Not politics, I have no skin in the game, just an aversion to those claiming some credit for the courage and bravery of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
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Not politics, I have no skin in the game, just an aversion to those claiming some credit for the courage and bravery of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Richard Harris is the medical doctor who's been in the cave evaluating the kids. It all makes sense now. I thought it would have made sense to have a few of the Aussies go!
https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/th...08-p4zq9r.html
I will be doing an on camera interview at CNN around 12:00 pm tomorrow.
Just my thoughts because I can't even fathom the stress and fatigue those people are going through but again just my thoughts I would want to pick the strongest of the children first to make sure the rescue operation goes as smoothly as it can and gives time to work the kinks out for the ones that may need extra help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddiver
Here is the weather forecast for that general area. I am not sure exactly where the cave is.
https://weather.com/weather/5day/l/THXX0580:1:TH
The cave in on the northern border.Quote:
Originally Posted by donharter
One more out, total of 5. https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/09/asia/...ntl/index.html
The Guardian just confirmed sixth boy is out
Eastern standard time?Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
The Guardian and other news organizations reporting that a fifth and sixth boy have been brought out of the cave.
Listening to BBC news, that is what was done. Some in the media questioned this approach,but logic is soundQuote:
Originally Posted by LakeCountyDiver
Yes, sorry I didn't add that. Eastern daylight time to be exact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear6
Up to 7 boys out now!
Nice, Forrest! While you are out there, could you straighten CNN out on this "oxygen tanks" business? Even in their latest article (https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/09/asia/...ntl/index.html) they keeps speaking of divers breathing "oxygen" from "oxygen tanks" (a potentially dangerous misconception, if an uninitiated attempts to dive with his grandma's O2 tank based on what he read). It looks like at least BBC finally got their facts straight since they are now using the term "air" and "air tanks" in their current articles.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I already did.Quote:
Originally Posted by oceancurrent
The interview is now 12:15pm EDT.
They got one more out, but have suspended operations for the day. I suspect for the same reason as yesterday, to get more full tanks into the cave.
Total of 8 out at this time.
I'm glad they are having such fantastic success with the rescue efforts. I don't mind tight restrictions, but if you put me in one of these, I'd probably slit my own throat.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/08/us/el...cue/index.html
Not to mention that since it isn't flexible, it probably couldn't negotiate the narrow passage in one of the sumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver
While I am certain that Elon Musk means well, it is an example of how energy and focus can be diverted by people who just don't understand the nature of tight passages in caves.
The idea of shepherding the victims between two appropriately trained divers makes the most sense to me. Having said that I confess that I am not there. However a tight cave with zero visibility against a syphon is something that even trained cave divers do not usually seek out.
I wish the teams involved all possible luck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeCountyDiver
I just saw a report that said Dr Harris recommended taking out the weakest first. Since he is one of the rescue divers, I suspect he brought out the weakest ones first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop
CNN has pushed the broadcast back to 12:25 EDT :roll:
A mate of mine posted this video of some kind of rescue, https://www.facebook.com/11255867214...0098123723394/ surely this can?t be actual footage of the kids coming out can it?
French sump rescue training from many years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by MinimalMayhem
ThxQuote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
It is amazing how silt free that cave is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
Hope they can get enough tanks/supplies in to get the remaining five out tomorrow and not limit it to four.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Love to see it...Can you provide link if/when possible...No T.V. here. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I am not as certain as you about Mr. Musk's intentions, but your point otherwise is excellent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Vlahos
I am thinking that (hopefully) after all of the adventurers are safe, they should be issued honorary sump diver certifications.
I wonder how they are managing two-way traffic through the tight passages, as it seems there is a good bit of effort going on to ferry things in and out.
Usually in complex caves like this, travel and logistics will be coordinated by telephone. I'd hope they have phone lines run through the length and phones at choke points and supply points. The Brits typically use a through-ground phone system, which works well in Britain, but don't know what they have here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdave
That is the most amazing effort I have ever seen. best of luck to all!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
Does anyone know if the kids are diving positive pressure or non positive pressure AGA FFMs?
