I stumbled across this on YouTube...

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Originally Posted by mdax

That's very cool the judge understood what was happening in that situation. I wouldn't bet my future on such a wise, informed judge being given a future case. Kidnapping or assault can really mess up life, over some douche? no way.

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Assault generally requires recklessness or intent to injure in addition to physical contact and/or an actual injury.

Kidnapping requires an abduction in addition to intent to commit certain additional acts (human shield, terror, ransom, hostage, rape, etc.) The only way I could see a kidnapping charge in this circumstance would be if the diver being removed was a government agent on official business.

I agree that it's generally best to keep your hands to yourself, but with intent or recklessness being an element in these crimes, conviction seems doubtful. Hell, even harassment requires intent to harass annoy or alarm.

Imagine how I'd feel if one of those rabidly anti-cave-diving types (those killer caves!) were to station themselves at the entrance and pull me out to "save me." They'd be doing what they believed to be right to save me from dying in the cave. Their belief, no matter how based in statistics and no matter how well intentioned, doesn't trump my ability as an adult to do what I want.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Imagine how I'd feel if one of those rabidly anti-cave-diving types (those killer caves!) were to station themselves at the entrance and pull me out to "save me." They'd be doing what they believed to be right to save me from dying in the cave. Their belief, no matter how based in statistics and no matter how well intentioned, doesn't trump my ability as an adult to do what I want.

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Your right Shirley,but lets be selfish about it. Let's say this is Shirley Blue Springs your absolute favorite cave dive. You see that person enter,ignoring the advice of the people around,they go in,get lost,and Shirley Blue Springs has claimed a victim. This person has exercised their right as an adult to do what they want,but the wife of the Darwinian award winner decides to sue the owner. This owner doesn't want the liability of cave diving at Shirley Blue Springs stops all cave diving at this site,leaving you never to see your favorite site again. This wasn't a cave diving accident,it was more of a mental defect,but we suffer the consequences,and another site is closed. I am not suggesting going in and pulling this person out by their fins,although if you do,please post the Youtube video,but something needs to be done if we want to protect our sport.If we aren't proactive in protecting the sites to the best of our ability,even perhaps sitting outside the site and reporting a case of trespassing to the police who you've called,then we can't be upset when we've lost a site.

Kelly,
I'm good with reporting trespassing and other broken laws, and have done so. And I do often discuss the consequences with those I see diving (or preparing to dive) unsafely (A few even went on to take the needed classes). I also want us to look at this from many angles before acting in a way that could negatively affect us all.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Kelly,
I'm good with reporting trespassing and other broken laws, and have done so. And I do often discuss the consequences with those I see diving (or preparing to dive) unsafely (A few even went on to take the needed classes). I also want us to look at this from many angles before acting in a way that could negatively affect us all.

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Along those lines...

There are people diving caves with no training, sometimes they have been for a long time. After 15 or 20 years of surviving do they get grandfathered in? If Abe Davis were alive today would we make him take a class?

I know FL has a liability exemption for recreational use of private lands. I'd like to see it publicized more, certainly in train wrecks like that one over on SB. :)

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Originally Posted by rjack

Along those lines...

certainly in train wrecks like that one over on SB. :)

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Correction,,,,,,, That is way beyond the "Train Wreck" level !!!!!!

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originally posted by speleodiver
The goal would be to educate the non cave divers of the hazards. Hats off to JamesK. He may have saved a life or two and just won't ever get confirmation of it. Good job James and thanks for taking the time to meet with them!!!

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I just now saw this. Thank you. I just hope they stick to taking the time out to meet me. They are out of town skiing at the moment. I hope to meet them when they get back.

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Originally Posted by sskasser

Kelly,
I'm good with reporting trespassing and other broken laws, and have done so. And I do often discuss the consequences with those I see diving (or preparing to dive) unsafely (A few even went on to take the needed classes). I also want us to look at this from many angles before acting in a way that could negatively affect us all.

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I agree,and don't have any doubt that you would do everything in your power to try and do something. My comments are general in nature too,because sometimes cave divers that see someone breaking the rules act like like seeing an accident,"I don't want to get involved,somebody else will come along". Nobody likes being the cave police,but sometimes it takes that to protect what we have worked so hard to earn. I got to Cow once and there were some OW divers who diving the downstream cave. I told them they need to leave because they weren't trained for this type of diving,and this was trespassing. This resulted in me being called every permutation of 4 letter words you can imagine,and without getting upset I got out my phone and said I will call the Suwannee County sheriff's dept and let them resolve this. Their tempo of leaving the place picked up rather quickly. Did I save a life,no because I can't fix stupid,but did I protect a site that couldn't handle litigation from members of the Darwin club. Cave divers shouldn't be afraid to do what they can to protect what they have earned,even at the cost of being labeled an a**hole.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

I got out my phone and said I will call the Suwannee County sheriff's dept and let them resolve this.

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Kelly, can you please elaborate on this? Is this because they didn't sign in with Cathy? Or because they're breaking the established rules? What constitutes trespassing?

Just trying to understand if this also applies to things like ginnie springs when divers sign waivers and then break the rules. Or peacock. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Red Hat Jef

Kelly, can you please elaborate on this? Is this because they didn't sign in with Cathy? Or because they're breaking the established rules? What constitutes trespassing?

Just trying to understand if this also applies to things like ginnie springs when divers sign waivers and then break the rules. Or peacock. Etc.

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my guess would be because it is private property with an established set of guidelines for access.