Message we send

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

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Typically when I do exploration I don't leave toys,nicks nacks etc on the line and in the passage as I explore. There is no such thing as exploration with out human impact,and my goal as well as other is to minimize it. Do you honestly think hiding a mask in Peacock or Ginnie is something that facilitates exploration,or grabbing rocks and peering around corners like grade schoolers at an Easter egg hunt. I guess Sheck left the chapter out of his book that the reason he explored so much cave is because he was looking for the Holy Grail.

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Wouldn't some consider a plaque a "nick nack"? Yet you advocate replacing a "nick nack" in a cave?

Which side of the fence are you on?

Personally I think all this discussion online will eventually lead to more strict rules for the "tourist" caves... maybe that would be a good thing in your (some people's) eyes...

Either way, we at least all agree on one thing. Intentional defacing of a cave is not acceptable behavior and should be addressed. After that, our views diverge.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

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Originally Posted by defunct

Are you serious?

What is wrong with encouraging trained members of your or any other cave agency to "go off the mainline and explore"? If a gimmick of a mask does that, then maybe an extra high quality explorer will be created that otherwise would have not been created. Then again, maybe that is your goal? Limit the number of those divers willing to explore a cave rather then simply "stay in the lines"?

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There is every reason to encourage exploration, and there are incentives to do it. Looking for a hidden object is not a facilitator to exploration.

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Well, now I have to do two serious posts in a year. Beginning to give me hives.

I'll tell you what Kelly, the next time you go exploring, you know break out your pail and shovel or are squirming along in a tight sidemount, you know when your pee valve is getting clogged with silt and you are using a steel tank as a curb feeler, how about pausing a moment and considering the term "Hypocrite" and its definitions.

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Typically when I do exploration I don't leave toys,nicks nacks etc on the line and in the passage as I explore. There is no such thing as exploration with out human impact,and my goal as well as other is to minimize it. Do you honestly think hiding a mask in Peacock or Ginnie is something that facilitates exploration,or grabbing rocks and peering around corners like grade schoolers at an Easter egg hunt. I guess Sheck left the chapter out of his book that the reason he explored so much cave is because he was looking for the Holy Grail.

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Wow, three serious posts in a row. I will need a shot of rum before this is over.

NO, I do not believe that hiding a mask is doing anything for exploration, however, the "human impact" of doing so is far less than most exploration dives. To imply otherwise is just silly. Sorry, but you just can't convince me that moving a mask (or a godzilla) around is doing anything harmful.

Secondly, It saddens me when we forget that most cave divers are doing this for fun. It is a hobby. Statistically, 50% of those diving now will not be in 5 years, and 85% will not be in 10. This is susposed to be, for a lot of people, a recreational activity. Most people view their recreational activities as fun. Moving a Godzilla (or a mask) around is fun. Finding the bats is fun. Stop light room, thats fun. Squeezing my aged fat ass into Anderson or Charles, thats fun. And if you don't think Sheck left certain bits and bobs at the end of his exploration lines, then you are kidding yourself, or trying to kid others. I've seen them, so have you.

I still enjoy Easter egg hunts (with my grandneices and nephews who are grade schoolers and a lot of fun). I enjoy screwing with my buddy at deco, I enjoy having a trim weight eased onto my back while I'm swimming, I enjoy chasing fish, and I generally enjoy making fun of caver95, but then who doesn't.

So, as a public service (mainly to myself), here is the message that I want the public to get:

We have dozens of good, serious active instructors. We have hundreds of good, serious active cave divers. There are many thousands of safe cave dives done every year, and our record of conservation is as good or better than any other outdoor sport such as mountain biking, hiking, rock climbing, hunting, fishing, motorcross, camping, shooting, anything you can mention. Most (99.8%) cave divers understand the sensitive nature of their environment and do their best to minimize impact to it. Most of us dive to our level of comfort. Most of us are safe, and overall we have a good safety record. Profit is not a four letter word and does not diminish the intentions or efforts of our instructors. Newly certified divers are always welcome, as long as you dive within your personal skill level. Most of us will gladly answer questions and help you any way we can. Go out into the world and have fun and be safe.

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Originally Posted by defunct

Wouldn't some consider a plaque a "nick nack"? Yet you advocate replacing a "nick nack" in a cave?

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I don't have a problem with a limited number of cave nick nacks. Some that were tiny identifying markers on/near lines were actually quite useful in learning the caves in my earlier cave diving years - a more unique marker then a personal line arrow and one everyone could see and use without adding undo clutter.

End of line markers however are probably damaging to the cave since they lead people to push to the end of the line in order to identify or claim to have seen XYZ end of line nick nack. Nick nacks - if placed at all - should probably be main line only in easily accessible areas of the cave. Provide personality without clutter and not interfere with the line's main function as a safety device.

On that line of thinking memorials - if placed at all - should probably also be be main line only in easily accessible areas of the cave. Since there is only one gold line in some caves and no one wants to be confronted with dozens of memorials along the main line it just isn't sustainable to allow memorials to be added to public cave systems. One in a cave may be reasonable but people could add dozens and all have a near equal claim.

Memorial markers should probably be limited to private caves with an owner who gives permission and has a right to say what stays and what goes. No one has a right to claim their own personal corner of a public cave.

Cave nick nacks can get out of control easily and as a general rule probably shouldn't be there at all. In public caves there is no right to place such things and their removal is perfectly legal as trash, abandoned property, hazard, or public nuisance.

I'm not saying I haven't generally enjoyed them but I can see why such things should be discouraged.

Personally I hate these knick knacks. The godzilla - the cow - the frogs in telford - they're just bloody irritating. There you are swimming a beautiful piece of nature and someone has seen fit to dump a $1.99 child's toy in there... Even the bats irritate me.