Experienced Cavers and Tech Divers Who've Died

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Originally Posted by FW

FWIW, the person with the right idea is still alive. Andrew Ainslie said "always have double the gas needed to exit from any point". If you turn at thirds, and don't dally, that fits his concept. It will also work for surveying, if you are real sure you know where you are, and how much gas is needed for exit from there. It is a little hard to calculate, if you are preoccupied doing something else, like surveying.

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Yeah, I never really understood what a big deal Andrew's thing was. Until.... I started working in caves in Cozumel. They're kinda maze-y. I didn't like the way the project had divers go scoop the cave, then "let" the rest of the team survey, but it is what it is. Anyhow, we'd go in and have a certain part of the cave as our objective and you'd keep poking down various tunnels, surveying, until it was time to go. And then it made perfect sense. Have at a very minimum, twice the gas it would take to get out. If it took 400 psi to get to the start of the branching. Then saving 1000 would be a minimum goal. Because the caves were so shallow, you could really rack up some U/W time and get a lot done, and still be plenty safe.

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Originally Posted by FW

It was Sheck Exley that started the idea of surveying on the way out. It came from the "dry" cave practice of surveying as you go, but they don't have to lay line, or worry about saving gas for exit. What else is different about Sheck's method, from what Berman and Simmons did, was Sheck only did the exit survey on line he had just laid. Berman and Simmons were re-surveying previously laid line. Previously laid line should be surveyed on the way IN, not going out. Exley's practice isn't really safe, unless you turn well before thirds.

FWIW, the person with the right idea is still alive. Andrew Ainslie said "always have double the gas needed to exit from any point". If you turn at thirds, and don't dally, that fits his concept. It will also work for surveying, if you are real sure you know where you are, and how much gas is needed for exit from there. It is a little hard to calculate, if you are preoccupied doing something else, like surveying.

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Right. We're also talking about solo guys.
You have to start making compromises when u do these things solo

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

Right. We're also talking about solo guys.
You have to start making compromises when u do these things solo

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Compromises?

Or making plans for eventualities?

Seems like as soon as one compromises safety, it all goes downhill from there. . .

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Originally Posted by Jax

Compromises?

Or making plans for eventualities?

Seems like as soon as one compromises safety, it all goes downhill from there. . .

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For instance if you're laying down line in a buddy team it's quite trivial for number two to collect the survey data on the way in and avoid these sorts of situations. Additional gas complications from surveying out etc.

But if you make the decision to go it alone for whatever reason you're going to have to make a compromise somewhere. Survey on the exit or come back and do an additional dive etc. maybe some of you can lay line and survey at the same time but I know I'd have a hell of a time trying it. Especially anywhere deep.

Not that it applies to Steve and his ginnie map...

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

I'd heard various thoughts on R Palmer...Maybe you know more Duncan.

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Probably no more than has been published on the internet. Much of it speculation and conjecture. I didn't know Rob that well but have spoken to others that did. He was quite the "personality" in everything he did, and I guess that caught up with him.

As far as surveying goes - I have usually surveyed in and frequently carried a cylinder reserved for task which I could breathe to empty with enough gas elsewhere to return safely. More recently I have taken to surveying on closed circuit because of the lessening of time pressure and lack of bubbles to disturb the visibility. Of course, when you are exploring then the desire might be to lay line in and survey out and the thought might be that you used more air to lay line in which if you then turned on thirds would allow extra to survey back. This is a dangerous assumption.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I don't know that a list of trained cave divers or technical divers who died tech/cave diving would really prove anything. It almost seems like a list you'd use to justify NOT getting training.

Wouldn't the size of the cave diving award lists be a better example of why we get training, along side a list of untrained fatalities?

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+1.

A list of long forgotten deaths could be used to justify the elimination of access to various sites.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I don't know that a list of trained cave divers or technical divers who died tech/cave diving would really prove anything. It almost seems like a list you'd use to justify NOT getting training.

Wouldn't the size of the cave diving award lists be a better example of why we get training, along side a list of untrained fatalities?

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I think the two lists together would make a powerful statement, but would be counter-productive in my set of circumstances. I believe pointing out an award system to these folks would further encourage the type I'm talking about to unreasonably push limits. Not only will they be worshiped by their friends for being "cave explorers", they could get an award to show off as well.

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Originally Posted by diveongas

+1.

A list of long forgotten deaths could be used to justify the elimination of access to various sites.

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Because there's not enough recent deaths to close systems?