Experienced Cavers and Tech Divers Who've Died

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Originally Posted by Jax

<--- 'nother newbie.

I find the analysis on these boards to be most helpful. Every single one (except P Turner) seems to involve a tiny misjudgement, exacerbated by complacency, arrogance, and sometimes just plain stupidity.

The list of names would not do as much as the constant analysis that discovers this same trend over and over.

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Just to be fair, I don't think you can generalize all of the fatalities like this. For examlpe, Bill McFaden was not complacent, arrogant or stupid. I suppose you could say it was a tiny misjudgement to dive air at 210' on an exploration/mapping dive, but that was the normal practice on 15 May 1988 and was being done every day/weekend for many, many years.

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Originally Posted by FW

With Roberta, it was mostly poor decision making. If she had turned the dive when the drysuit started leaking, she would have made it out OK. She was too goal oriented, and tried to complete her survey, in spite of the flooded suit, in 50 degree water.

You can add "goal obsession" to the list of things that cause well trained cave divers to have accidents.
To list a few:
Sheck Exley, trying to set a depth record.
Steve Berman, trying to finish a map
Roberta Swicegood, trying to finish a survey.
Ron Simmons, trying to finish a map.

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Amen to that. I should have turned the dive when my suit first started to flood. Good thing I was on the Peanut Line.

What about Rob Parker?

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Originally Posted by Tracydr

What about Rob Parker?

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Diving without sufficient gas for the depth/length of the cave.

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Originally Posted by FW

Steve Berman, trying to finish a map
Roberta Swicegood, trying to finish a survey.
Ron Simmons, trying to finish a map.

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KInd of food for thought for one thing that has always concerned me,and that is the practice of surveying on your way out.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

KInd of food for thought for one thing that has always concerned me,and that is the practice of surveying on your way out.

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I doubt it was because they were surveying on their way out. I think it's because they are surveying and either concentrating on their notes/sketch or trying to trying to maximize the work done on a single dive. I don't think that relates to whether it was "on the way out" or "on the way in" surveying a laid line. My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Tracydr

What about Rob Parker?

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Diving without sufficient gas for the depth/length of the cave.

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Rob had also been out of diving for some time and was not "dive fit" - he was trying to complete some work started by the late Rob Palmer who had recently died on a deep air dive in the Red Sea*.

I think Forrest summed it up when he expressed the view that "goal obsession" (exploration fever) clouds one's judgement which then leads on to the rest. Certainly this is the case with the experienced friends I've lost - there had been other factors but in the end the victim had forgotten that "there is nothing in this cave worth dying for"

* another example of what I'm getting at.

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Originally Posted by Duncan Price

Rob had also been out of diving for some time and was not "dive fit" - he was trying to complete some work started by the late Rob Palmer who had recently died on a deep air dive in the Red Sea*.

I think Forrest summed it up when he expressed the view that "goal obsession" (exploration fever) clouds one's judgement which then leads on to the rest. Certainly this is the case with the experienced friends I've lost - there had been other factors but in the end the victim had forgotten that "there is nothing in this cave worth dying for"

* another example of what I'm getting at.

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Thanks for the additional perspective on R Parker.

I'd heard various thoughts on R Palmer. One was that he backrolled off the boat in sidemount and his tank(s) might have flipped up and whacked him in the head and knocked him silly. The other was that he had a buoyancy incident. Some people zoomed in on the "deep air" concept, but it might not have ever gotten to that point. Maybe you know more Duncan.

Whatever, while I think it's a good idea to learn from the mistakes, and maybe accidents, of others, we're always just guessing at the problems.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

KInd of food for thought for one thing that has always concerned me,and that is the practice of surveying on your way out.

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we always survey in.
I could never wrap my brain around why people do it on the way out. especially in deeper caves on open circuit.

while I'm doing tieoffs etc. it leaves plenty of time for number two man to collect the survey. more often than not, doing it on the way out will lead to the survey not getting done and having to go back anyway...

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Originally Posted by LiteHedded

we always survey in.
I could never wrap my brain around why people do it on the way out. especially in deeper caves on open circuit.

while I'm doing tieoffs etc. it leaves plenty of time for number two man to collect the survey. more often than not, doing it on the way out will lead to the survey not getting done and having to go back anyway...

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It was Sheck Exley that started the idea of surveying on the way out. It came from the "dry" cave practice of surveying as you go, but they don't have to lay line, or worry about saving gas for exit. What else is different about Sheck's method, from what Berman and Simmons did, was Sheck only did the exit survey on line he had just laid. Berman and Simmons were re-surveying previously laid line. Previously laid line should be surveyed on the way IN, not going out. Exley's practice isn't really safe, unless you turn well before thirds.

FWIW, the person with the right idea is still alive. Andrew Ainslie said "always have double the gas needed to exit from any point". If you turn at thirds, and don't dally, that fits his concept. It will also work for surveying, if you are real sure you know where you are, and how much gas is needed for exit from there. It is a little hard to calculate, if you are preoccupied doing something else, like surveying.