What is the point of charging divers additional fees at Florida State Parks?

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Originally Posted by Lanes

Apparently you people are content to accept the scraps of remaining "freedom" that the government will allow you to buy. It is sickening to hear you talk favorably about public parks being run like a business. It reeks of communism. Fees will be increased shortly. Listen to yourselves when you say "at least they let us dive!" That sounds pathetic. What happened to this country? We use to be free.

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Yes we used to be free to kill the family who lived upstream from us because papa done dammed up the creek for his corn crop and dried up our water supply. Now thanks to government regulations and the permitting process there is oversight to prevent our society from turning into the tribal regions of Waziristan. Society has rules and we are all the better for it.
Listen, I'm as libertarian as just about anyone and I resent government interference in my life but by the same token you have to have a certain amount of policing and rules. Little River is a good example of true freedom at work. Drugs, drunkeness, fights, booming stereos, thievery, vandalism, and all around boorish and obnoxious behavoir. And not a Sheriff's deputy in sight.
Here's the deal, If I'm not "free" to take a baseball bat to someones obnoxcious brain pan, or drop a hand grenade through their window to show them what a real boom sounds like they shouldn't be free to raise hell, throw trash around and all around make public nuisances of themselves while I'm trying to have a peaceful day at the park. Total freedom = anarchy and I for one am willing to "fund" a little law and order and a little peace and quiet. I'm looking forward to visiting Little River State Park with my dirt cheap park pass. In spite of it's imperfections the current system is still better than most of the alternatives.
By the way, have you ever noticed that the same people who refer to themselves as "Anarchist" are the same people who would end up at the bottom of the food chain should they ever get their wish?
Well that's my rant for the weekend. I gotta get up early to try and catch a "slot sized" Redfish. Damn those F.F.W.C.C. spoil sports. :roll:

Little river's "culture" amazes me every time. I wish there was a way to stop that group of the population from breeding. The no alcohol law is a running joke at that place, even 16 year olds feel free to get hammered by splitting a 24 back of natty ice in front of everyone. Makes me wonder a) where are the parents? (I'm guessing drunk as well), and b) Where are the cops? (I've yet to figure this out).

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Originally Posted by Lanes

I have read Karl Marx's Communist manifesto. You should read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal." Obviously you don't understand capitalism if you are promoting government ownership of property. The United States has already adopted half of Marx's tennets of communism. Your two main choices for president in the coming election will be Warmonger McCain or a SOCIALIST democrat. Freedom for an individual can only exist under capitalism. What we have in this country is not capitalism. The government has intervened in every aspect of the market. This government intervention causes problems that are blamed on capitalism and they use it as an excuse to expand the government with more intervention which only compounds the problems. When did the government gain the power to tell you whether or not you can dive? Its total BS, and I thought you would understand but I guess its true what they say that ignorance is bliss.

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I was not promoting anything, merely pointing out that your claim to communism was not entirely in line with the ideals of its foremost fathers. But now that we are on the point of ignorance is bliss, yes it is. And blissful are the ignorant. Blissful in their own thoughts, world and ideas thereof.

PS Isn't the second amendment in place to ensure that the standing militia can overthrow the government when it becomes too overbearing? I guess we will see you on the barricades soon? Or do you only bark?

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Originally Posted by Lanes

Apparently you people are content to accept the scraps of remaining "freedom" that the government will allow you to buy. It is sickening to hear you talk favorably about public parks being run like a business. It reeks of communism. Fees will be increased shortly. Listen to yourselves when you say "at least they let us dive!" That sounds pathetic. What happened to this country? We use to be free.

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And things are going to change?!?!? I don't agree with everything you posted, but I also don't think the government does everything right. In fact, I have a problem with a lot of the things they do. However, I haven't found a country that's any better. If you know of one let me know. As long as there are caves there, I may move...

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Originally Posted by MengTze

PS Isn't the second amendment in place to ensure that the standing militia can overthrow the government when it becomes too overbearing?

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It wasn't put there so I can go duck hunting. :wink:

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Originally Posted by mmcauliffe

It wasn't put there so I can go duck hunting. :wink:

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I thought it was put there to create debate!

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Originally Posted by Lanes

I have read Karl Marx's Communist manifesto. You should read "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal." Obviously you don't understand capitalism if you are promoting government ownership of property.

When did the government gain the power to tell you whether or not you can dive? Its total BS, and I thought you would understand but I guess its true what they say that ignorance is bliss.

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My goodness...a much better comparison would be Das Kapital with Smith’s Nature and Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations. He, Smith that is, certainly spent a lot ink developing the role for government in the light of what are called market failures. The pertinant one here is the case of a public good/common property resource. Ayn Rand is also better understood in Atlas Shrugged where she lays out her philosophy. Who is John Gault? Bill

You know the great thing about America, no one is forcing you to pay the park fees. I for one think the $42 annual state park pass is a bargain. If they doubled it, I would gladly pay it. Simply put, if you don't like the price, don't pay it, go somewhere else and dive.

Democratic governments tend to be over responsive to worried parents.
If open water diving weren't regulated by dive shops and charter operators, the fatality rate would probably be so high that state legislatures or Congress would ban it.
Buford Sink and Eagle's Nest are regulated by difficult access.
The road and picnic tables make Peacock and Madison Blue very easy to access. Without rangers, they would attract open water divers who would kill themselves. (I once watched the guard at Ginnie try to explain why a hookah pump is not a snorkel to a pair of swimmers who failed 9th grade general science.) The result would be a total ban on cave diving. Swimmers would still sneak in and kill themselves, but real cave divers would be conspicuous enough to be stopped.

WoooHoo! Marx, Engels, Ginnie Springs and Florida State Parks--All in one thread! But seriously folks, we enjoy access to public lands here in Florida that most other parts of the country would envy. Not just dive sites, but bike trails, birding paths, campgrounds, and so on. And yes, most of us who live here would like to see the "disneyficaton" of our springs halted. It is a fine line we walk--improvements provide disabled access to these springs, and yes, a more developed infrastructue. But the good outweighs the bad in many respects. More people swimming in, picnicking at and enjoying our natural beauty may lead a new generation of state park patrons to appreciate and protect our precious water resources here in North Florida.
Also, a great many of the staff at the smaller sites are volunteers. Retirees mostly. Our continued access to these wonderful cave diving sites may just depend on our attitudes, behaviors, and our diplomacy when interacting with law enforcement (River Cops!), rangers and volunteers. Remember each one of us represents the entire community of cave divers. We have worked very hard to have positive relationships with the state, water management districts, and private property owners to gain and maintain the access we enjoy.
Until that giant sink opens up between our house and Wes's (please, please) the state park sites are the best bargain we have. With respect--Robert