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People have heard me say "Just because I have a few more C-cards than you doesn't make me a better person." An "Inclusive" non arrogant attitude and a little mentoring will go a long way in most cases. The "catch me doing something wrong" attitude is not helpful. I'm guessing everybody here started as openwater divers and somebody helped bring us along.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyf
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK
this is exactly what Cavern Class is.
standard OW gear
if they have a snorkel it goes back in the car.
only additional gear is a line cutting device (most have a knife), a safety reel/spool (I carry 1 safety and 3 jump spools, so loan one for a dive) and two lights (I carry a primary, secondary and two backups, have about 6 spares in the car, another loaner)
I'm not saying take them on a guided dive to the Hinkle, but giving them a positive encounter with cave divers will be more likely to get them on the right path then telling them NO, Don't or your not allowed to be here.
+1 Positive encounters seem to have a lot better effect than negative ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyf
Are you an saying it is ok for an instructor, or are you you saying it's ok for any full cave (or I guess even intro cave) diver, to take OW divers into a cave as long as they've got the right equipment? I'm really not sure how to read that?Quote:
Originally Posted by billyf
This has been going on for a long time in MX (guided cavern tours). Despite much criticism on this board and others that the practice is dubious. However despite one or two fatalities (recent) they actually have a pretty decent safety record considering the quality of the OW divers they are taking on the tours.Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2dive
To be a cavern guide in MX you need to be full cave and be an instructor, just an OW instructor though, not a cave/cavern instructor.
Taking a curious OW diver on a cavern tour, doing a proper job laying the line to the cave sign, being in good trim with the right equipment etc. could be the stimulus for them actually pursuing proper training etc.
Its also a pretty big time investment (and some risk) on the part of the "guide" and there's a chance nothing positive will come of it.
you should stay within the standards of the minimum level of certification of the lowest certified diver.
point them to an overhead / open water site - Blue Grotto, Devils Den, Ginnie's Ballroom
if they're are at a site like P1 talk them into going to OG, then dive with them, show them your skills, tell them stories what it has taken for you to develop them.
talk about your training goals and how you plan to achieve them.
show them dangers like not having a line to the surface can result in death.
an improper fin kick can blow out the viz
you don't have to be in the cave to show them things like this.
a 10 to 20 min talk about the proper gear and the base rules with a 20 min dive concluding with pointing them to a Cave shop or instructor.
no death that day is a positive, at least I consider it one.
you may never know but that hour you lost showing some OW tard about safe cave diving that you saved a life or two!
Great answer Billy!Quote:
Originally Posted by billyf
Many of them know not to ask .The really determined ones see us and know where to go ...sometimes following our lines or lights.
Places like Orange Grove and Manatee it's especially easy to be followed because there is OW diving in a spring where caves are easily found. Recently I observed a team of two obvious OW divers doing the traverse from Catfish to Main Spring. A question I always have is whether to make a point of it to park personnel. I have in the past and it was just shrugged off.
While I have not yet attempted any cave training (Nov 17th we will) I can still vote on this poll. I would just say no and if they do not like it well so be it.
What they do after is up to them as was stated before "can't fix stupid". My wife and I were in NC last year wreck diving, we were still very new to diving had taken AOW and a basic wreck course, but I still knew we had lots to learn. On our second dive, one of the other couples said to us (after talking about the wreck and how it had some nice swim threw's) you do not need to have any certification to do the swim through's, you can still see daylight and its wide open. When we got to that part of the wreck many people were going in, I looked at my wife and waved her off and she agreed. We are both very adventuous, but we can see just through common sense and looking at the wreck that even a "sanitized" wreck could be deadly with out proper training. And this attitude will carry on when we start in the caves. So if anyone see's us about to do anything even resembling a bone head manuver, or can point out something for improvement I hope you will and not even think worry if I or my wife will take it the wrong way. At least you know you did your part, and we take constructive critisim well (most of the time :) )
Oh, and in highschool I saw those movies like red asphalt and they did not make much of an impression then, but I know while do my homework and gettting ready for cavern and intro I have watched many videos like the one on the NSS=CDS site (Lamar Hires I believe)and the last dive of Artie Shaw and it has definitly made an impact on how I approach situations even if I am trainined, not that I fear them but to make smart choices and have respect for the enviroment and how easily it can kick my butt.
Billy,
I like your attitude and approach. We as the cave divers are the ones who lead the interest in caves in the first place. I find it counter productive to tell an O/W no but then slide off in the water and swim into the cave you don't want them to know about. Sure you can hide out in the shadows and wait until you feel the coast is clear but how about the o/w's hiding out in the shadow you don't see. I became an O/W instructor after I was full cave and have since moved on to cave and mixed gas instructor. I engaged a rather heated conversation the day I came back from my IE with the course director who taught my IDC. He was VERY against even mentioning cave and tech diving in an open water class. After several years and having never taught for him, he has finally swayed to my way of thinking when he learned how effective my ramblings about cave and tech in the O/W classes really can be. After over 300 OW students, I do not teach much open water anymore, but I can assure you it is important to inform the student diver about all aspects of diving. This includes cave and mixed gas. Honestly, as an instructor would you teach a class and never mention currents or thermal protection if the student stated they would never dive in currents or in water below 85 degrees? Bottom line is we all need to take some time to educate. I hear do not tell them as they will die and we will be locked out of the site. Nobody wants to be the police but I can assure you if your child was playing in the street and a stranger happened along and told them the hazards of being in the street and they cried to you about the lecture the bad man gave them, you would have a sense of gratitude deep inside for the life of your child someone saved. If not you may want to seriously rethink your entire life. Or maybe you don’t have children. I have always taken the time to speak to anyone who approaches but I will from now on put aside my own desire to dive so I can possibly save the life of a follower diver. I do not have any possessions or time that can possibly be worth the life of another human being. (even the stupid ones that will eventually kill themselves). At least I will continue on my path knowing I did everything I could. If I get sued then so be it. Like I said I have no possessions or time worth a life anyway. It almost makes me feel like some people place their own material worth over life itself. If a dive site was shut down over someone dying because you did nothing, what is lost to you? The dive site or just some poor stupid soul who should have known better in the first place? Did you always know the caves could kill you? Educate, Educate, Educate this is what will open and keep open dive sites we all enjoy.