Super Wal-Mart/Alachua Sink

Has the development plan and modifications to the flow of surface and/or groundwater been put in front of the Suwannee River Water Management District? In Southwest Florida, any modification to surface or subsurface flow is a development permit issue which is reviewed by the South Florida Water Management District. The people who work at the local office are very knowledgeable, professional, and forthright. They are charged with protecting the water resources of the State of Florida, and take it very seriously.

The local Water Management District may be interested in looking at the potential impact to the surface water flow and aquifer. The creek noted in the earier post may interest them as well. They have more clout than most State agencies, and can make life very difficult for noncooperative entitites.

Mark

Here's reality guys and gals...

There are solutions to water run-off problems which may be involved here. They involve engineering - which the county commission can and should insist on, and they should further refuse a CO (certificate of occupancy) until and unless they have verified that these engineering specifications were followed.

NONE of that is difficult, or "abnormal." It simply requires that the people in the building department do their jobs. If you approve a construction project as drawn and submitted, then you don't issue a CO until it meets that specification as approved by your building department folks.

Over on another forum there have been allegations that WalMart intends to use concrete "battering rams" dropped from choppers to "collapse the karst". When challenged to document this (by ME!) the poster instead refused and started talking about illegal immigrants.

IOW, that claim was made to inflame rather than inform - and was most likely bullshit. I see that it was not made here - I wonder why?

There are significant pressure groups - most tied to organized labor - who are violently opposed to WalMart's success. That's fine - so long as they're honest about WHY they oppose the company. Problem is, they usually aren't honest.

I find the argument about "substandard wages" especially specious. As was noted by another poster, those jobs are unskilled. Want to know HOW BADLY unskilled? Go into a WalMart, buy something that has a total of $5.27, wait until they ring up your $6.00 "tender" and then give the clerk another two pennies. See if you get back three quarters - and how quickly what you did, and why, is figured out.

When I've done this fewer than half of the time I get back the correct change without either lots of hemming and hawing or a need to explain.

Folks, we're talking third-grade math and money here...... my daughter can do this in seconds, and she's NINE!

What other job would pay someone with this skill set more than minimum wage? NONE!

The note in the paper from the supermarket owner is particularly disingenuous - of course he's unhappy, as he'll have to cut prices or close his doors! That's not hard to figure out. But what requires a bit more thought is that the customers in the area will see their grocery bills go down by roughly 20% by shopping at the SuperCenter - and for people of modest income, that is a HUGE difference in their actual standard of living.

What brought WalMart there? Opportunity. How did that competitive opportunity arise? By local merchants charging high enough prices that WalMart believes they can sway traffic to THEIR store, and take competitive advantage. Who created the environment in which WalMart could do this? The local merchants who have been selling at prices that left open the opportunity for a better competitor to come along and clean their clocks.

I also noted that HIgh Springs is unhappy about this. Awwww.. Anyone wonder why? Here's a tidbit for you - WalMart allows RVers to park overnight on their property. Why? Because those RVers then come into the store and spend $100 or more on supplies. Consider it a very expensive parking spot and an incredibly smart business decision - one which has significant benefits for both parties to the transaction.

Of course some local businesses - like Ginnie - would be violently opposed to this development, because not only do they not offer the "free" parking, they then use their "captive audience" status to mark up their supplies as well.

And there you have the reality of it - some firms don't like the idea of a win-win relationship with their customers, as it cuts into what they can extract from them. Others see benefit in such relationships, and find ways to cultivate them.

One group tries to block the other from coming into their turf - but despite their claims to the contrary, its not about protecting YOU. Its about protecting THEM - at your expense.

First of all, dynamic compaction is a real technique for building on karst, although it's rarely done in Florida, and never from helicopters (think big cranes). Second, Walmart and dozens of other companies have pumped grout or flowable fill into cave passages beneath their buildings before. I know someone who worked on the one in Ocala that was mentioned.

