Forum for private cave discussion

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Lips entering into the Peanut tunnel was not discernable,that is the reason for the mistake,Peanut restriction was a real restriction.

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Mistake?

I was referring to the Lips at Devil's Eye. I guess I shouldn't have grouped restrictions from 3 different systems into the same sentence :-)

Hiding our words from the public eye does not set well with me. I don't want to be part of any group that does that. I am sure I am a part of some groups or insititutions that has such hiding policies (tennessee subforum for one), but I don't like it. I think it's a mistake and will have negative consequences in the long run. Imagine the poor intro to cave diver who earns full cave and discovers that all along there's been a secret society communing on the internet, controlling things behind the scenes, an elite cadre of only those who meet the criteria. If that happened to me I would have resigned from every cave organization, told all the training agencies to take a hike and gone out on my own to discover cave diving with nary a look at a mentor or so-called elitist superior sob so ego-obsessed that he/she thinks that what they had to discuss was to harsh for tender ears, to dangerous for the uninitiated, to blasphemous for the religious.

Go on, create your own little secret world, just leave me out of it. I'll say what I want to say openly to all who have the time and inclination to read it and I'll stand by it too. And if someone is foolish enough to die from my words, that is not my fault. I take responsibility for my actions and resent it when someone else, in the name of so-called concern, takes that responsibility away from me, claiming to protect me from myself. no thanks.

-skip

I think a main part of this discussion that might be overlooked is the contrast of not revealing something to the public and hiding something from the public. I think this idea of a private, entry-controlled forum belongs to the latter.

Some people are comparing a private forum online to a discussion at a park bench at a dive site. That's not really the best analogy in my opinion. People won't be suspicious at divers talking to each other face to face because there is no criteria for what they talk about. Could be the rules they break diving, the football game the day before, what they had for lunch, gear configurations, their new rifle, or how much their spouse pisses them off. However, if we create a private forum or subforum for controversial issues, people will know we are talking about controversial issues. A remedy to that would to make all discussions private to go back to the idea of they could be talking about anything, but just between a few people. I don't like that either; that sounds like becoming a Good Old Boys Club where a select few decide who is worthy of being let in on their discussions.

I, being a new overhead diver, have learned a lot from this forum, especially the rules discussions and the contemplations about the circumstances of our most recent loss. A lot of discussions on here have a lot of thought put into them and they create intelligent discourse, which is perhaps the basest foundation of human intelligence and progress. Almost all discussions I've read put an emphasis on moving toward safer practices, whatever the means may be.

If you want to have controversial discussions, do it through personally private means: in person, on the phone, private emails or PMs. Don't do it on a public website, even behind a barricade, because certain people will see at least some level of it and probably not like it very much.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

Kelly,

Why not simply do what TDS does, and require people to register before reading?

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Good point,and I wondered why the owners/moderators have the forum open to all versus registered users but with private forums,that is why I posed the poll like I did.

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Originally Posted by FW

Mistake?

I was referring to the Lips at Devil's Eye. I guess I shouldn't have grouped restrictions from 3 different systems into the same sentence :-)

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The line heading to the Peanut tunnel used to stop around the sign. You had to run a reel into the Peanut tunnel to find the permenant line. Often,people would miss the lips just before the Peanut tunnel and continue straight ahead into what is called the mistake. At one time the lips was not easily discernable,but now with the wear and tear,it is very obvious.

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Originally Posted by skip

. I am sure I am a part of some groups or insititutions that has such hiding policies (tennessee subforum for one), but I don't like it.

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I don't think the moderators set things up for secretiveness,but a way of bringing together like interested people. I appreciate your opinions Skip,and I would hate to see you not post your thoughts. Keep filming those great videos you showed.

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Originally Posted by Jim Wyatt

Not all their free time, no. But I know for a fact that they look and also have people reporting to them regarding the contents of these forums.

My phone has rung more than once from "Landowners" asking me about stuff they read here or on other forums. I attend meetings where "Landowners" are present and ask about what is going on in regards to various postings on this & other forums.

You may be surprised at who all actually reads this stuff & it does not require all of their free time.

