Pull and glide vs ???

Andrew,

PM sent.

Mike M

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mike

2 mile run ?

I'd be too exhausted to dive after that.

So I guess the problem would be solved then.

Only the strongest survive... I mean dive. :-D

Mike M

---

Sheesh mike - even I'd only make you do it once!! :lol:

Once !!!

Hell, I'm in pretty good shape, but I have found that running is not my thing, unless her husband comes home early. :-D

Thanks for the link Andrew, great stuff.

Mike M

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aainslie

Why is it "appropriate"? The problem is that everyone has decided that if there's a white rock, it's "appropriate" to grab it and haul away. Then a chunk breaks off after a while... and so someone decides it's "appropriate" to grab the next piece. A little while later, the cave begins to look the way it does in the first 800 feet of Ginnie - white everywhere, debris on the floor, drag marks because people are too close to the bottom looking for grab points.

90% of "appropriate" pull and glide is more a function of the diver's poor technique and/or physical condition than anything else. My instructor strongly discouraged "grab and drag" . I wish we'd stop calling it "pull and glide", which sounds so very nice, and at the very least find a more pejorative term for the practice.

I once swam to 3200 feet in Ginnie. The only time we touched the cave were lips to past cornflakes, and again around 3200 feet, although even in those cases my instructor (largely though example) made it clear that grab and drag was infra dignitatis.

An interesting little swim is from Henkle to the end of the gold line. The flow is halacious - but a) there are not many grab points, and b) you're going to do damage if you do grab. So you either learn to kick, or you're screwed. And... believe me, if you can swim there, you can swim anywhere.

I'm not saying NEVER grab and drag. I'm just saying do it judiciously, and with full understanding that it has negative ramifications. Not, as on often sees, while swanning along the section between the keyhole and maple leaf, or in the roller coaster tunnel, or Hillier, or Hill 400, or all the other paw-encrusted area where no-one with any reasonable level of fitness should be grab and dragging.

And if the flow is too high for your level of fitness, there's always Mexico, or Peacock, or the other low flow caves.

A final point - I'm no uber ahlete - I'm 47, like my steak and beer, and exercise less than 2 hours a week. My doctor whines a bit about my laziness. So I'm not doing any chest-thumping here. Just trying to cut our caves some slack.

...Although a mandatory 2 mile run in under 1/2 hour as an entrance condition to Ginnie would be both entertaining and good for the cave!!!
:D

---

Pulling and gliding into the flow uses less energy than swimming into the flow.

If you disagree with that statement, then that's clearly where we part ways on this discussion. I originally typed this response using the word "efficient" instead of "uses less energy", but efficiently moving through a cave requires a bunch of things. The point there being that a better diver might move through a cave more efficiently without pulling than a less skilled diver who is pulling. All other things being equal though...

Balancing the greater efficiency of pulling and gliding against the increased impact to the cave is something that we all do as cave divers. You draw the line closer to "last resort" than I do. My point in my previous post was simply to point out that different divers draw that line in different places.

Brian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brianstclair

Pulling and gliding into the flow uses less energy than swimming into the flow.

Balancing the greater efficiency of pulling and gliding against the increased impact to the cave is something that we all do as cave divers.
Brian

---

I have to agree with both of you. As Brian said, deciding to touch the cave is a balancing act we all play with. However, I think Andrew is right on the mark, far to often I feel that folks choose to touch over improving technique. I had a dive where a first time buddy was leading and chose touch exclusively. I saw bits of cave literally before my eyes - quite a bit of ground was covered, but at what expense? Even after pointing it out, it was the same - I did stay with my buddy, but that is the last dive I will make with them. In this case, there was no concern for the cave and only for going further, as fast as possible - no time to see the cave other than the to find handholds. What is the point of this, other than for distance glory?

On the point of less energy. I fully agree. That same "cave pieces in my face" (what I titled it in my wetnotes logbook) dive, I learned that in a true emergency, I can cover roughly twice the distance with the same exertion level and air consumption - I KNOW it will damage the cave, but if it means the difference of whether or not I make it out (or I at least believe it will) - I will choose to do it. I have not had to do it yet, but I know it is an option better than writing a novel.

I do believe there are appropriate times to touch the cave. Very high flow areas, as Andrew pointed out, like the lips. When exertion can be a real problem - a little touch assist helps. But also keep in mind - even in places like the lips, you can streamline your body to minimize drag and move to let the cave block some of the flow. It can be really fun trying to challenge yourself to figure out how to minimize exertion without touching the cave through technique.

I will also point out that touching the cave does not imply ripping out karst by the roots! I use the word touch because sometimes a VERY gentle tip of one finger is all it takes - but it is contact, and that damages the cave no matter how subtle - take for exaple Potters Delight in Madison Blue - a gentle touch works wonders for anti-silting and less damage to the cave results. You could wear away another layer of clay, gouge or otherwise with a fin or instead choose to cross touch down the tunnel with no finning at all.

I have been taught and definitely believe in minimizing contact with the cave and keeping its best interests in mind as I judge whether or not a light, firm or something in the middle touch is appropriate or not...usually I think not. I do believe and have seen first hand a point where it is clearly too much contact - I do not believe there can be too little. If you have to err, go no-contact.

Just my opinion.

Bob


Andrew - PM sent.

Good post Bob.

Cave diving as I see it is a balancing act.

Any time you touch the cave you are damaging it, whether you break off a piece or not, your presence & touch, even if it was just a touch damages the cave.

But go into Edwards through the flow & how do you get through the slit 120' down to the actual tunnel?
There is no place to get out of the flow, It is a grudge match to just get there & have enough gas to do your dive unless you take stages.

All caves are different & like I already said we are damaging them just by touching them, that is agreed upon I think, but some places warrant pull & glide or pull & drag as Andrew said.

I for one will think more about pulling & gliding (dragging) in caves that I should be able to read, I guess you could call it a form of complacency because it's so easy to do & not think about what you need to be paying attention to, the flow of the cave & how to master it.

Mike M

Wow Mike!

Quote:

---

I for one will think more about pulling & gliding (dragging) in caves that I should be able to read, I guess you could call it a form of complacency because it's so easy to do & not think about what you need to be paying attention to, the flow of the cave & how to master it.

---

You couldn't have said it any better. As a new cave diver I have been following this thread and trying to weigh all of the different opinions that have been posted. To be honest, I really enjoy the feeling of a well executed "Pull & Glide," but I too will be thinking more about whether-or-not I am doing it out of "necessity", or complacency. In other words, "should I" be able to read the cave better. I know that I myself have been guilty of a pull-and-glide out of laziness, when I should have taken the time to observe my surroundings and get to "know" the cave. I'm going to make an effort to weigh my decisions a little heavier in the future. Thanks everyone!

Some nice, balanced replies to my somewhat overstated position. I agree, it's about balance. And if we all just think a little before pulling, a) our technique will improve and b) the caves will be less damaged.

Sorry if I came off a bit strong. But I want to scream every time I see someone pulling in an area where it's easy to swim!

Andrew, don't stop screaming.

It's people like you that keep us aware of what we need to be doing.

Everybody sees things in a different way.

I love hearing everybody's views, regardless of how they say them.

That's what I love about this forum, you say your piece & it pretty much stays civil.

If not the old rule #6 will come back & hunt you down . :-D

I have seen your posts & I have seen your videos & you do some really fantastic dives.

I appreciate any input you have to the forum.

Mike M

Interesting how the thread has moved on. Looks like I need to stay in open water.

Thanks for your thougts everyone.