Can't imagine untrained and sedated kids using non-positive pressure FFMs.
Michael
Their website mentioned they brought over some "Heyphones".
http://www.caverescue.org.uk/luang-n...scue-thailand/
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
It appears that I was right.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
https://nypost.com/2018/07/09/newest...eed-from-cave/
Yep, heyphone, molephone, the brits have been using through-ground phones for years. They're also starting to use the newer Nicolas, expensive but really good when you can connect up the antennas. All good stuff, but nothing beats a copper connection (once the line is run).Quote:
Originally Posted by Napalm
Just looked up the info on the Heyphone, and they've apparently gone out of style. They'll still work but are recomending Nicolas or the swiss data phone (the name escapes me) for new builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
http://bcra.org.uk/creg/heyphone/Quote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
More on Dr Harris: https://nypost.com/2018/07/09/aussie...d-cave-rescue/
Yep, read the note at the bottom.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdave
On CBS news last night, it was reported that the 25-year old coach was one of the first four to be brought out (he was one of the weakest because he had been giving his shares of food & water to the boys). I haven't heard this reported anywhere else though, and I consistently see that four boys + the coach are still inside the cave.
Has anyone heard definitively either way? It's not really important, I'm just curious.
Thanks for confirming.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I think it would be something that could only be evaluated on an individual basis. While the idea of benefits between strongest or weakest first can be discussed in a generalized manner - only those on site know the individual conditions of the kids.
ie: If there's one child who's weak but is showing signs of getting stronger then it might be better for that person to wait until last (give them time to get stronger). The next child could be constantly getting weaker with no signs of improvement - which in their case the best chance for them might be to take the risk and get them out as soon as possible. Each child would need to be evaluated on their unique circumstances.
As such I'm relieved to hear that Dr Harry is on the scene and can make the call for each child that he's seen - as opposed to doctors that are sitting in armchairs outside the cave with no first hand knowledge of the kids conditions, let alone what they're in for with the trip out. Nothing against other non cave diving doctors on site (Nor anything against discussing such techniques - as I'm sure there's going to be a lot learned and discussed afterwards for the future that will come out of this situation), but having people with experience in both areas is priceless and invaluable.
Thanks everyone here that's been posting updates of the situation. This has been my go-to place (over the media) to find what's going on.
Well I think UTD Asia wins for the absolute worst post during this event.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...55631954526851
The rescuers should have added a z-block manifold just to spice it up. Who doesnt want one more failure point.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm really hoping that I wake up in the morning and the remaining 4 boys and coach have been evacuated and are safe!
David
This rescue has definitely made this forum more active, both in terms of users and guests. Good to see so many back on here. May God's grace shine on Thailand again tomorrow.
Folks what is the risk of that 15 inch pinch point collapsing? This is so scary, I can?t imagine what everyone involved is going through.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It seems to be a pretty stable cave, so I think the risk is low.Quote:
Originally Posted by kleenhouts
I am not on farcebook, can someone post part of what is said there? Or post a direct link to UTD Asia?Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Ten out now, and the plan it to get all the boys, coach, and remaining medical team out today. I assume the medical will dive out on their own, since that is the way they went in.
Up to 11 now. https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/th...-live-updates/
Great video, showing a lot of the obstacles, and some cave enlargement going on. https://www.cbsnews.com/video/update...e-in-thailand/
Appears that FB link is currently unavailable ...Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafan
Hi guys,
As my name suggests I don't belong here! But I needed to sign up to the forum so that I could express my heartfelt gratitude and thanks for the updates and insights you have all provided in relation to this incredibly moving story. As a mum to 15 and 13 year old boys I cannot imagine what everyone is going through. I've been checking this thread hourly since it started, as well as the excellent Guardian blog. There's a thread about this on Mumsnet and your thread here has often been referred to there, with the URL copied and pasted many times.
