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I missed the cavern cert. I'll dial back the snarkiness of my original post by 30%. Good enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by nkavallar
It depends on the system. I've been in caverns like JB and Morrison for the first time without guides, and been comfortable. I've been in other systems that I wouldn't have entered without a guide that I trusted.Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
Horrible walk in, horrible walk out. Great dives.
As you guys can imagine, I've had a few PM's. I will say that everyone who has sent one has been very respectful in what they have sent. Some shared some awesome stories, some disagreed with what I have said, all were welcome and appreciated.
This has been an interesting welcome to the CDF. Some of the best advice from one of those PM's told me if I want to be successful in cave diving, stay off the forums. LOL
I don't think I've been scared away from the forum, Thanks again everyone for the advice.
First, I want to add my support for having the guts to come on here and take your lumps. And also for deciding to get properly trained.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon362
But I was a little disturbed by the above comment, and no one pointed out the fallacy of that thinking. To me, that is the heart of the problem. Someone doing the "resort course" dive or "try scuba" on vacation is not the same as doing open water training. If you remember your open water course, some of it was about planning, but most of it concerned what to do when things go wrong. The same applies to open water divers in a cavern or cave environment. It's great to say you PLAN to stay in the upper section, PLAN to stay above 100'and PLAN to stay out of the overhead. But the chances of something not going according to plan must be taken into account, especially in a dirty, silty, muddy environment where you could get disoriented quickly.
I'm glad things went well and everyone is safe. And I am not accusing anyone of knowingly going beyond their training. It is the unknowingly part that folks need to understand. We don't do training for when things go right. We train for when things go wrong.
Congrats again on a safe dive.
I am sure you didn't, but that is because you probably have a different perspective than a "new" diver looking for caving experience. I thought it was bashing, but then again............you say potato and I say potatoe........Quote:
Originally Posted by Superlyte27
Buford is not kinda a cavern dive, it is a cavern dive. If something happens to one of the open water divers you are leading what will the lawyers say? Having a cavern card and leading open water divers into a cavern are two different things. Good luck, maybe we can get both Eagle Nest and Buford closed in the same month.
Open Water as defined by Wikipedia:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Diving in an environment where the diver has direct vertical access to the surface of the water in contact with the Earth's atmosphere. "Open water diving" implies that if a problem arises, the diver can directly ascend vertically to the atmosphere to breathe air.
There are parts in Buford that meet this criteria.
Cavern as stated on the back of my cavern card:
Dive within the daylight zone, max depth 130', 200 linear ft. 40' Vis, No restrictions or Deco dives
There are parts in Buford that meet this criteria as well as parts that exceed these limits.
You lost me when you quoted Wikipedia. You're not helping yourself with your response. I don't think anyone with overhead training would call it anything other than an overhead dive, including both a cavern and a cave portion. You're fooling yourself saying it's not. That's just like the open water divers that enter Devil's system and say they're OK because it's just a direct swim out to open water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon362
That's like someone who has no overhead wreck training going into the wreck, but it wasn't penetration cause you could easily swim right out a porthole.
I have dove buford plenty of times. Are you going to tell me that the OW divers you escorted to the site planned and executed an all OW dive and no cavern zone was entered by those divers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon362
I can tell by your posts, you are skirting the question and that you know what you are doing. Just don't be the name in the news, because now that it is proven you know better, you will have a tough time in court. These threads exist forever, just like everything else online... Be careful.
If I was your cavern instructor, I would call you up and give you some advice... not sure if you would listen though...
I've come here with an open mind willing to listen and learn. Thats why I have continued to follow this thread. Pretty easy for me to log off and walk away and not learn anything. I've taken to heart everything said here, both in the public thread and the numerous Pm's I've received. I've responded to every Pm and read every reply. Take a moment and put yourself in my shoes, when your cave diving career was new and fresh, when you spent every free moment you had learning about the sport you found yourself wrapped up in. I try and dive every chance that I get. It's still fun for me. I enjoy diving with those that are more experienced than me because just by watching sometimes you learn something new. I comb the old threads, read the accident reports. I'm here because when I'm not diving, I am usually thinking about it.
I'm sure a lot of this advise comes from your own close calls. Lessons learned from watching friends and strangers make poor choices, and reading about it in the papers.
It's easy to stand up and look down at those below you. It's even more fun to reach down and grab ahold of someone and pull them up to your level, because now there are two of you at that level. Everyone was a beginner once and I'm sure made their own mistakes.
I was fortunate that no one got hurt, we had a good time. Make sure to be extra careful, because todays world is filled with blame and lawsuits. Lesson learned.
Sounds like the best advise I have received during this is to just stay off the forums and be safe diving.
All I hear in your response is you speaking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you want to learn. On the other hand you only want to listen to and follow what's best for you. People here are only trying to help you be smarter and not negatively affect our sites.
You almost have an air of disdain in your comment to stay off the forum. Then stay off of it if you don't like it. I think most who post regularly dive just as regularly and like you constantly think about diving. So when we have to live in the real world and can't dive, we screw around here.