Cow Springs Access Restrictions for Conservation, Safety, Accessibility

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01-03-2012 10:58 PM
WEPIV

I don't know how this would work in this case but for a northeast Atlantic wreck dive (on the San Diego with Capt. Klein) he asked me on the phone while initially booking the trip for some references and he actually called at least one of them to check on me.
01-04-2012 12:15 AM
jj1987

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

How about 100 logged hours in a cave, at the appropriate level, since intro, excluding time spend on deco and in certifications. It encourages (or at lease doesn't discourage) taking plenty of time at each level. Also doesn't give extra credit for super short dives. I have dives logged as two where we went down the Olsen line to 6ths, surfaced, talked about it, then did a dive down the Peanut line to 6ths. One of my computers even logged it all as one dive, the other broke it up in to two. Each was about 30 minutes. I have 120ish dives in the cavern or cave (50/50 roughly), and not a single one counts towards my "experience" as far as diving cow is concerned.

FWIW, I think the requirement for cave certs should include a minimum total dive time on the cert dives.

The issue is when (as you admitted to a few weeks back) intro divers stay too long at that level, they begin breaking rules, IE going beyond 1/6ths or making jumps. The most recent Peacock death was an example of an intro diver who had stayed at the level longer than she wanted to stay within the limitations. I'm near positive she had enough hours to get her Abe Davis.

I don't argue that experience between levels is a good thing, but I do think that after about 50 cavern and 50 intro dives it's time to move to the next level, especially when the temptation to break rules is in full effect. This is from my own observation as well as looking back at the decisions I made to break rules and thinking about why I did that.

100 dives has been for several years an easy to measure and verify credential. It's not fool proof, but it's something that guides at Indian, Waynes World, Emerald's review comittee, and various other sites including those where no one is cave trained (Hart Springs) have been able to use. Remember that the NSS-CDS isn't managing the key distribution-- Kathy is, and every minute she or her staff spend checking people in is a minute they can't sell a piece of gear while they're on her pay roll.
01-04-2012 05:52 AM
FW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

How about 100 logged hours in a cave, at the appropriate level, since intro, excluding time spend on deco and in certifications....

The NACD Wakulla Bronze award can be hours, or number of dives.

Any special reason you think it should be "since intro", and not "since full cave"? :roll:
01-04-2012 11:44 AM
Greenwood_60

Quote:

Originally Posted by jj1987

The issue is when (as you admitted to a few weeks back) intro divers stay too long at that level, they begin breaking rules, IE going beyond 1/6ths or making jumps. The most recent Peacock death was an example of an intro diver who had stayed at the level longer than she wanted to stay within the limitations. I'm near positive she had enough hours to get her Abe Davis.

I agree. Is the bigger problem Intro/App divers breaking rules because they stay too long at a level (somehow ignore the ones who are going to do it regardless of how long they stay), or the Full cave divers who rush through Intro/App to start racking up dives post-Full, and get in to Abe Davis systems before they are ready? (not rhetorical)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jj1987

I don't argue that experience between levels is a good thing, but I do think that after about 50 cavern and 50 intro dives it's time to move to the next level, especially when the temptation to break rules is in full effect. This is from my own observation as well as looking back at the decisions I made to break rules and thinking about why I did that.

I agree. Giselle and I have been doing this together, and she doesn't think she is ready. I wanted to take App at the beginning of Fall, she asked me to wait. So I directed my obsession towards converting to SM. She finally agreed to take App separate, so I am scheduled for App the end of this month. She will take it in early June just before her Intro in Doubles expires.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FW

The NACD Wakulla Bronze award can be hours, or number of dives.

...but you can still get away with a bunch of short dives. I could do 6 dives a day on only 2 doubles fills (only getting out of the water to refill tanks) and get that in a few months without much real experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FW

Any special reason you think it should be "since intro", and not "since full cave"? :roll:

To give people like me another good reason follow the rules (I did say "at the appropriate level"), and gain experience, at each level. Dives I have made past 6ths would not count, nor would the dive with the jump. Would the average Full cave diver with 100 hours since Intro be a better diver than the average Full cave diver with 100 Full cave dives? I don't know. The average diver is not the ones ******* up the cave. The worst Full cave divers with 100 hours since Intro would be better divers than the worst Full cave divers with 100 Full cave dives. IMO.
01-04-2012 01:55 PM
SuPrBuGmAn

Here's an idea.

How about you continue to slowly progress through the levels, then take Full Cave, then gain some experience past Full Cave, and once you have your 100, go dive Cow. Like you know you should be doing.

...ya know.... instead of throwing out worst case scenarios, situations that represent the minority, lowering the standards for diving what most consider a pristine cave system, creating an unnecessary incentive to following the rules(?!?), and speeding up your access into Cow.

This isn't about you. Its about Cow.
01-04-2012 02:34 PM
Greenwood_60

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

How about you continue to slowly progress through the levels, then take Full Cave, then gain some experience past Full Cave, and once you have your 100, go dive Cow. Like you know you should be doing.