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Thanks Jim.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

Wendell I appreciate your comments,and they are very valid. Before the internet there was picnic table pontificating where these ideas would be expressed in a small forum. Unfortunately the internet has opened the Pandora's box for easy communication,the lid will never be closed. To encourage certain things not be posted out of sensitivies will involve a universal acceptance, which will be nearly impossible,plus if people don't like the rules of this forum,then there are somany others to chose from. I am sure that Craig Jenni could look through years of discussions here and other forums,and groan loudly. Hence,open commincation on a forum can't be stopped,but at least have an avenue where we know we have cave divers talking with cave divers,and only cave diver lurking in the background.

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Pretty optimistic to think that any real controversial topic isn't going to leak out. So then you'll have a bunch of posts with people speaking their mind, secure in the thought that no none cave divers are reading them, that make their way to the general public.

The country can't even keep secrets that endanger lives, even though those entrusted with those secrets reveal them under pain of criminal prosecution, do you really think the contents of this forum are really going to stay private ?

I think we are much better off speaking with the knowledge that the public at large can read what we write.

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Originally Posted by Cali Knucklehead

.... At the same time, I don't want a cavern diver (no offense cavern divers - we were all there at one time in our cave diving lives) to read that 33% of full caver divers don't run primaries or jumps and then think that running lines is a waste. These discussions belong in a place where all the parties completely understand the risks of their actions.

Bruce

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I also agree with this. Although I have learned quite a bit about stuff on the public forums, I can also see where having some private discussions, consider it 'pre-release', would benefit the whole community.

As for as GOBS (Good 'ole Boy System), it's already here. I don't take offense to it, I have not been here that long. I have not already 'been there, done that..' There are several of you out there that I respect enormously (even if it is just from your percieved knowledge here @ CDF). I would hate to see information being spoon fed to those who truly want to improve and increase thier own safety.

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Originally Posted by Ben M

I'm against the idea of the private forum, but if it encourages more discussion I would accept it.

I've seen several caution, urge against it, or even state it is against the rules in an effort to quiet others. There are good reasons not to have those discussions, but there are also good reasons to have them.

I love Andrew's posts. Even when I completely disagree, it makes me think about the way I dive. Sometimes, I make adjustments and other times I don't.

Cave training lasts but a few days. Learning is continuous and it needs a number of avenues to reach the population.

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All true statements.

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Originally Posted by BackstageDiver

If you want to have controversial discussions, do it through personally private means: in person, on the phone, private emails or PMs. Don't do it on a public website, even behind a barricade, because certain people will see at least some level of it and probably not like it very much.

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How do you hold 'discussions' through emails/pm's? Information, thoughts, and ideas flow through forums, but become disconnected and lost through emails/pm's when you are involving several participants.

Here is a question / example.

Anthony T posted a 'dive report' from Ginnie / Devil's. While he wasn't exactly "Slammed" for doing so, he was admonished in the second reply to his report for describing certian sections in the front end of the system (cornflakes, expressway, etc..). With the thought that it would increase traffic to those areas and potentially cause more damage? Being that area is one of only a few passages further into the cave, isn't it likely that there will be traffic there anyway, even if just by sheer statistics?

I understand that every effort is made to keep people who don't belong in the systems (as in NON-CAVE-certified divers) from being there. Wouldn't it be common sense that since this particular area is accessible only after a jump or two (the first one around a formation and pretty well hidden from view..), it should be fair game to talk about?

Much like Anthony, I am trying to mark on my map where I have been in Devil's (in all systems, actually). Knowing the proper names for some of the passages has been extremely helpful. We hear about many of the major landmarks, but it is difficult to get anyone to talk about 'exactly' how to get there. It would be nice to have a forum that we could be free to discuss those.

Roger

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Originally Posted by BobK

I think we are much better off speaking with the knowledge that the public at large can read what we write.

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Words of wisdom. Although the "private" forum idea has merit, I think what Bob said is the answer.

Also, what it says on our home page: Be careful, responsible, and mature, both in your posts and how you use anything you read here.