Diver education safety organization

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02-11-2014 04:18 PM
Walter Pickel

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnAd

the American system for maintaining quality instruction in its schools, with all its close checks and expensive processes, still leaves us with poor instructors.

Think the unions have anything to do with protecting crap teachers?
02-11-2014 04:20 PM
Walter Pickel

Quote:

Originally Posted by speleodiver

Remember we live in the day and age of school shootings.

Remember, schools are GUN FREE ZONES (read no one can defend themselves -- target rich environment)
02-11-2014 04:23 PM
Walter Pickel

Regarding my previous two posts (that have NOTHING to do with the OPs content/question), neither example is worthy of being in this conversation. IMO, the posters cherry-picked an issue and hoped readers would fall for it. Apples and oranges...
02-11-2014 06:49 PM
phillip1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tegg

Shouldn't we work to have the existing organizations make this a priority rather then trying to create a new ad-hoc organization?

Yes it would be great but unfortunately the current agencies really do not care and take zero meaningful action against they're instructors when major safety violations are reported.
I mean major major safety violations happen on a daily basis in Mexico and The DR, all agencies know exactly who is doing this and it gets reported all the time with zero action whatsoever.

I think this is a good idea and maybe even a public "instructor shaming" site that would post all details of safety violations, date it was reported etc.. would be great and in the end might be the only way to bring this to light make it a very very open and promote it and make it full public knowledge as to what cave diving agency's instructors and instructor trainers are taking OW divers way past the cavern zone, every single day.
Make it public knowledge that the problem is NOT a father and son on they're own time who decide to get killed but rather full cave instructors who take unsuspecting OW divers on full cave dives with them even knowing it.
I think that if the general public caught wind of this on a regular basis then maybe the agencies would uphold safety standards and strip offending "guides" of all certifications, which by the way would be immediately on the shaming site too so the public could know who is no longer certified etc..
02-12-2014 05:57 AM
Superlyte27

Quote:

Originally Posted by star1107

I love the mentoring idea. As a newly certified cavern diver, if some kind of program or how to go about getting in contact with a mentor was offered during instruction I would have def been interested. We want to be better divers, have gone through training but have no easy way of reaching out to get help with skills. Skills that can't be refined in a day or two of training. Practicing doesn't do me any good if I'm practicing wrong. There is most def a feeling of exclusion towards those of us that are new. And I want to be a cave diver. I must be crazy :-D

Call me. We'll go cavern diving whenever I'm free.
Peter 407-304-9288
02-12-2014 06:13 AM
JohnAd

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillip1

I think this is a good idea and maybe even a public "instructor shaming" site that would post all details of safety violations, date it was reported etc.. would be great and in the end might be the only way to bring this to light make it a very very open and promote it and make it full public knowledge as to what cave diving agency's instructors and instructor trainers are taking OW divers way past the cavern zone, every single day.

We just had a public shaming thread on this forum a couple of weeks ago. It led to a threat of a lawsuit, which is why I believe I can no longer find that thread anywhere.

ScubaBoard had a public shaming a couple of years ago. The resulting lawsuit cost them many thousands of dollars in legal fees before it was settled. They managed to settle without giving in to the main objective of the lawsuit--identifing the real identities of 100 participants in that thread so that they all could be sued as well.
02-12-2014 06:18 AM
Superlyte27

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerich

Asking the agencies to approve of this will not work, frankly it undermines their ability to present their programs as worthy. However having a voluntary association that instructors can apply to be peer reviewed and part of is another thing altogether.

I have noticed that LOTS like to talk about having higher standards but at the end of the day they don't really mean it. Frankly lots of students pick instructors they know will pass them, and after the class their easy instructor is morphed to the most and bestest instructor ever, and the instructor laps it up. Some instructors are very aware that not passing people and being their buddy would be bad for business, so that is what they do.

This is exactly the reason why I'll never be an instructor who instructs for the need of a paycheck. It's no secret that my class is very difficult. It's no secret that I fail people regularly. (call it what you want, but if you didn't get a card at the end of 3,5,7 days, whatever, you failed. Yes you can continue to learn and maybe one day earn the card) I have had students come to me and when they found out that I would be demanding of their skill and mindset they went to a different shop. I have had people upset with me because when they tried to sign up for an Intro to Cave class and produced a Cavern Card from a few PADI instructors I told them that most likely they'd need to re-take Cavern Class. And it's okay. I teach because I love the sport. I teach because someone 20 years ago taught me, even thought I couldn't afford it and certainly didn't deserve it. Today, I am repaying that debt because I want to be like my mentors. I don't teach because I need the money. I don't teach for notoriety or ego. Frankly, how many in this thread would recognize me if they saw me walking on the sidewalk?

I have a filing cabinet full of cave students at various levels. At any time, any one of you are welcome to pick from the cabinet any of those students and call them up and evaluate their skill in the water, and their mentality towards cave diving. I am completely confident in each and every one of them. If I can't have that confidence in you selecting one at random and running them through the ropes, there's no chance in hell they'll get a card. I will NEVER have someone see one of my students in a cave and be scratching their head saying, "HOLY SHIIT, who was that assshat's instructor?" I will NEVER be embarrassed to have my name on a student's card. They either possess the proper skill for that card, or they don't have the card. Period.

I hope that my mentality towards this sport and towards teaching this sport never changes. If it does, please call me out of on it.
02-12-2014 08:44 AM
Sludge

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnAd

It led to a threat of a lawsuit, which is why I believe I can no longer find that thread anywhere.

We simply closed it (it seemed to have run its course); we didn't remove it. It is currently the 34th thread on the Main Forum list.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...Nest-to-Repeat
02-12-2014 01:23 PM
speleodiver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slüdge

We simply closed it (it seemed to have run its course); we didn't remove it. It is currently the 34th thread on the Main Forum list.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...Nest-to-Repeat

Seriously? A lawsuit for someone calling him out for breaking rules at a state park. I'm almost incline to accept the invitation. I'd love a piece of that in discovery and deposition. Especially when certain agencies were invited to attend or be privy to the information. Not real sure he thought out that threat. If he thinks CDF is bad court cases have a way of making everything public. No mods and no restrictions. I can't say for sure but breaking rules tends to lead to trespassing which leads to a criminal activity committed with a 10 year old in tow. Then CPS, SO and several other agencies would step in. Just how much is a lawsuit worth to you? Anyone care to answer that one?
02-12-2014 07:33 PM
Tegg

Quote:

Originally Posted by speleodiver

Seriously? A lawsuit for someone calling him out for breaking rules at a state park. I'm almost incline to accept the invitation. I'd love a piece of that in discovery and deposition. Especially when certain agencies were invited to attend or be privy to the information. Not real sure he thought out that threat. If he thinks CDF is bad court cases have a way of making everything public. No mods and no restrictions. I can't say for sure but breaking rules tends to lead to trespassing which leads to a criminal activity committed with a 10 year old in tow. Then CPS, SO and several other agencies would step in. Just how much is a lawsuit worth to you? Anyone care to answer that one?

Agreed. It would not go well for him at all... it would be unwise for him to start the process.

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