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Stumbled on this website while looking for a cheaper place to camp around Ginnie.The website lists a few springs that on their property, and includes photos of each. I'm assuming that they don't allow diving there since I've never heard anyone talk about them. My question is, does anyone know if there is going cave in any of these? Has anyone been granted access in the past to check them out?
Here's the website:
http://www.bluespringspark.com/escapes.htm
They don't allow diving, but I believe there is cave there. I seem to remember running across a video of someone doing a snorkel traverse from one vent to the other while cruising online one day.
Poe's got cave too, but they don't allow diving either.
There's not much cave there from what I've heard. Wes Skiles was allowed to take a look and said it pinched down to no mount very quickly. One of the owners son's who I went to school with told me this at least....Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantey
I've also heard that if you try to use the navigable waterway act to dive it from a canoe, you'll still get trouble from law enforcement. Not sure you'd get convicted by any means, but you might not want to deal with the legal BS of proving yourself right.
My boss has done a dive or two at Poe and has some "interesting" stories about it...... :)
Safe diving,
Rich
Really? Cheryl's dived at Poe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
:clapperQuote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantey
The management does not allow cave diving. I dove Blue with Wes; there is very little cave in it. The spring has two vents that both go into a single fair sized room and drops into some very, very tight cave. It might go back 100 ft or so. The others are small vents that I haven't had a chance to check out. The runs are small and difficult to get into because the management does not remove fallen trees.
Jerry
Interesting. If the country and state conclude that the spring run is public (as it should), it sounds like cave diving access from the river would be legal. They could (and most likely would) still not allow it from their land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serota
Hmm... Now if they could only talk to Wakulla county... :smt102Quote:
Originally Posted by Serota
Good One :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Jean
Good one Russell! Man. that reminded me of all the grief I got when Cheryl sink was in the process of being opened for diving..... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Safe diving,
Rich
http://highspringsherald.com/article...ews/news05.txtQuote:
Originally Posted by Serota
There is the follow up article. Basically it is state land and access to the actual spring is open to whom ever comes by water.
Miranda
Not to open a can of worms, but how does this decision affect cave diving at Troy Spring? :smt102
It seems to me that it would apply to Troy and any other property that can be reached exclusively by water. The article also indicates the same rules apply to private property, but the execution could be trickier (convincing the guy with the shotgun).
Last time I was at Troy (been a while, half a year or more), there was a set of large black floating square things attached to each other and the shore by ropes, which would effectively prevent entrance by a boat. Why are they allowed to do that?
Troy will always have a special place in my heart, it was my first wreck dive!
Why not anchor and swim under said plastic floaty thingies? :) Its not THAT far... Its not like you're going to be haulin a metric buttload of gear into that little cave?
I LOL'd, but hey, its not often you can pair a spring dive and a wreck in one!Quote:
Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior
I can handle hauling gear up the run--except half the time I'm out there, it's not deep enough to really swim, and it's a slippery walk, but this quote from the first article piqued my interest when Troy was mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by original article
Well...Troy Spring is a state park. The waters in question are waters of the state. Therefore the state can manage and deny entry or limit certain rights as they see fit.
The right to access springs and other areas isn't about navigable water in FL. Its because most submerged land is sovereign (owned by the state) and not owned by individuals living nearby.
Miranda
The only map of Troy I have ever seen shows only about 200 ft of passage, and "looking in" from outside (while holding on for dear life) it does not look all that promising.
I am not sure it would be worth the swim up the run, unless of course you just wanted to say you had dived it. Lets not even talk about the battles you would face if you got caught.
That's the whole point of this hijack - there should be no "caught" in the equation. If the State Park system wants to prevent you from diving the cave from park property, that's their right, but the legal ruling concerning Poe states that if you don't touch land, you're not their concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavediver256
That's not really how it works. The ruling at Poe doesn't apply to Troy as Troy is state managed. Poe isn't a state park the state hasn't put any rules into place and private entities aren't allowed to either. Troy both from the land and from the water is managed by the state as part of a state park. Their rules stand regardless of which way you enter as it is state owned land managed by the state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
The state could make Poe a state park and stop any cave diving but they would have to follow the process for such things including management plans and public input.
The right the public has to access water in FL isn't because its navigable. It's because it's owned by, held in trust for, and managed for the good of all Floridians. As the managing entity the Department of Environmental Protection (who runs state parks) can place restrictions and requirements which have to be followed regardless of how you get to the site.
Miranda
Interesting concept. I wonder why the water at Troy Spring isn't owned by, held in trust for, and managed for the good of all Floridians.Quote:
Originally Posted by cinder4320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
It is...and they've determined that limits on cave diving here are for this "good". Don't necessarily agree but its the same concept with anything that is limited on state or federal property.
Miranda
So what about the people who erect spillways out of loose rock and then claim it's not navigable? It seems to me that they are disrupting the flow of the spring as well as illegally limiting access.
I've never specifically heard of such a thing but it would be a violation and could be reported to the entities (DEP) in the newspaper articles who were discussing the various other individuals who try to claim sovereign land as their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Powell
Miranda
Can anyone explain how the ruling pertains to the submerged lands and the spring run to the Santa Fe from Hornsby spring, and whether the private land owner Camp Kulaqua can prohibit access to the spring from folks in canoes.
Dive Safe
Mark
Based on my understanding of the previous discussion, it would seem that if the spring can be reached without stepping on the shore, that they can't legally prohibit access by water.
Cinder4320 - do you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EEL
Thanks. One example would be Perry Spring.Quote:
Originally Posted by cinder4320
The state of FL owns <most> of the water/submerged lands which lie below the mean high water line. Normally that translates to being reached without going on shoreline but it isn't the fact that the water is navigable it is the fact that it is state owned that allows the access. Very similar but if its navigable and not state owned access doesn't apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serota
That's why they checked the title of the land around Poe Springs before agreeing that public had access. They don't look at the navigation issue but of course you can't trespass.
For a specific location, you would need to have the entity mentioned in the article (DEP, specific contact is given) check the title of the submerged lands. Some areas are not state owned.
Miranda
Cinder 4320,
I was asking specifically about Hornsby spring in Alachua County. As I understand it the access "canal" was dug through the Santa Fe flood plain to the swallet where the flow used to go back underground, but now some continues overland in the canal to the river. The rest of the run from the swallet up to the spring is natural. I was wondering if the creation of the waterway in the river floodplain gave them the right to control access. Do you have a contact person at the DEP State Lands Office that can get an answer for whether this spring run is or is not state owned land.
Thanks for all your previous posts they have been very informative.
Mark