Negativity in Cave Diving Politics

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Originally Posted by floridabob

Hate to be the ass (no, I dont) but: probably should go away with your 10+ dives post certification/training. I'm not saying you have no say, but "there are some people I wont dive with" cant fly here. It would be similar to me telling people how to use Facebook. Stupid.

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I did not say "cave dive with" there are people I just plain won't get in the water with.....maybe only 10 dives in caves, but several thousand in open water. There are nurses I won't let near me with a needle and hair stylist that are not coming near me with a pair of scissors, so I think that statement will fly here.
No ocean diving with that Florida Bob guy either....he is salty enough. Besides he knows I am just trying to catch up with his post count :)

"there", not "their"

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I won't sugar coat it, GI3 wasn't anything like what you'd expect a GUE instructor to look like. If you look at DIRI-III and

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see :blackbar....

Edit: Also I think this sport is currently lacking a top predator, like GI3. From what im told, GI3 made it so the practice of inverting doubles, slob knobs and stuffing the long hose had basically disappeared from cave diving, which I can't argue is a bad thing. On any given weekend you can go out to Ginnie and see some horrible configured sidemount divers, maybe what we need is a sidemount GI3, perhaps BobI3(not flroidabob)

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Originally Posted by jj1987

nakatomi, I'm guessing you're looking for someone who's been diving with GI3 to say he wasn't a great diver. I won't sugar coat it, GI3 wasn't anything like what you'd expect a GUE instructor to look like. If you look at DIRI-III and then look at the newer GUE videos, you'll notice an enormous skills difference.

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I was just curious to see his in water skills. I've seen JJ in the water on several occasions but never George, he was just way before my time.
Since you mentioned it, I was told that he was never an instructor for GUE.
As to the Gopros, I believe seeing other people's skills (and ones own skills in comparison of course) live on video is what helps create awareness for what is considered a good or bad skill set.



Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by cmint

Just so you guys know, when you are rude to other divers you are taking tourist dollars away from the area, and probably money out of your own pockets.

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If dumb people listened they would not be dumb to begin with.
So as good as your point is, it will be ignored by those who need to hear it.

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Originally Posted by derek

From what im told, GI3 made it so the practice of inverting doubles, slob knobs and stuffing the long hose had basically disappeared from cave diving, which I can't argue is a bad thing.

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The transition away from butt mounting light and stuffing the long hose was going away before George. One of the conflicts I brought up was the Hogarthian vs personal preference conflict that existed, and people were starting to use the Hogarthian more. People changed to Hogarthian for the perceived benefits or peer pressure, GI3 acted as a catalyst for the peer pressure group, because you'd be made fun of if you butt mounted/stuffed long hose. People were using butt mount lights and stuffing the long hose for ages before and conducting safe caves without problems, and disadvantages were embellished into a death wish on the old Tech-list during one of the rants. The irony is with sidemounting stuffing a hose and butt mounting a light is back, and as was commonly said on Tech-list- no body bags are needed.

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people were legitimately dying from deep air and poor training often, and cave access was being lost too. Agencies were still allowing deep air classes, CCR was relatively new.

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James, deep air was still present,and I am not a proponent of deep air, in reality people weren't dropping like flies as was lead to believe. I think we have some revisionist history occurring. I know you mention poor training, but with a common theme on the forums right now about poor training, I would say that era generated some good training. As far as access being lost, what sites? If you mean the Leon sinks area, do you homework.

It is interesting how this type of topic always brings up GI3 & a lot of people want to credit him for making positive change. There was already a lot of change & learning happening that had nothing to do with him. I have zero respect for anyone that does not defend or even acknowledge their own words. GI3 talked tough and said a lot of really nasty things, especially about the dead who could not defend themselves, then would deny his own words. When face to face with people sure he was nice because he is spineless and yes I have and will say that to his face.

I do my best to not say anything about someone I don't like. With him there is no forgiving or respect.

Is there a anyone who is passionate about training standards today?

Is the overall quality of cave divers BETTER today or worse (compared with 10 years ago)?

Is instruction quality better or worse than 10 years ago?

There is always going to be "negativity" in any politics involving the personality types who cave dive, dry cave, or do any other "extreme sport". The real meat of this conversation is about the quality of diver and instruction that is getting C-cards today.

Are changes needed? Are students today getting the same quality training from all the instructors? Are the quality of diver taking cave training the same or worse?

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Is there a anyone who is passionate about training standards today?

Is the overall quality of cave divers BETTER today or worse (compared with 10 years ago)?

Is instruction quality better or worse than 10 years ago?

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Overall quality of divers and instruction is much worse. Yes, many are passionate but are fighting an uphill battle especially when cave instructors can be made by one IT over a couple of long weekends and a fat check.

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Are changes needed? Are students today getting the same quality training from all the instructors? Are the quality of diver taking cave training the same or worse?

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Changes are needed ... the entry level divers are not as skilled and well trained as 10 years ago. The entry level cave instructors are not as skilled and well trained as 10 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Tegg

Is the overall quality of cave divers BETTER today or worse (compared with 10 years ago)?

Is instruction quality better or worse than 10 years ago?

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Joe you are comparing apples and oranges. Think what has changed so much to change training and effect quality of divers over the last 10 years