That is exactly what I am doing... what's your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

...ya know.... instead of throwing out worst case scenarios, situations that represent the minority, lowering the standards for diving what most consider a pristine cave system, creating an unnecessary incentive to following the rules(?!?), and speeding up your access into Cow.

WHAT?!?! Worst case scenarios is what is ******* up Cow. Who gives a **** about the people who don't **** up the cave or kill themselves.

Unnecessary because everyone follows the rules already, right? And because no one rushes through certification just to do the dives they want to do?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

This isn't about you. Its about Cow.

Your right. Like I said, Full Cave and 100 hours past Intro will have less divers ******* up Cow than 100 dives past full. IMO.

If I wanted to speed up diving Cow, copy and paste is very easy. Not like I can't already get the key, or find the bright white entrance to upstream.
01-04-2012 07:19 PM
SuPrBuGmAn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Unnecessary because everyone follows the rules already, right? And because no one rushes through certification just to do the dives they want to do?

The minority rush through certification, the minority choose not to follow the rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Your right. Like I said, Full Cave and 100 hours past Intro will have less divers ******* up Cow than 100 dives past full. IMO.

Most people take their time through the different stages of cave training, therefor, they're going to reach 100 hours after Intro, far sooner than 100 Full Cave dives. Yet, much of those hours will be on relatively simple dives. The experience will not be the same as when they are diving caves with the training and complexity of a full certification. Everything up to that simply falls short.

Is the 100 safe, post Full Cave, measurement perfect? No. Nobody has claimed it so. But its the best measurement we have. Its DEFINATELY better than implementing a new system(which would require either a new award to be presented, or a rewrite of current rules, or alot more effort from the key holders in order to add up bottom times from logbooks(??)), that is equally as weak at best, and far more impracticle as it gives credit to handicapped experience.

As an Intro diver, you're halfway to being a Cave Diver. It should be pretty obvious why the time there shouldn't count towards actual cave diving experience in terms of getting into more advanced or less forgiving divesites.
01-04-2012 09:00 PM
DA Aquamaster

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesK

I don't keep a log because of the fact that I got lazy and never really cared about numbers, not because they can be faked. The only thing I keep is a copies of the maps of the caves I dive with highlighted areas that I have been in. I guess I am going to have to start logging my dives now. No big deal and I don't think a rule should be changed simply because I do not log dives. I am not asking for special treatment. I am simply saying that proof of past dives in that system should suffice.

You're talking to a guy who didn't log dives for well over a decade.

If it were not for my dive computer, I'd log almost none of them now. I have however found computer logging to be very helpful in terms of analyzing the dive, figuring actual SAC, etc. And oddly enough, looking at the dive graph in my Shearwater desktop software, I can pretty accurately identify where a dive may have taken place even before looking at my notes to recall where we dove when, at least if we've done the dive a few times before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FW

Because you don't dive in "training" caves :-D

That's exactly the point. The average diver seeking Abe Davis for purposes such as diving in Cow are going to have a fair number of dives in training/tourist caves, and a suspicious profile will, or at least should, stand out to an instructor who spends lots of time in those same caves.
01-04-2012 09:26 PM
MichaelAngelo

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Here's an idea.

How about you continue to slowly progress through the levels, then take Full Cave, then gain some experience past Full Cave, and once you have your 100, go dive Cow. Like you know you should be doing.

...ya know.... instead of throwing out worst case scenarios, situations that represent the minority, lowering the standards for diving what most consider a pristine cave system, creating an unnecessary incentive to following the rules(?!?), and speeding up your access into Cow.

This isn't about you. Its about Cow.

I agree 100%.
01-05-2012 11:16 AM
Greenwood_60

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

The minority rush through certification, the minority choose not to follow the rules.

... and the minority do the majority of the damage at Cow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Most people take their time through the different stages of cave training, therefor, they're going to reach 100 hours after Intro, far sooner than 100 Full Cave dives. Yet, much of those hours will be on relatively simple dives. The experience will not be the same as when they are diving caves with the training and complexity of a full certification. Everything up to that simply falls short.

... and most people don't do the majority of the damage at Cow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

Is the 100 safe, post Full Cave, measurement perfect? No. Nobody has claimed it so. But its the best measurement we have. Its DEFINATELY better than implementing a new system(which would require either a new award to be presented, or a rewrite of current rules, or alot more effort from the key holders in order to add up bottom times from logbooks(??)), that is equally as weak at best, and far more impracticle as it gives credit to handicapped experience.

You are correct, it would be a huge pain in the ass to rewrite the award, and will probably never happen. When has practicality ever stopped an internet discussion?

Regardless, does Kathy add up your dives? Or even flip to the last page? Or even check if you have a log book?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn

As an Intro diver, you're halfway to being a Cave Diver. It should be pretty obvious why the time there shouldn't count towards actual cave diving experience in terms of getting into more advanced or less forgiving divesites.

OK, so maybe dives at Intro shouldn't count. But why on earth shouldn't Apprentice? What about all the dives you do after Full, that you could have been done at Apprentice? Should those count?

Abe Davis gives equal credit to every dive regardless of the dives parameters. Fine.

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