How often do you run a line?

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Not to mention Hansel and Gretel...

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I tried this - the bread crumbs got all soggy and the catfish ate 'em.

Mike

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Originally Posted by aainslie

...There's a huge difference between "always run a line" (that's as likely to be obeyed by most divers as the speed limit is by drivers) and "Here is a way to think about when it's a dumb idea to NOT run a line".

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I don't agree that running a line and the speed limit are exactly the same, or really the same for the context of this argument... er discussion. I'm not sure what the correct analogy would be, but I don't think it's the speed limit.

Of course, I'm still a rookie. I always run a line and I plan on doing that into the foreseeable future. It's a personal preference.

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Originally Posted by FW

We have, but Andrew wants to drag the entire cave diving community into his insane techniques. We won't censor or ban him, but I will say that if you follow him, you will end up a Lemming.

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So, if someone besides Andrew put this pole up would there be a problem?

I don't agree with not running a line as it seems to contribute to deaths in my eyes. But to say that open discussion about it is a bad thing doesn't sit well with me either. Obviously there are people doing it besides Andrew.

The argument that these discussions should happen in private seems like a bad idea too. If you're not in the in crowd, you'd miss the opportunity to hear and discuss this. Or is it only the in crowd that should benefit from discussions and Darwin will take care of the others?

EDIT: FW, didn't mean to insinuate that you were against open discussion like this read. It seems that others were though.

How many land owners are close to shutting down access to their properties and why might be a good discussion topic. Engaging those land owners and letting them know that these sorts of discussions take place may not be bad either.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

No flippant reply,but where is the dividing line of new cave diver and someone familiar. The only reason I mention this because cave diving is peer pressure oriented. I know intro divers who fight for the right to dive doubles at a site because they don't want to stand out as someone different while heading to the water with a single tank. I have seen newer cave divers just nod when the dive plan calls for a visual because they don't want to be the person in the team to say they aren't comfortable with a dive plan,and show their newness to their buddies. Claim of familiarity of a cave system,is something that concerns me because complacancy seems to occur. I know two very veteran cave divers who have died in the last 5-6 years because they knew the system extremely well,and evidence suggests they had some very creative rules for gas planning. Where do we leave new cave diver and enter familiarity-is it 200 cave dives?....

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Peer pressure is huge in everything in life, and cave diving is no different. So are you saying that more should be drilled into people about the dangers of peer pressure during cave diving? I know of at least one story where it killed someone (and their peer pressuring buddy) in Mexico years back.


All I know is that I don't know a lot.

Chris

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Originally Posted by quarrydiver

If one wants to make an analogy to the above water world, I would equate running lines as the equivalent of wearing a seat belt in a car. Unless one is involved in some sort of accident/collision, the seat belt really doesn't do much; i.e. one can get away with not wearing a seat belt much of the time. But it only requires one incident to make the difference between coming out of an accident unscathed versus a severe injury or worse. That's why not wearing a seat belt is illegal.

Marius

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Marius Clore
NACD Equipment & Technology Chair

All opinions are personal.

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I agree with the seat belt analogy, however there are two differences I think, 1. by not wearing a seat belt you are not putting other people's lives at risk and, by not running a jump reel you are, 2. Roads and highways will not be closed if someone dies because he or she was not wearing a seat belt, but caves could be closed by weary land owners after someone drowns.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

What does it cost you to always run a line? 1-2 minutes as opposed to a possible disaster, I think this poll so far if accurate has revealed a serious disregard for following a very basic safety rule, 32% don't always run a reel at jumps!!!! and some of you actually think this is somehow ok or acceptable? Not running a reel from OW to the mainline if the mainline is almost in OW (although I don't agree) I can understand, but doing visual jumps, what the hell is wrong with you?

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Well, there is a greater cost if you're doing a loop. If you're doing one dive and doing a loop you have to go back and get the reel on a separate dive. (Or post up asking someone to fetch the reel for you).

I'm not saying that's a good idea, or that big a deal, or that I like to do that (I don't), but I'm thinking it might be a contributing factor to why some people don't use a reel at some gaps.

