Accident Analysis

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

Ken Hill and the rest of the IUCRR leadership are intentionally preventing the cave diving community from being able to conduct accident analysis.

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Have you ever talked to Ken? Very approachable person and getting factual information directly from him would help some of the misinformation you have. He is a former US Marshall and cave diver/instructor since the mid-90s. He could give you good context and answer your questions directly.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

We want a rapid report frequently, often to satisfy curiosity ,but does anybody ever go after the report, or do we stand by social media hoping it will appear. If a cave diving accident is treated as a crime scene, then that means it is investigated by law enforcement, and a report is released-which can and will take time. Does anybody ever request the information from the ME or police department conducting the investigation when the report is completed???

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we shouldn't have to, that is a huge part of the justification for the existence of the IUCRR and is all over their website, problem is they aren't doing it. They used to provide useful reports, including Ken starting threads about incidents and followed up with useful reports

Initial thread started by the IUCRR the day following the incident
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ond-the-Hinkel

an actually useful incident report that gives all of the information that we are asking for aside from computer profiles which were admittedly kind of a crap shoot in 2008
http://www.iucrr.org/mar10-2008.php

Compare that to the most recent report from 2015 which is completely useless. What changed in the last 10 years that they are now choosing not to publish useful reports?

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

the endless speculation is because nothing gets released though. when these details DO get released, all that stuff is toned down a lot

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I disagree, mindless speculation happens every time whether or not a detailed report is released. For example in 2011 after we had the co accident in Cozumel we reported a detailed description of the accident only to have 20 pages on why that's couldn't of been what happened. A year later Jim Wyatt gave a full report on a diver dying from breathing O2 at depth again 20 pages about the truth being withheld till the thread got kocked. Sorry but every time someone tries reporting what happens it makes no difference, page after page after page of mindless speculation. A-holes, cave divers with personal agenders and those who can't Handel any truth nevermind the truth flood the internet. So don't complain that no one ever reports when every time someone does report they're made to regret it.

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Originally Posted by tbone1004

we shouldn't have to, that is a huge part of the justification for the existence of the IUCRR and is all over their website, problem is they aren't doing it. They used to provide useful reports, including Ken starting threads about incidents and followed up with useful reports

Initial thread started by the IUCRR the day following the incident
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ond-the-Hinkel

an actually useful incident report that gives all of the information that we are asking for aside from computer profiles which were admittedly kind of a crap shoot in 2008
http://www.iucrr.org/mar10-2008.php

Compare that to the most recent report from 2015 which is completely useless. What changed in the last 10 years that they are now choosing not to publish useful reports?

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The question is has rampant speculation helped? Has complaining about getting an accident report helped? Has complaining about the IUCRR helped? Are we any better off now than we were last year, or year before...? Using the same formula on social media will more likely have the same result,so, why not try something different. All I can say is talk to the people who are responsible for the questions you seek answers to.

Pack it up boys it’s settled. Status quo.

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Originally Posted by PfcAJ

?Lawsuits? ?the data belongs to the police? ?active investigation? ?HIPPA?.

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Well I can assure all potential recovery divers that the HIPAA threat is BS. Recovery divers are not covered entities meaning HIPAA doesn't have any bearing. HIPAA only applies to healthcare and insurance providers.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

... Does anybody ever request the information from the ME or police department conducting the investigation when the report is completed???

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That would entail actual work, not just keystrokes on the Internet. :-)

I was at the midwest workshop a couple of years back where Lamar Hires gave an excellent presentation on IUCRR, its policies and practice. If memory serves correctly, Peter Buzzacott who was also there wrote an article on the subject matter which summarized it well. Personally, I think IUCRR's policy has room to allow for factual data along the lines of what tbone and others have noted to be published without unreasonable exposure to lawsuits. Accident analysis and reports are not unique to cave diving.

I can't speak to the deep state theory, but I would suspect that IUCRR being a volunteer organization has something to do with it. It's one thing to hand over information to law enforcement, quite another to compile information for public release. Someone has to vet the information by talking to all the recovery divers, checking for errors or inconsistencies, etc. If publicly released data is inaccurate, there is certainly risk of litigation with good cause.

So, if say, 5 people with necessary background and competence get together and volunteer their time to perform this task, and propose formally to the IUCRR (or through CDS as an agenda item at a board meeting), I would think that a proposal might be seriously considered. Perhaps even have a chance of being adopted. Instead, if all that's being said is that IUCRR should do this and that, in essence, dictating what others should do with their own time, I am not sure I would consider such exclamations (however well-intentioned) seriously.

I think that many want details to convince themselves it'll never happen to them...find some detail to assure themselves they'd have made it, equipment difference, certification agency...anything.

Alpine and multi pitch rock climbing have more fatalities and somehow those communities aren't demanding details and answers for each death.
It's just part of the deal, same in cave diving, we're just full of type A's who want to convince themselves they can out think or out plan death when she comes for them.

Conversations that are mostly speculation have initiated good discussions.
Folks contributing that they can swim from the henkle on a stage or that EN is fine for cavern.
Heck, these conversations typically net more food for thought than any "report".

I'm happy the IUCRR folks pull bodies, they don't owe writing up crap for us.

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Originally Posted by mdax

I think that many want details to convince themselves it'll never happen to them...find some detail to assure themselves they'd have made it, equipment difference, certification agency...anything.

Alpine and multi pitch rock climbing have more fatalities and somehow those communities aren't demanding details and answers for each death.
It's just part of the deal, same in cave diving, we're just full of type A's who want to convince themselves they can out think or out plan death when she comes for them.

Conversations that are mostly speculation have initiated good discussions.
Folks contributing that they can swim from the henkle on a stage or that EN is fine for cavern.
Heck, these conversations typically net more food for thought than any "report".

I'm happy the IUCRR folks pull bodies, they don't owe writing up crap for us.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by mdax

I think that many want details to convince themselves it'll never happen to them...find some detail to assure themselves they'd have made it, equipment difference, certification agency...anything.

Alpine and multi pitch rock climbing have more fatalities and somehow those communities aren't demanding details and answers for each death.
It's just part of the deal, same in cave diving, we're just full of type A's who want to convince themselves they can out think or out plan death when she comes for them.

Conversations that are mostly speculation have initiated good discussions.
Folks contributing that they can swim from the henkle on a stage or that EN is fine for cavern.
Heck, these conversations typically net more food for thought than any "report".

I'm happy the IUCRR folks pull bodies, they don't owe writing up crap for us.

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Right on.