Fingers crossed the boys, their coach and the adults make it out safely today.
Thank you again for this invaluable source of information over the last week or so.
Karen
There is a Twitter report that the last boy and coach are now out. I have not seen a news report to back that up.
Now there is a news story saying they are all out.. https://twitter.com/CBSThisMorning?r...Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Simply amazing. Wow! Congrats to all involved!
Best news to wake up to! All of them made it out!
That is absolutely amazing. Awesome job by everyone. I really did not think it would end up that they all made it out.
What an amazing international effort this has been. Congrats and Thanks to everyone who helped with logistics, planning, on scene support, and of course the rescue team themselves! So great to hear this is coming to such a successful close. My heart goes out to the family of the fallen Thai Navy Seal who came back to the ranks just to assist in this effort. I think he would have been extremely proud of this result....
Awesome news!
I wonder how much this rescue cost. Both to the Thai government, and all the foreign aid they had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Mike
Forgive me if this has already been discussed.
I was just thinking about how difficult it must have been to prepare these kids for scuba. Something that just occurred to me is ear clearing (valsalva). That must have been challenging. I think I read somewhere that one of the sumps was fairly deep (98ft). And it's also my understanding the children were wearing full face masks, of which I have no experience. How does one valsalva with a full face mask?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
I'd estimate it probably cost about the same as the amount of the free drinks, meals, and Thai vacations that Mike, John, and team will be receiving here on out. ;-)
I hadn't even considered the ear clearing part. I am not sure I would know how to clear my ears in a full face mask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear6
This article has some good graphics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear6
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...-a3882286.html
It shows one section being under 16 feet of water. And a good graphic of the tight junction.
Depends on the mask, but most have something to block your lower nostrils. The AGA has a rubber nose block. The Draeger is really hard to describe, easier to just look.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
http://img.nauticexpo.com/images_ne/...6-10752575.jpg
The whole thing is amazing. I could not have imagined they would get them all out so quickly.
Prayers for the family of the Thai diver who passed away, but they can be proud that he gave his life to save others.
I was really impressed with how they planned and stuck with their plan, taking things slowly and carefully over three days to get everyone out. One rescue team death, unfortunately, and still some of the rescue team to get out, but it did seem carefully executed and controlled, at least after the first day or two.
At the risk of severely derailing this good thread: The NACD weighs in (claim to have 300 members -- lifetimes?):
http://www.tampabay.com/news/Florida...well_169860115
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDiver
They should send the rescuers some pizza in congratulations
The drawing says one area is too tight to wear a mask. Makes me suspicious about the whole article.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdave
They got out so quickly because there are over a dozen British, and Australian sump divers there, plus a very large group of Navy Seals shuttling fresh tanks for them.
All I can say is :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDiver
This video shows the Ocean Reef solution for the valsalva maneuver while wearing a FFM. Hopefully the masks used during the rescue had some facsimile of this method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-2K...keHickoryScuba
Since Forrest mentioned costs, it's worth mentioning that there's a large component of fully volunteer cave rescuers involved in the process. If you haven't already, please consider a donation here:
http://www.caverescue.org.uk/
These guys are probably the most underspoken resources for stuff like this and are happy to put their lives on hold for whatever work it takes to help people. You're not going to see them go on speaking tours after this, so donations go a long way to make sure they're not taking a big hit on their own gear, travel costs and sort for the next one.
If the Aussies, or other volunteers involved in the rescue have any relevant non-self-serving pages soliciting donations then please post them here.