I would like to add something else too, I read many replies here saying this and that about Andrew, now I don't know Andrew and his advanced techniques. The poll is not about some super advanced scooter deep trimix gas planning deco computer theory, it is about the most basic safety rule in cave diving -always have a continuous line to OW- However I am reading that over 33% sometimes do and don't run jumps, don't you think that THAT is a huge problem in the cave diving community? I read in reply that Andrew does this or that but that is not the point of this poll at all, the point is is that MORE people are NOT running a line than ARE, to me this seems like a big problem and instead of arguing over Andrews advanced techniques, instructors and peers alike should try and figure out how it got this bad, and try to fix what looks like a pretty dangerous mindset.
I live in the DR and if one of the people who voted to "not always run a jump", does a visual jump in a cave here or anywhere in the world and drowns as a result of such risky practices don't you think that there is a real mindset problem.
I have heard from various divers in Mex that divers from FL have sometimes done visuals in caves in Mex too, I am not saying this is a US divers problem as I am sure it happens in other countries too but if the above poll result if accurate I would think you guys in the US have a safety issue right now and should try and change people's mindset and approach to the most basic cave diving safety guideline.

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Well, there is a greater cost if you're doing a loop. If you're doing one dive and doing a loop you have to go back and get the reel on a separate dive. (Or post up asking someone to fetch the reel for you).

I'm not saying that's a good idea, or that big a deal, or that I like to do that (I don't), but I'm thinking it might be a contributing factor to why some people don't use a reel at some gaps.

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I see your point but to me it is just that some people get lazy and would rather save time as opposed to increasing safety.

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Originally Posted by aainslie

My reason for asking is that I believe that this needs to be addresed more formally. If a majority of people don't run lines, yet there is no agreed basis on which to decide when to run them and when not, we're all reinventing the wheel on our own. And avoidable accidents could be... well, avoided if we had a better set of rules when deciding whether to run one or not.

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Originally Posted by phillip1

...but if the above poll result if accurate I would think you guys in the US have a safety issue right now and should try and change people's mindset and approach to the most basic cave diving safety guideline.

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I think it is interesting that to this one point, both sides seem to agree -- if there is a significant number of divers "modifying" the rules, there should be some discussion on how to resolve it, because everyone agrees that this is not good.

One camp thinks the rules could be improved and the other camp thinks the "end-users" need to improve. In either case, you're still working on the same problem.

I don't necessarily think that the rules should be modified, but I also think that an honest discussion of the rules can be a good thing. Maybe they end up being modified for the better and maybe the review re-enforces that the rules are perfectly fine as they are. In either case, I think it could result in a renewed acceptable and more strict adherence to whatever the outcome is.

Just my 02,
Jeff

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Originally Posted by icestac

I think it is interesting that to this one point, both sides seem to agree -- if there is a significant number of divers "modifying" the rules, there should be some discussion on how to resolve it, because everyone agrees that this is not good.

One camp thinks the rules could be improved and the other camp thinks the "end-users" need to improve. In either case, you're still working on the same problem.

I don't necessarily think that the rules should be modified, but I also think that an honest discussion of the rules can be a good thing. Maybe they end up being modified for the better and maybe the review re-enforces that the rules are perfectly fine as they are. In either case, I think it could result in a renewed acceptable and more strict adherence to whatever the outcome is.

Just my 02,
Jeff

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Very well said Jeff.....

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Originally Posted by phillip1

I see your point but to me it is just that some people get lazy and would rather save time as opposed to increasing safety.

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I agree with you. I was just saying......

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Originally Posted by Squirrel Girl

Well, there is a greater cost if you're doing a loop. If you're doing one dive and doing a loop you have to go back and get the reel on a separate dive. (Or post up asking someone to fetch the reel for you).

I'm not saying that's a good idea, or that big a deal, or that I like to do that (I don't), but I'm thinking it might be a contributing factor to why some people don't use a reel at some gaps.

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A good solution to this would put a "T" at all the popular circuits (loops) like the "Merry-Go-Round" at Little River.