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Sure, the cave diving community analyzes, but 90% of the time we have to do so with very little to no information since none of the agencies seem to think that accident analysis is for anyone but the police.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Alot of people complain that accident analysis on the internet only results in baseless speculation. Thats absolutely true, because the cave diving community is denied the facts to make proper accident analysis possible. How friggin sideways is that?
I'd be very surprised if this wasn't exactly what is happening. My husband is an OW instructor, and I can tell you that even there, every single thing that doesn't go smoothly and that even might have presented a risk to a student's wellbeing is exhaustively reviewed and ruminated over. It is one of the fundamental concepts of scuba instruction to retain CONTROL of the students . . . if this instructor lost that, I'll BET he's asking himself if he wants to continue to teach.Quote:
If an instructor lost his students in jb in a silt out then not only should students be warned away but the instructor also needs to take a GOOD hard look at their motivations and abilities while taking a long break from teaching cave diving
I have enormous respect for the people who take on the responsibility of teaching cave and technical diving. Even more than OW diving, they put themselves in positions where both their students and the instructor can be at significant risk. I'm amazed anyone is willing to do it. Having been the student who put a class (through accident) in a situation where the instructor later confessed to a friend that he was asking himself if he even wanted to teach any more, I actually empathize with this guy.
of course he/she can't control everything. Oh jax, it may be because you don't have cave training. As a cave diver i expect the following from my partner/instructor or anyone i would go into the cave with. It's called a "lost buddy procedure" in cave diving. Every agency teaches a variant of it.
This procedure is a key part of cave dive training.
1. puts an arrow on the line
2. visually search for buddy
3. recalculates gas to know how long they have to search
4. attaches spool to arrow and searches until they are complete with #2. THEN leaves a flashlight on the line indicating they have left the cave.
While it worked out wonderfully that Edd was able to save the others, and believe me Edd is the MAN, there is no future in this paradigm(fleeing for help)...you MUST help yourself and your buddy when in the cave. Looks like the instructor panicked and bailed....That's a no go.
Jax: I think about these "what if" scenarios on nearly every dive. What if this diver suddenly loses it. What if they have a bladder rupture and land in the mud zero'ing vis. What if it's too tight for their comfort and they freak out. If this diver has a burst disk go RIGHT NOW, will he/she panick, or will he/she have the composure to pull it together and survive. If my answers to these questions are that the diver would freak, then I've done a poor job, they have advanced farther than they should have in the curriculum and they are literally in over their head.
So here's what I've figured out so far....
It's my job to know how they are going to respond long before we get into that position. I have 4 classes and many hours with these student with increasing difficulty and challenges. I believe that if I've done my job right there should be little if nothing at all, that they can't overcome without panicking. With all that said, I'm not leaving a student in a cave, unless they are A. Able to outswim me (which is unlikely) or B. Just refuse to follow me and even then, i'm relatively certain i'd drag them out by their hair if need be.
I don't know who the instructor was, and know very few facts of this case, but if the student freaked out and did the complete opposite of what he was told to do, you can't blame the instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
I understand the proper lost buddy drill. In this case, it sounds like a total siltout. the visual stuff and light stuff would be pretty worthless at that moment in time. We do not KNOW that the instructor did not leave a light on the main line.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdax
Maybe, the instructor's eval said - I need help in here NOW, because I am not confident I will find them within my current air capacity. I don't know how total a siltout it might be in JB, especially as people have posted about the low flow.
Again, I ask, what should s/he have done? Assume, massive silt-out, that the instructor tied off a line and did a quick check of the area . . .
+1!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
There are certain factors that an instructor should have control over. Such as allowing his students to go into an area that he's unfamiliar with...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
If this was a factor in this incident, then the instructor should hold atleast some blame.
to be clear, what i expect the instructor/partner/buddy to do is to search for their team members until they reach the pressure calculated in step 3. Based on the little information we have it doesn't seem that step was completed.
However these are just things i hold my buddy accountable for...an instructor should be able to retain control, not panic and manage these situations to an even higher degree. I would expect an instructor to pull off a lost buddy drill with a silting out scared diver every single time....they may not be able to wrestle the diver out, or find them...but i'd expect an instructors lost buddy drill for their students to be damn good, executed without panic. Maybe i'm a minority in this perspective; i just don't think it's unreasonable to expect this of instructors teaching cave diving.
Yes you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
The instructor leaves, panicked, and calls Edd. Edd enters and finds them, and leads them out.
They exit with 1100 psi
So... WHAT THE HELL WAS THE INSTRUCTOR'S TANK PRESSURE???
Remember years ago we had a long thread on what psi one should exit with when losing a buddy. These guys were close to the exit. No instructor worth their salt should have CONSIDERED exiting until their gas hit 1100 or so.
This guy probably EXITED with over 2000.
...####. Now I've started the guessing game! But my first thought when I read this was, why did the first person leave so early?
Not only should he not instruct, he shouldn't even cave dive. Assuming of course that my assumptions are correct.