That looks pretty complicated. However at 16' deep, it would be uncomfortable, but possible not to clear at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael F
Dr Harry was planning to go diving this week anyway. I suspect this is a justifiable expense. However the CDAA of which he is a member can probably accept donations. http://www.cavedivers.com.auQuote:
Originally Posted by jlillest
Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
Yeah, article isn't so impressive. Also the 16 dives to become cave certified really doesn't look that good to the average person. Sounds super easy. I think people that are choosing to contribute to articles and news agencies should pick their words with more thought put into it. Saying something like it takes tech training first, then leads into an extensive cave training program which can take months to years to finish sounds alot better. When you team 16 dives to be trained with the fact that 12 people were "rapidly taught to cave dive" as part of the rescue effort can lead to alot of people thinking how easy it is.
I'm interested to hear about the woman quoted and her no-mount Ginnie dive. I've never heard her name before.
Agreed, most likely not a high priority in this instance but I was curious to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
They have two fixed hard rubber "bung" type things near your nose, when you push on the mask they block your nose so you can clear. If you have had nasal/septum surgery in the past it hurts like hell (well me anyway)......
The whole rescue was an amazing thing to hear about! This post has been a great supply of credible information! I don’t know if any of the divers are on this forum but nevertheless thank you to all involved with the rescue! With all of the publicity about cave diving and the success of this rescue, does anyone believe there will be an increase in divers wanting to start cave diving or non-divers wanting to start diving to begin the road to cave certification?
There are a couple that are members here, but I suspect they will be resting for the next several days :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pullnglide
CNN is now saying all of the rescuers are out as well. Great news and great job!
I received the following excerpt after sending a donation to the BCRC. I thought some of it may be informative to everyone here:
Seven experienced, voluntary British Cave Rescue cave divers and three other British Cave Rescue volunteers went to Thailand to support the Thai authorities and other international rescuers in their attempt to rescue the boys. Cave diving is inherently risky and is only used for rescue when it is the only, or safest, option.
The rescue attempt of diving the boys out started on Sunday at 10am Thai time and we believe that now, after three days, all the boys, their coach and all rescuers are safely out of the cave. Sadly, the retired Thai Navy SEAL diver, Saman Kunan lost his life whist helping with the rescue effort and our thoughts are with his family and comrades.
The British Cave Rescue Council and its fifteen voluntary cave rescue teams in the UK are mainly funded by donations. Most of the rescuers pay for their own personal safety and caving/diving kit. We expect to be able to help our volunteers in Thailand with their costs, replace lost and damaged kit and fund new rescue equipment due to the donations received.
Many organisations and countries helped the Thai authorities and the last three days have demonstrated how committed and effective multinational rescue team volunteers can be. May the rescuers always be safe and may they always be as successful.
Donations can be made from their main site at http://www.caverescue.org.uk/
What an epic rescue! Hats off to the many who made it all happen and to the cave divers involved. It's still very sad that a diver lost his life. It underscores the very high risks that the navy divers accepted by going in with limited cave training and equipment. The press and VIP publicity frenzy was quite a sight to behold. Even at the end of it, most journalists still can't get their facts straight about O2 vs Air in diving. I hope that the inevitable documentary and Hollywood movie that are for sure in the works will do a better job at educating the public.
The "Beeb" is reporting that the British cave divers pushed the cave to find the boys, and came up with the plan to rescue them. A Thai official said he called them after seals were having trouble getting into the cave.
It’s an amazing result. I was very pessimistic. I thought they might get one or two out and was very concerned that the team would lose people trying to rescue boys who panicked etc. Just extraordinary. Thoughts and prayers for the diver who died there.
This rescue event has been a true miracle.....weather held off, they were able to pump out the cave a lot (per one of the cave divers on an interview I heard today) which made it much easier as the rescue work progressed....AND a whole bunch of true hero divers who found the lost team, stayed with them until rescue plans were formed and PERFECTED, as evidenced by the results!
One question has come to mind as the rescues were ongoing. The maps in the latest article are contradictory as to where the no mount restriction is. One shows it near Pattaya Beach, far into the cave, the other shows it being much nearer to the entrance, at the upstream side of a dry or semi-dry chamber. Was the restriction submerged initially? Was the cave pumped down enough to allow passage of the restriction in air space? One of the videos, the one Forrest eluded to, showed a Thai rescuer with a rock drill enlarging what looked like a very tight restriction.....I wonder if this was the one in question and it was elevated above water level enough as the cave was pump down to get the machinery in there to enlarge the restriction? Hopefully there will be some explanations as the effort gets discussed and critiqued.
