Poll- Do you agree with the CDS getting out of the C- Card business?

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Originally Posted by Jont

What does that mean and how is it applicable here?

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It simply means that the organization, IMO, needs to setup up the organization to thrive in the long run not just short term projects that will make enough noise to make some members happy today. Long term goals are what are needed.

Those from the NSS that taught me and mentored my in climbing and caving never charged a dime. NCRC only charges for costs. Why is it that the CDS is the only section/grotto that provides a select group or members to profit solely off being a member.

The proposal is, if cave training hadn't been developed, there would be more deaths -- seems pretty benevolent to charge for it then. Some decided that given that, a cottage industry could be born. People die dry caving and climbing as well. No one is trying to eek out a living creating a cottage industry there.

Ask those in the NSS how happy many in the NSS membership is that a small "elite" part of the NSS membership gets to make money off their membership dues while they (non cave divers) donate their skill and knowledge -- theirs isn't good enough to pay for? I am pretty sure a previous CDS Vice Chairman has fielded a few of those conversations at an NSS convention or two.

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Originally Posted by cerich

This type of attitude is everywhere, recently I heard multiple rumors that somebody who REALLY should have known better took a unqualified (not tmix) non full cave diver on a 300 ft deep dive to the nest, they seemed to feel it was ok because it wasn't a formal training or guiding dive, just a fun dive with a friend....another Instructor.

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There was a shop in Tampa that used to do AOW check out dives at the Nest often. A cave diver complained to PADI; PADI didn't care.

There is an OW instructor at the Univ. of Indiana that forces students to dive in overhead environments for their class. Several cave divers complained to PADI; PADI didn't care.

It would be nice if there was a respected organizations that tracked instructors and that organization could rank instructors based of classes, mentoring, post class involvement, etc. Instead of asking people that have fallen into a cult-like love for an instructor "just because", provide something akin to an (God forgive me for using this analogy) AngiesList for instructors.

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Originally Posted by cerich

I don't even know where to start with this...it sound great and would make a difference...but in practice I think not so much.

On Monday Edd and I went for a fun dive in Hole in the Wall, on Tuesday I mentioned this to a open water instructor I know who wants to get into cave diving, his reply was " i really liked it there as well"...well that got my attention, asked some questions and found out he did some trust me dives with a cave diver (not instructor) I also know. Both plead out as dumb asses, i gave my "it seems really easy until it isn't speech" and have determined that I won't be part of the Open Water Instructions ongoing training in any format because he showed a HUGE lack of judgment....by the way I certified him as a instructor and did not see any hint of that type of attitude in his Instructor training, he hid it because he knew we wouldn't approve. just like the ow folks in the boat that came up and asked us if we were going to be diving the cave for long and when we said we wouldn't be in the way said "we'll come back later" and sure enough they were sitting waiting for us to leave when we got out of the water 90 mins later ...and waited another hour for Edd and I to actually drive the boat away before they went diving..obviously to explore the cave and they didn't want to hear Edd and I tell them they were being stupid, they knew and didn't care.

This type of attitude is everywhere, recently I heard multiple rumors that somebody who REALLY should have known better took a unqualified (not tmix) non full cave diver on a 300 ft deep dive to the nest, they seemed to feel it was ok because it wasn't a formal training or guiding dive, just a fun dive with a friend....another Instructor.

The other side of the problem is that there are MANY if not most that in fact DO want a easy course, they don't want to be challenged in any way.

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I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to improving cave training. If people want to cave dive without training or do dives that are beyond their abilities there's nothing we can do about it. Let's focus on the people that want to learn and provide them with quality training and a reasonably safe way to gain experience in the cave environment.

Charlie

Just like you quoted me in your post that I am quoting in reply to yours, It was relevant to the points in the post I quoted.

The bottom line is as a community we need to be prepared to stand behind what we recommend and preach, not just give it lip service.

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Originally Posted by jcr

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to improving cave training. If people want to cave dive without training or do dives that are beyond their abilities there's nothing we can do about it. Let's focus on the people that want to learn and provide them with quality training and a reasonably safe way to gain experience in the cave environment.

Charlie

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I agree as a community we should do what we can to educate on caves. But the very agencies who are not cave agencies are the ones who trained these open water divers and may possibly be the training agency for the cave diver mentioned. They are training but not possibly educating enough these divers on the dangers of exceeding their limits.

I can tell you the cds instructors I used did so and followed up when ever they saw me asking about where i have been and who with and how things were going.

My training recreationally , while they were excellent instructors, mentioned the dangers (not nearly as intensely) and I cant say they followed up. The other agencies need to step up this education also if they are to instruct in it, especially at the recreational level.

I cant say this is a failing of cds instructors, or any particular agency, but a responsibility of the dive community as a whole. Any education of the community we do is worthwhile, absolutely. And should be a part of what our organization does. But it seems our training program already includes a great deal of this and should be commended. As should any agency that does so.

There are instructors, good instructors and great instructors in all the agencies. I guess i have been lucky so far with my choices

Isn't it nice when we all play together in a civil manner? Imagine what we could accomplish if we could continue like this.

Civil? 14.08% of respondents think I should die! LOL :-)

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Originally Posted by cwick

Isn't it nice when we all play together in a civil manner? Imagine what we could accomplish if we could continue like this.

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Well, some of that has nothing to do with this poll.

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Originally Posted by cerich

Civil? 14.08% of respondents think I should die! LOL :-)

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LOL! I thought that was the " I need further info to make an informed decision" box. Damn.

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Originally Posted by cerich

Civil? 14.08% of respondents think I should die! LOL :-)

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Yes but only 14.8% rather than the typical 75%.