much more complex or difficult to trasmit than grid coordinates.

However, in looking at it again, calling the Lat/Lon coordinates on the sign "GPS coordinates" is technically an error and could cause some confusion even if the correct format is used.
08-14-2009 07:31 AM
Kelly Jessop

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverkevin

.

What is the point of these discussion threads if not to chime in and say something stupid?

Chardonney,Merlot,Cabernet, Zinfadel :-)
08-14-2009 07:37 AM
DA Aquamaster

I decided to be the "someone" and call Suwanee county to get their opinon on the issue. I had to speak to 4 people to get to the right person, but he stated their preference was for coordinates in decimal degrees, for the reason specifed in my previous post - they are easier to correctly interpret over a phone or radio. And they really appreciated us taking the time to ask them for their preference.

My suggestion for future signage, at least in Suwanee county, would be to stay with a decimal degree format (DD.DDDD). And it would be a good idea to check with emergency personnel in other counties to ensure we get there preferred format as well, although I suspect they will have a similar preference for the decimal degree format due to its easier readability.

Whether or not the current sign at Cow should be revised is another issue.

As an NSS/CDS member, I'd be happy to proof read and/or critique any future signs, or converting Lat/Lon coordinates into DD format. I'll also be back in N FL the last week of September if anyone needs help placing signs.

As an aside: the post on the deco stop is now gone - possibly pulled by the "over moderators" there.
08-14-2009 08:02 AM
caverkevin

What post is gone, I did not see anything missing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

As an aside: the post on the deco stop is now gone - possibly pulled by the "over moderators" there.

Thanks for calling. I am planning on calling all the local dispatches and asking that question before the next signs. Also I not sure how the 911 with cell phones works here in Florida. In Michigan mobile calls to 911 were routed to the Michigan State Police. They had to hand it off to a local county dispatch. If that is the case, the number for the local dispatch might be good too. As well as the emergency line for DAN.

Looks like I am spearheading this now. Any suggestions, feel free to send them. I am serious about the little contest and public flogging ;)

Cheers!!

Kevin
08-14-2009 08:24 AM
BabyDuck

i'll just go ahead and sign up for the flogging, if that's ok...

thanks for putting it up, kevin! it's very appreciated. i'll have a warmer fuzzier feeling next time i fall down there. (it's happened twice.)

thanks for calling, larry. you rock.
08-14-2009 08:30 AM
DA Aquamaster

My motives are entirely selfish - given that my dive buddy keeps falling at Cow. The dive ain't done until Marci is out of the sink. :D

Kevin - good point on the 911 cell system and the possible variations for how calls are dispatched. Having the local dispatch number could speed response time.
08-14-2009 08:33 AM
JerseyJersey

First of all....Thank you everyone involved for doing this. It is not something I would have ever thought of until it was too late.

This past winter I stopped on the NY Thruway to assist as I saw a car flip over the median in front of me. Not a clue where I was except on the thruway, 911 dispatchers honed in on my cellphone and I was asked to leave my phone on and remain while state troopers and ambulances came to me.

No idea how it worked or if all states use the same protocol but I was told any information at all you can give them helps..... mile markers, land marks, etc.

I am definately new to every site in FLA when there. These signs in any form are a home run. Good job
08-14-2009 08:35 AM
MORGAN

Good Directions

I realize that being anal obsessive-compulsive detail oriented control freak cave divers, we can't resist an opportunity to point out how something could be improved. (As a critical care nurse as well as a cave diver, I'm sure I'm worse than most!)

But I'd like to acknowledge what a great idea this was and express my gratitude to the people who took this project on.

The directions I got when I was a paramedic were often more like:

Urban: "756 58th Street, Apartment 13, on the 4th floor. About halfway down the 700 block on 58th, across from the Salvation Army office."

Except that all of the street signs in the area have been stolen, all of the streetlights have been broken or shot out, none of the buildings have numbers, and the Salvation Army office is now a porno shop. The front door to what seems like it could be the right building has a sheet of plywood screwed over it, and the only way into the building is a door off the alley that leads into the basement. There are only three floors, and none of the apartment doors have numbers.

Rural: "The old Evans place, about three miles out Miller Road off Route 113, past where the sawmill used to be. You know where the big yellow barn used to be that burned down a few years ago? It's about a mile before that.

The Evans' haven't lived there since 1963, what the locals call Miller Road is called Lewis Road on the E911 maps, there's no sign of anything that looks like what used to be a sawmill or a burned-down barn, none of the web of dirt roads have signs, there's no reliable way to tell the town roads from the logging roads, and you've driven 7 miles up what you thought was the right road without seeing a house. You finally meet a pickup truck that's zooming toward you flashing its headlights, and its very anxious and half-drunk driver leads you down a cowpath past the cellar hole that used to be "the old Evans place" and up through the woods to a trailer where there are no lights on.

Compared to this, the lovely new sign at Cow is a model of clarity. Thanks to Kevin and everyone else!

Mike
08-14-2009 09:06 AM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by MORGAN

....The directions I got when I was a paramedic were often more like:...

Lafayette county Florda has set a good example of how to do a rural 911 system. They have re-numbered all the roads, and put signs on any that had none. They also put numbered posts at every residence, and even vacant lots. I have even seen this done in rural Arkansas :-)

It would really help at places like Cow, and Cathedral.
08-14-2009 09:35 AM
Arctic Mike

Thanks for the idea and the execution! Great job!:clapper
08-14-2009 11:48 AM
matt_w

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

Among other things. The whole text should have been proofread. Heck, I'd have done it for nothing.