All in all a very amazing job by all and almost (Thai divers death) totally unexpected positive results.
I'd suggest waiting for the rescue divers to finish up and pack up their gear and get home - and hear directly from them - then we'll know for sure. I've seen the media report first hand maps of caves before and completely stuff it up. (I wonder how much is misunderstanding/mishearing, and how often they just go with "we don't know but we'll make something up to put out there". I don't know how the media works - but I know the end result is often far from correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by phreaticus53
As for the rescue - I'm amazed at the result. I personally was slighly pessimistic that it wouldn't be a complete success and that there would be difficulties, and I've never been happier to be wrong! I note that apparently an anti-anxiety medication was given to each kid before they were extracted from the cave. I can't help but wonder how much that attributed to helping with the success, and without the medication whether or not things may have been significantly different. I think most of us here would be well aware of how deadly anxiety/panic is in a cave environment - and it seems a smart call - one I never thought of - to use medication to help avoid that.
Way to go to everyone who was involved! An incredible effort with a brilliant outcome. My prayers go out to the family for the Navy seal diver who gave his life during the operation.
The costs of the rescue also include compensation to the nearby farmers whose fields were flooded and crops destroyed by the dumping of all the water pumped out of the cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by FW
It wouldn't have been possible in that short time, without the help of Dr Harry.Quote:
Originally Posted by adza
Meet the Wet Mules, the Aussie dive mates at the heart of the Thai cave rescue
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-1...helped/9981378
http://www.wetmules.com/
Check out the "Friends of the Wet Mules" :-) http://www.wetmules.com/Quote:
Originally Posted by ynot
And, sadly, there are those that need to hush up and go away:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-1...ion-ch/9979166
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdave
He had good intentions but he's upset because he probably doesn't here "NO" too much. The rescue team was going to use the safest plan possible which I'm sure wasn't an easy decision. Not as despicable as the UTD Asia post. I think they've removed it.
Elon Musk, as do 99.999% of the people on the planet, does not understand what a "no mount" restriction is. I've tried to explain it to people who asked questions, and many friends, almost all of whom are divers (and even a few retired cave divers)....all I get is wide eyes and a look of total horror!
An excellent point, but I'm not sure he even understands that a real cave looks nothing like the smooth straight tunnels he is familiar with. In any case, this is a good time for him to hush up about his "submarine" and offer thanks and congratulations to the true heroes that went in there and saved the kids and coach. And he could pony up a few bucks in donations as well. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by phreaticus53
Since the rescue operation is out of the way now, maybe he can talk them into letting him use the cave for testing. Let him climb in, and then his design team can hump that thing back and forth. Since it's loaded, I think 6 round trips would be a fair enough test, then he can talk all the crap he wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdave
I think if he or any of his engineers just had to move a couch up some stairs a few times in their life, they'd have at least some idea of how fun this wouldn't be.
Here is a sad news story about the father of Dr. Harris: https://www.aol.com/article/news/201...eath/23479808/
Very sad. I bet no one has ever gone out more proud of their son.
Brilliant!Quote:
Originally Posted by kotik
Here's a question, has anyone heard this addressed in any of the articles? From what I'm seeing now they were sedated, bound in a stretcher and towed / brought out wearing full face masks.
Reports said some were completely asleep while others were wiggling their fingers.
So my question is -- how did they equalize if they were sedated?
But Stanton definitely knows what a no mount restriction is, so if he actually encouraged Musk to continue the development, the plan probably wasn't as futile as lots of divers have suggested? If it was hopeless, surely Stanton would have told him to just can it?Quote:
Originally Posted by phreaticus53