The biggest thing that can help you stop this is the Endangered Species Act. It is the singlemost powerful tool we have to prevent cave damage. Document the endangered species in the cave - ALL of them. Amphipods, Isopods, Crayfish, whatever... Do this while you politely inform the local fish and wildlife types of the impending disaster and ask for their help. Find a local Professional Geologist who will be willing to be a pro bono consultant for the cause, because be damn sure Wal-Mart will have one paid to be on their side of the fence. Involve the FGS, NSS, NSS-CDS, NACD, everyone you know who is opposed....

Another route is to attack from the groundwater quality side. Demand monitoring before the construction, and after, to see what impacts there are. Remember, this is water that is going directly into local private and probably public drinking supply wells.

Just my 2 cents from a geologist's view,
Drew Glasbrenner

Cindy & Brian,

Better let T. Morse know about this stuff, lest he already does. { I presume he does} Maybe the three of you can move some mountains-!

Jack

It's only a freakin Walmart. It's not like it's a chemical storage area. If the people in FLA would contact the elected officials and pass laws to make all the rednecks fix the oil leaks, from their trucks , the parking lots wouldn't have all that oil running into the stream to begin with.

Ok guys, I am not a tree hugger in the true sense. I spent a good deal of time on this particular mission problem trying to work with the local government. Now it's come up again and I am right in the middle of two very time consuming projects. When Kelly emailed me about this I told him I simply do not have the time to take on another project right now. I like moving mountains, really I do, but I cannot move three at a time. Kelly Jessop who is on the BOD of the CDS (the CDS is by the way the managing agency for this cave) is trying to get something started. Please direct your energy and questions to him. I will continue to help Kelly as much as I can. It's not going to get anyplace without some people actually stepping forward and getting some very tough work done.

I would like to make one comment on the endangered species part. Quote from the biolgical study done by Tom Morris. 'Blind crayfish, the Pallid Cave crayfish (Procambarus pallidus and Procambarus (o.) lucinfungus alachua), the Florida Cave Amphipod (Crangonyx grandimus) and the Hobb's Cave Amphidod (Crangonyx hobsi) are all also found in the cave and are "species of special concearn" designated by the State of Florida. The Florida Committee on Rare and Endangers Biota of Florida has published the selected information for State of Florida Game and Freshwater Fish Commission. This information supports and recomments protection of these and other related cave species.'

ps. let me know if chaining myself to a tree would help! :D

Cindy Butler

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Originally Posted by novadiver

It's only a freakin Walmart. It's not like it's a chemical storage area. If the people in FLA would contact the elected officials and pass laws to make all the rednecks fix the oil leaks, from their trucks , the parking lots wouldn't have all that oil running into the stream to begin with.

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Where the hell do you think rednecks hangout?

you guys need to watch south park more often, thats how evil walmart is, lol

but yah, the building techniques, like filling in caves with cement, thats just sick, those caves took thousands of years to form, and they want to fill it all in so there frikin building doesnt sink.

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Originally Posted by Caver95

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Originally Posted by novadiver

It's only a freakin Walmart. It's not like it's a chemical storage area. If the people in FLA would contact the elected officials and pass laws to make all the rednecks fix the oil leaks, from their trucks , the parking lots wouldn't have all that oil running into the stream to begin with.

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Where the hell do you think rednecks hangout?

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The funny part about rednecks and cave divers ? if you saw a bunch of rednecks peeing in the spring run you would be pissed off, But if a bunch of rednecks saw you hooking up your pee valve they would just have pee valve envy ;-)

Thanks for the bottom line - "dynamic compaction" has not been used in Florida. There you go - the claim that it WAS to be used now appears false.

Bottom line here is that while there are concerns related to runoff, those concerns can be dealt with.

As far as load-related damage, forgetaboutit. The load from a building such as a Supercenter is not very high - its a single story, and spread over a huge area. This is not a high-rise going up with point-source loading in the pylons that form the anchorment for the foundation - its a poured slab that diffuses the load over the entire area.