Great idea.

It could be cleaned up some (Like most of my posts on the Internet), but it will still be valuable if it is needed. (Unlike most of my posts on the Internet).

Matt
08-14-2009 06:43 PM
MORGAN

Quote:

Originally Posted by FW

They also put numbered posts at every residence, and even vacant lots. I have even seen this done in rural Arkansas :-)

They have numbers there?

Wait, I'm from rural Vermont - Appalachia North, the poverty pocket of northern New England. Never mind.

Mike
08-14-2009 07:18 PM
Cindy

Nice sign! I like to see people trying to help other divers. Maybe fax a map to the County EMS as well.
Just don't get bent on the weekend or you will have to go to Tally. Cindy :)
08-14-2009 07:30 PM
caverkevin

Right now I am working on getting 911 address for all the CDS land. Neither the Alachua or Suwannee emergency management folks were in the office today. Monday I'll be making phone calls and pressing this. Hopefully we'll be able to have a address sign by the street on the properties.

Did talk with a Alachua deputy today while having lunch at Zaxby's. While the some deputies have personal GPS's, they don't dispatch by GPS. One of the Suwannee county dispatchers sounded clueless when I asked about GPS. They pretty much said GPS numbers are only used for landing helicopters. So I'd like to see a street address for each of the caves.

Monday the fun really begins. I'd also like to say thank for all the comments, even the sarcastic ones, as they are helping to make this project better for the whole community.

Cheers!!

Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy

Nice sign! I like to see people trying to help other divers. Maybe fax a map to the County EMS as well.
Just don't get bent on the weekend or you will have to go to Tally. Cindy :)
08-14-2009 07:54 PM
Kelly Jessop

Great job Kevin
08-14-2009 08:40 PM
caverkevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Great job Kevin

Busch, Bud Select, Miller, Ice House... :D
08-14-2009 08:53 PM
SuPrBuGmAn

Thanks Kevin, its appreciated
08-14-2009 10:32 PM
TONY CHANEY

Lead, follow or get the ..ll out of the way. Everybody has a better idea after the game but thanks Kevin for taking the lead.
08-15-2009 12:02 AM
JMB2262

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverkevin

Busch, Bud Select, Miller, Ice House... :D

Deal! As a first responder in my day life and a cave diver who only gets out there once a year to dive, I think this is a fantastic idea. Is a case good enough for the one at Cow?

Matt
08-15-2009 06:37 AM
icestac

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverkevin

Busch, Bud Select, Miller, Ice House... :D

I think you need to post the address to send them too ;)
08-17-2009 12:54 PM
caverkevin

Just wanted to give a quick update. The surveyor for Pasco Co. was really cool. The tentative street address is 7330 Stevens Dr. Just need to send him a check tomorrow for $11 to finalize the paperwork. The Suwannee Co guy will be driving by Cow and Cathedral to look at the locations for street address. Hope to hear back on that soon. The lady in Alachua city was like no way, no how is that going to happen. Asked really nicely, she agreed to ask the Alachua Co guy that would assign the address. We'll see what happens. Back up plan is just to say it is across the street from 15850 NW US HWY 441, which is the little used car dealership.

Talked with a Pasco Co dispatcher about the GPS. The second generation cell phones that give a GPS location. It is displayed at the dispatch in degree, decimal degree. So School Sink would be something like +28.36843, -82.6945 That might be worth while for diving other systems. That DD.DD is the form that is used at dispatch.

Cheers!!

Kevin
08-17-2009 12:56 PM
caverkevin

The beer thing just me poking fun at Kelly. All that fine, high dollar wine ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Chardonney,Merlot,Cabernet, Zinfadel :-)
08-17-2009 01:07 PM
sskasser

:supz::smt041:smt038:dancingbear:clapper

Quote:

Originally Posted by caverkevin

Just wanted to give a quick update. The surveyor for Pasco Co. was really cool. The tentative street address is 7330 Stevens Dr. Just need to send him a check tomorrow for $11 to finalize the paperwork. The Suwannee Co guy will be driving by Cow and Cathedral to look at the locations for street address. Hope to hear back on that soon. The lady in Alachua city was like no way, no how is that going to happen. Asked really nicely, she agreed to ask the Alachua Co guy that would assign the address. We'll see what happens. Back up plan is just to say it is across the street from 15850 NW US HWY 441, which is the little used car dealership.

Talked with a Pasco Co dispatcher about the GPS. The second generation cell phones that give a GPS location. It is displayed at the dispatch in degree, decimal degree. So School Sink would be something like +28.36843, -82.6945 That might be worth while for diving other systems. That DD.DD is the form that is used at dispatch.

Cheers!!

Kevin
08-17-2009 06:48 PM
BabyDuck

you rock, kevin. you just do.
08-17-2009 07:44 PM
Sludge

Quote:

Originally Posted by sskasser

:supz::smt041:smt038:dancingbear:clapper

Hey, Shirley, you left out one:

:ele
08-17-2009 07:52 PM
caverkevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

Hey, Shirley, you left out one:

:ele

You might want to hold back....... You are getting all the proof reading work :D

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