Any news from Ginnie today?

If someone shared information about a recovery they were on, I would hold whatever is communicated in confidence.# If they wanted it public, I assume they#would post it themselves.# If the purpose for sharing with me was (spoken or unspoken) for me to serve as a conduit to get the information out publicly, I would consider politely declining and maybe ask myself why I was chosen for this.# If you post information about a cave diving accident or recovery operation that you weren't involved in and don't have specific relevant information to add, it looks like a particularly morbid form of clout chasing,#despite whatever noble intentions you may have.##


It would be nice if IUCRR voluntarily#posted reports like they used to.# When I started cave diving the IUCRR reports were important reading to reinforce best diving practices to follow and malpractices to avoid.# I came up in a time period where there were very few cave diving accidents in Florida, and almost all of the#ones that occurred were connected to inadequate training or equipment.# It seems like the past decade has had a lot more accidents, many of them divers who on paper had#all the required training and equipment.# Maybe the message of getting correct cave diving equipment and training was too successful, and it is worth investigating what,#if anything can or should be done to stop fatalities by trained and equipped divers.# Maybe the answer is nothing.# This hobby has a nonzero amount of risk to it, and the more complicated your dive plan is the#higher your risk.# #It seems there are a lot more complicated dives happening now on a more regular basis than in the past and a lot more divers doing them.# Those complicated dives are going to have complicated recoveries if there is a fatality. Recovering a body from several thousand feet back in Devil's was an amazing achievement.

If you want to get information about old accidents, send a public records request to the relevant law enforcement organization.# If IUCRR#submitted a report to them, you should be able to get it this way.# You will probably get the runaround from the PIO# but be persistent enough and you will probably get what you are asking for eventually.# #No matter what, you won't get it immediately since they will tell you the#investigation is ongoing, but once it's closed they are probably out of excuses not to provide it.# Focus your efforts on the people who are paid to deal with inquiries from "concerned citizens".



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daedalus

# It seems like the past decade has had a lot more accidents, many of them divers who on paper had#all the required training and equipment.# Maybe the message of getting correct cave diving equipment and training was too successful, and it is worth investigating what,#if anything can or should be done to stop fatalities by trained and equipped divers.# Maybe the answer is nothing.# ...

---

To an ignoramus like myself is seems that it's almost always people on rebreathers. Those weren't around nearly as much 10 or 15 years ago. Yet, lots of the ccr divers I talk to say they are as safe or safer in caves compared to OC. I find that odd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bent

To an ignoramus like myself is seems that it's almost always people on rebreathers. Those weren't around nearly as much 10 or 15 years ago. Yet, lots of the ccr divers I talk to say they are as safe or safer in caves compared to OC. I find that odd.

---

One unreported IUCRR recovery in Ginnie was on OC. This was someone that I knew and was in one of my cave courses. This was several years ago, but no report has been completed by the IUCRR despite the recovery being done by them. This is also not a "lag" in reporting because they have one report from a more recent incident on the website. This was on a DPV which I think is far more dangerous than CCR

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbone1004

One unreported IUCRR recovery in Ginnie was on OC. This was someone that I knew and was in one of my cave courses. This was several years ago, but no report has been completed by the IUCRR despite the recovery being done by them. This is also not a "lag" in reporting because they have one report from a more recent incident on the website. This was on a DPV which I think is far more dangerous than CCR

---

Knock yourself out:

Dear <NAME>:

Pursuant to Article I, section 24 of the Florida Constitution, and chapter 119, F.S., I am requesting an opportunity to inspect or obtain copies of public records in the possession of the Gilchrist County Sheriff's Office that relate to a cave diving fatality which occurred in the location of "Devil's Eye/Ear Spring" and/or "Ginnie Springs Outdoors" on or about <DATE>.# I am specifically requesting copies of any reports submitted by the diver(s) who recovered the body or equipment of the deceased (aka divers from the International Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery "IUCCR"), as well as any electronic file downloads from the deceased diver's computer, if available.

I would prefer electronic scanned copies of these records, if possible.#If there are any fees required for searching, scanning, or copying these records, please inform me before filling my request. I am willing to pay fees for this request up to a maximum of $50.00. If you estimate that the fees will exceed this limit, please inform me first.##

Should you deny my request, or any part of the request, please state in writing the basis for the denial, including the exact statutory citation authorizing the denial as required by s. 119.07(1)(d), F.S.

Please e-mail me back to#advise when I may expect fulfillment of my request, and payment of any required fees.# If you have any questions in the interim, you may contact me via phone at <NUMBER> or via e-mail at <EMAIL>.




Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Knock yourself out:

Dear <NAME>:

Pursuant to Article I, section 24 of the Florida Constitution, and chapter 119, F.S., I am requesting an opportunity to inspect or obtain copies of public records in the possession of the Gilchrist County Sheriff's Office that relate to a cave diving fatality which occurred in the location of "Devil's Eye/Ear Spring" and/or "Ginnie Springs Outdoors" on or about <DATE>.# I am specifically requesting copies of any reports submitted by the diver(s) who recovered the body or equipment of the deceased (aka divers from the International Underwater Cave Rescue and Recovery "IUCCR"), as well as any electronic file downloads from the deceased diver's computer, if available.

I would prefer electronic scanned copies of these records, if possible.#If there are any fees required for searching, scanning, or copying these records, please inform me before filling my request. I am willing to pay fees for this request up to a maximum of $50.00. If you estimate that the fees will exceed this limit, please inform me first.##

Should you deny my request, or any part of the request, please state in writing the basis for the denial, including the exact statutory citation authorizing the denial as required by s. 119.07(1)(d), F.S.

Please e-mail me back to#advise when I may expect fulfillment of my request, and payment of any required fees.# If you have any questions in the interim, you may contact me via phone at <NUMBER> or via e-mail at <EMAIL>.




Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

---

Please see the quote from the IUCRR website that says if they can, they will. They can, they haven't and/or won't

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbone1004

Please see the quote from the IUCRR website that says if they can, they will. They can, they haven't and/or won't

---

See the last paragraph of my post immediately prior to that one. Dont bother IUCRR, ask GCSO directly if you are so interested.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daedalus

See the last paragraph of my post immediately prior to that one. Dont bother IUCRR, ask GCSO directly if you are so interested.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

---

so because the IUCRR doesn't do what they're saying they will do, instead of pressing them to actually do it, we're supposed to let them off the hook and go around? That is ridiculous

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbone1004

so because the IUCRR doesn't do what they're saying they will do, instead of pressing them to actually do it, we're supposed to let them off the hook and go around? That is ridiculous

---

You must not be really that interested.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by farmerted

I was one of the people who asked that the thread be closed. I did not send any nasty messages or anything. To me there was a good reason for it. The deceased spouse is also a cave diver. They were not in town. This person had also not been told much at the time. Why I do not know. Is it too much to ask to wait a few days or a week? Part of the process of doing recoveries is to gather forensic data. This information is then used to discover what happened. When the extraction has been completed the recovery divers are asked not to share the details outside of the team until the investigation has been finished. This stems from the law enforcement side I would guess. I?m not saying I agree with any of this, but that is what was asked of me. Now we have one of the team ask someone to post the facts so they remain anonymous. The reason is to get the details out to save lives. The anonymity is so that the team member does not want to get kicked off the team? Really? Personally I don?t care if I ever do another recovery. They should have just posted it directly. For what it?s worth, I don?t know who it was and don?t care.
So now I am a good ole boy and am hiding behind the cloak of protecting the family because I?m hoarding the information in secrecy. Thanks. What a conspiracy this is. I don?t agree with anyone withholding information about these instances. In my post I did say that if nothing was put out in a timely manner that I would post what I know and I will. All I asked for was that the thread be taken down as then was not the time. It could have waited a few days. An accident report is not needed to talk about hypoxia and huds and such. Just start a thread about it.
Last Friday. I got to go in a cave for 5 hours. During that dive, I had to work hard. While you try your best not to, you will see their face. That face was someone I knew and liked. He was a friend. I did this for the sake of his family so they could have closure. I don?t want to talk about it for a little bit. Someone else does? Fine. Don?t hide behind anonymity. I merely asked for the thread to be closed as it was too soon. Cant things wait a few days? In this day and age, we have become accustomed to instant gratification. I believe this has led to a decline in self control. There is much we can learn from this incident. Waiting a short period changes nothing. Please have some respect.
Ted McCoy
386-292-9936

---

My thoughts on the matter mirror this exactly.

Of all comments, discussions, and threads started about this incident, these few paragraphs that Ted wrote are the only words that I feel that I can relate to right now.

Ted, thank you for everything. Especially thanks for being out front on that dive.

We owe each other a beer... or a coffee or whatever...

- Adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daedalus

You must not be really that interested.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

---

This is part of that mentality of not sharing information. For those with knowledge of these past incidents (not just talking about this most recent one), don't you want to share that information with the hope that it could help others and make the sport safer? It seems like the answer is "no" from a lot of people to the point of actually silencing others. It seems insane to me to suggest someone do a public records request to gather information when we have a cave rescue and recovery organization that's purpose is to do those recoveries and in the course of that process also gathers relevant information from the knowledge and lens of a fellow cave diver.